Talking Tocchet

[rt]

I'm not thrilled with Tocchet, but lol at the posters who gave Tip 5 years of rope and are giving Tocchet 10 games.

I already liked this. But it didn't feel like enough. So Thumbs Up!

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I'm not thrilled with Tocchet, but lol at the posters who gave Tip 5 years of rope and are giving Tocchet 10 games.

We gave Tippett 5 years of AHL caliber players, at best. Hence all the Dave Moss jokes.

Honestly, who cares what Tippett would have done. That's a straw man fight. He's gone and the team is floundering under the new coach.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

We need to give Tocchet a chance to win with an actual NHL goalie versus Swiss cheese Domingue. Anyone still think he's anything more than a backup?
QUOTE]

Its a given that we need adequate goal tending. My issue is the poor play in all phases of the game. Good goal tending won't change the way we play. This team plays stupid, as Roenick said. They can't put passes tape to tape, and they don't know what to do with the puck when it is on their stick, for the most part. They haven't a clue about defensive responsibilities.

 

[Lilhoody]

These first ten games are probably more frustrating than they would be otherwise, because expectations (real or false) were higher. Tochhett and Co. should be given a chance beyond 10 games, without a starting goalie. But, as discussed above, they should adapt based on personnel, skill level and goal tending. I feel like a single system, "my way or the highway" approach doesn't work. Not just because the team may not be able to implement it, but because teams will adapt to it and it will no longer be novel and fresh, it becomes predictable and defend-able/vulnerable.

That said, aside from GT and D, a new, faster O system can't work on theory alone. If the players don't have the vision, cognitive skill and experience to make decisions at a given speed, then the system falters and errors abound. I liken this to close quarter battle, and some theories of from conflict/war could be used to make this argument.

Essentially, no amount of conditioning or skating lessons are going to fix tape to tape passes at max speed. They won't help a young and inexperienced (per the new system) see his option/s ( and he should have more than one in mind) while under pressure or about to take a hit. This comes from experience, in practice and games ; whether they be AHL or NHL. That's not to say better skating and conditioning aren't important, just they they wont fix the vision or lack of , while playing at higher speeds.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

After watching all those goals last night though, I have to say I'm starting to disagree with the "no structure" idea to what Tocc is running. That doesn't mean what he's doing is good necessarily, but I think there's a pretty clear pattern in there. On the breakout the first thing that happens tends to be the high forward darts off as fast as he possibly can once possession is gained. I should note that this has actually caused problems on occasion because the recovery of the puck could be only temporary, especially with how our D is playing. It also causes things like Domi to get two breakaways in a game he doesn't convert on....Which was something I was complaining about a week ago or so, the team isn't finishing a lot of their best chances.

Then the D or center attempt to make a stretch pass, almost universally at least from the circles to the red line. Lately they've been going D to D for a first pass a little more. That first forward out, if he catches the pass (they bobble them a lot) will attempt to carry the puck in. If there is too much traffic the forward will pass east-west up high to the next forward in. This is often Domi to Keller or Keller to Domi. Now the problems are caused when teams are trapping against us the first forward in is often up against 3 players right in his face. That causes the passes to get bungled. And since you have two forwards (sometimes three) blasting into the zone at maximum attack to appropriate a rally term, when it blows it up goes real bad real fast.

This is good. What you describe is accurate and exemplifies the lack of options and support in the system, which in turn can easily be described as a system lacking structure. Support is the big issue here.

I went to the Roadrunner game last night and witnessed the same chaotic play, with some great net minding by Langhammer and a strong offensive push in the third period.

I"m not saying this system will never work, but you had best be better than your opposition and that definitely includes the goalie.

 

[SniperHF]

I can agree with most of what you are saying regarding the offense and defense. My only area of question comes in the last few paragraphs.

Have we ever, in the last 8 years, had the personnel to run lines 2 and 3 (or for that matter, 1 and 4? We had a lot of good players, but there was a time when Korpikoski was to be relied on as our #2 LW, right? Yes, this is a younger and less mentally tough team than the others, but top to bottom, this is our best roster in terms of talent level. To me, there is an element of the coaching abilities that create that difference. Yes, we had bad years, which honestly coincided with our worst rosters.

I was speaking specifically of the ability to run this new system with these players. I don't think talent has much to do with it, it's more about fit and acclimation. The Sedin twins in their prime were enormously talented players but they'd be completely miscast in this system. Arguably a guy like Strome would be.

For whatever the ability level of the previous rosters before all the tanking they could certainly play a defense first counter attack offense based system.

Also it's easy to dunk on players like Korpse now, but at one point he wasn't too different a player from who Rieder is right now. And Rieder regularly plays in our top 6. Dvorak is a black hole offensively right now so we don't have a 2 C either.

But in the end I think we're saying some similar things?
I'm saying maybe a few of our current lines need to be able to walk before they can run. That might mean just a little less GO GO GO once the puck turns around. Or some more fungibility on how rigid the maximum attack plan is for a given situation.

 

[RABBIT]

remember when we all used to like each other?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

remember when we all used to like each other?

Who doesn't like who?

Some they Doan like jakey, some Doan like rt, but everybody Doan like Hinterland?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Hey 'Yotes fans. I thought this might be of some interest to you guys given the rough start:

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/10/recurring-issue-slow-starts-for-new-nhl.html?m=1

 

[_Del_]

I honestly think we look pretty good most nights. Our special teams suck, no surprise, but our biggest problem is the guy who has started most of our games has a sub-.850 save percentage. We're giving up more than a goal a game than a mediocre .910 percentage. It's killing us.

 

[Summer Rose]

Who doesn't like who?

Some they Doan like jakey, some Doan like rt, but everybody Doan like Hinterland?

Personally, I hate that @Muppet guy

 

[Muppet]

Personally, I hate that @Muppet guy

oi you watch it ya cheeky f***

 

[Summer Rose]

oi you watch it ya cheeky ****

I'm going to fly to New Zealand and throw a rugby ball at you.

 

[Muppet]

I'm going to fly to New Zealand and throw a rugby ball at you.

Maybe then I could teach NHL play by play announcers that when there's a board battle and they say "Rugby scrum along the boards", that it is in fact absolutely nothing like a rugby scrum.

Anyway, there's been a few legitimate concerns relating to the coaching so far, but I'm more than willing to wait it out and see what happens once we actually start playing in front of an NHL goaltender. I'd throw Wedgewood straight into the fire and see what happens, because Domingue is literally Swiss cheese right now. I'd even be pretty confident in scoring against Domingue and I haven't played since 2005.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Hey 'Yotes fans. I thought this might be of some interest to you guys given the rough start:

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/10/recurring-issue-slow-starts-for-new-nhl.html?m=1

Interesting, but unfortunately winless through 11 games is much worst than the other records in that piece lol. Still worth checking out.

 

[Mosby]

I honestly think we look pretty good most nights. Our special teams suck, no surprise, but our biggest problem is the guy who has started most of our games has a sub-.850 save percentage. We're giving up more than a goal a game than a mediocre .910 percentage. It's killing us.

Surprisingly our PP is 15th (Keller?). PK is dead last but no surprise given we don't have a goalie.

 

[rt]

Who doesn't like who?

Some they Doan like jakey, some Doan like rt, but everybody Doan like Hinterland?

And here I thought I was universally popular. Bubble. Burst.

 

[offkilter]

Maybe then I could teach NHL play by play announcers that when there's a board battle and they say "Rugby scrum along the boards", that it is in fact absolutely nothing like a rugby scrum.

The more apt rugby analogy would be a ruck and maul right?

 

[Muppet]

The more apt rugby analogy would be a ruck and maul right?

That's more accurate, yes.

 

[CC96]

That's more accurate, yes.

Of course you would know m8, ya god damned kiwi, you.

 

[Summer Rose]

The more apt rugby analogy would be a ruck and maul right?

I'd imagine there's no hockey equivalent of a maul. A board battle is like a ruck, since no one's technically in possession and they're fighting for possession. A scrum would be vaguely similar to a faceoff, except instead of an official dropping the puck, your teammate (or an opposing player, depending on whose "faceoff" it is) drops the puck, and in practice you're allowed to "cheat" and drop the puck towards your center (scrum halves... well, "half backs" to Muppet, are supposed to roll the ball into the scrum straight, but in practice they roll it towards their own team and no one cares).

 

[Muppet]

Of course you would know m8, ya god damned kiwi, you.

You merely adopted the Rugby.. I was born into it.. molded by it

Now I never watch it because I'm too busy shitposting about the Coyotes with you guys. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting, but unfortunately winless through 11 games is much worst than the other records in that piece lol. Still worth checking out.

When you compare the talent those teams had up against the current Yotes it's pretty intriguing.

 

[Matias Maccete]

When you compare the talent those teams had up against the current Yotes it's pretty intriguing.

True, especially in goal. I think just about all of us expected and were ready for a slow start similar to some of the starts he listed, but slow and win less through 11 games are different things.

I'm not giving up on tocchet but I'm not nearly as confident with the hire as I was a few weeks ago.

 

[cobra427]

True, especially in goal. I think just about all of us expected and were ready for a slow start similar to some of the starts he listed, but slow and win less through 11 games are different things.

I'm not giving up on tocchet but I'm not nearly as confident with the hire as I was a few weeks ago.

I knew there was risk in hiring an unproven NHL head coach, that has never had success as a head coach. I also thought Tip did a good job with what he had to work with over the years. I was happy with the Tocc hire knowing the team couldn't likely afford Sutter/Hitch, etc...a proven NHL coach. I didn't think tocc was a for sure uptick over Tip, and he has proven to be the opposite so far, but it is still early.

I think a combination of things has caught the team and Tocc so far. New system, so many young players, and poor goal tending. The NHL, IMHO, in order of importance is: goal tending>defense> mistakes (mostly turnovers)> and then offence. The coach can't control the goal tending, and that is our biggest problem. The D overall has been better lately and I think we will be ok there. The mistakes is the biggest area the coach can impact by making the system easier, make the simple plays and he has to hold players accountable. Our offensive talent is better then the last 20 years, the goals will come, PP will get better.

If we get Raanta back, and he plays better then what we have had, we might get a better picture of what we have as a team and what we have as a coach. I fear Tocc losing the room if the next 10 games or so we only get a few wins. Mentally for the players sake, especially the younger players, we need some wins