Talking Tocchet

[The Feckless Puck]

This team, with the current talent level, would have a better record with Tip as the coach. How could they not?

Easy - they could be 0-10-0.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

There are plenty of good coaches who could have elevated us out of last year's quagmire. Unfortunately, Chayka didn't choose wisely.

 

[rt]

Well, I just did. Anyway, we'll see what the rest of the season brings.

I'm saying he was a highly qualified candidate. I'm not saying he was a good hire.

 

[SniperHF]

New thread for Tocchet chatter as it was taking over!

 

[Matias Maccete]

Should've hired Nelson. Of course if we hired him he would suck and tocchet would be a hall of fame coach. I don't think we as a franchise make poor decisions, it's more like whatever decision we make will be poor if only because we made it. It's like a magic power, but it's only application is infinite ineptitude.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

At what point does it become apparent that Tocchet doesn't know how to run a team? 20 games, 30 games? A season?

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

Well Chayka can either fire Tocchet in the next week but then he gets fired too; or he can give him a goalie and see what happens.

Third option is wait and see.

And pray. Prayers. Lots of them.

Then either Raanta is the saviour. Or if Raanta is not, Chayka can then fire Tocchet and might save himself.

 

[XX]

Should've hired Nelson. Of course if we hired him he would suck and tocchet would be a hall of fame coach. I don't think we as a franchise make poor decisions, it's more like whatever decision we make will be poor if only because we made it. It's like a magic power, but it's only application is infinite ineptitude.

The logic in hiring Tocchet (winning program) was pretty faulty. Some guys are assistants for a reason. I stated that I prefer they hired someone with a positive HC track record like Nelson but they went with the PR boost pick instead of what was probably the right one. They also waited way too long to complete this entire process.

I see positives and a couple stinkers aside I've liked what I'm seeing. There's just a handful of players kneecapping this team right now, including the goalies. Can't fire him until you at least attempt change or get Raanta back.

Well Chayka can either fire Tocchet in the next week but then he gets fired too; or he can give him a goalie and see what happens.

Third option is wait and see.

And pray. Prayers. Lots of them.

Then either Raanta is tha saviour.

Or if not, he fires Tocchet but might save himself.

I don't think he's in danger. His post Tippett moves have all worked out. His draft picks have worked out spectacularly. I think it's clear to Barroway that OEL is playing like shit and the goalies are shit, so expectations need to be tempered.

As long as they don't quit like they did against the Rangers, ride it out.

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

I agree, I do not see any benefit in firing Tocchet. I really don't. But if it was me, you got to give him a goalie as I don't have a great deal of confidence that Raanta will be fully healthy any time soon; and last thing we need is to rush him out of desperation.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I agree, I do not see any benefit in firing Tocchet. I really don't. But if it was me, you got to give him a goalie as I don't have a great deal of confidence that Raanta will be fully healthy any time soon; and last thing we need is to rush him out of desperation.

Adequate goal tending will give us a few wins, but look at what the team is doing in all three zones. Poor puck control in the offensive zone. Poor PP. Neutral zone turnovers time and again. Poor defense of the blue line. Inability to regain the puck in the defensive zone, inability to play a coordinated defense. Inability to clear when pressured. D zone turnovers. None of these problems will resolve with better goal tending.

 

[Toadie]

Umm, we really dont know honestly what went on in the background for hirings. Maybe RT was the best person who wanted the job? Rt has a strong resume, change does take time. I still have faith.

Also the departure of Tip really should have nothing to do with RT. The Yotes needed change, Tip is gone, its really really time to move on.

Lets talk about what improvements we would like to see or helpful points to whats not working.. but please no more

 

[cobra427]

Adequate goal tending will give us a few wins, but look at what the team is doing in all three zones. Poor puck control in the offensive zone. Poor PP. Neutral zone turnovers time and again. Poor defense of the blue line. Inability to regain the puck in the defensive zone, inability to play a coordinated defense. Inability to clear when pressured. D zone turnovers. None of these problems will resolve with better goal tending.

Agreed and that is the part that worries me the most. The poor goal tending has hurt us but we would only have a few wins if it were much better. The team is not playing as a cohesive unit. If you take goal tending out of the picture, this years team is worse then last years team right now. and they have way more talent. it shouldn't work that way. This years team should be much better, then it has shown so far. We are playing below our talent level unlike in years past when we played at or above are talent level (mostly). We never ever in the Tip era played this far below our talent level

 

[Summer Rose]

I didn't really have a problem with Brown toward the end despite the drop in PP performance. Obviously we had some personnel turnover from the high flying days of having Yandle and OEL to man the point. The PP was never the same after that.

I do think his scheme got a bit stale, teams were starting to go back to their way of playing super aggressive against us on the PP which they could never really handle. But hardly the worst offender around here.


After watching all those goals last night though, I have to say I'm starting to disagree with the "no structure" idea to what Tocc is running. That doesn't mean what he's doing is good necessarily, but I think there's a pretty clear pattern in there. On the breakout the first thing that happens tends to be the high forward darts off as fast as he possibly can once possession is gained. I should note that this has actually caused problems on occasion because the recovery of the puck could be only temporary, especially with how our D is playing. It also causes things like Domi to get two breakaways in a game he doesn't convert on....Which was something I was complaining about a week ago or so, the team isn't finishing a lot of their best chances.

Then the D or center attempt to make a stretch pass, almost universally at least from the circles to the red line. Lately they've been going D to D for a first pass a little more. That first forward out, if he catches the pass (they bobble them a lot) will attempt to carry the puck in. If there is too much traffic the forward will pass east-west up high to the next forward in. This is often Domi to Keller or Keller to Domi. Now the problems are caused when teams are trapping against us the first forward in is often up against 3 players right in his face. That causes the passes to get bungled. And since you have two forwards (sometimes three) blasting into the zone at maximum attack to appropriate a rally term, when it blows it up goes real bad real fast.

My complete novice opinion is that they need to mix it up more. Use the boards to go up ice once in a while, yes even dump it past the trap just a smidge more often. Especially for the lower lines. The Coyotes are too predictable but don't have the personnel to make that irrelevant. Kind of reminds me of the Suns in the 7 seconds or less days if you took out the two time MVP. It wouldn't work.


The case that they lack structure on the defensive side though is reasonably strong . Or maybe they just get caught up ice too much I dunno.

My super early this is way to early did I mention it's early conclusion is we lack the personnel on lines 2 and 3 to run this system as rigid as they have been offensively. Dvorak has been handling the puck like hot potato, Rieder's finishing problems are even worse than usual right now, and the rest of the guys just can't keep up. Maybe Perlini can but we haven't seen much of him yet.

I also think there's a good chance teams are identifying what the Coyotes are trying to do and the Coyotes don't have enough tools in the toolbox to do something different and confuse defenses. If I had a guess as to what's causing all the odd man rushes I'd say that's it.

I still don't really think that the system is what's making Schenn, Demers, OEL, and Goligoski pass to the other team though. Or KConn getting beat on the edge all the time. To an extent it could be a puck support issue but I mostly see the biggest disasters as 1 on 1 plays for the most part.

This post is anything but a novice opinion.

 

[SniperHF]

This post is anything but a novice opinion.

Thanks I guess

Whenever I talk hockey strategy I feel the need to do the equivalent of the simple country lawyer speech.

My frustrations about the lack of structure are more about the play in either zone once possession has been established (and transition back to D, to a lesser extent). That’s when the bad turnovers and biggest individual defensive lapses seem to happening. I think puck support is a big part of it. The forwards are releasing for the breakout a little too early, leaving the defensemen on their own islands too often. On offense, I’m seeing forwards get too deep to be helpful on the backcheck, and there have been some bad pinches from defensemen without forwards cycling back to cover for them.

That you've brought it up, I think there probably is something to forwards going in too deep without being totally established in the zone.

Maybe it's not a system issue but a teaching issue? Mixed messages like saying we want to be fast and push and all that being drilled into the forward's heads vs the realities of what the system is supposed to be? Emphasis can be just as much a factor as the material being taught.

 

[LuckyNumber11]

Much like how the Cleveland Browns aren't gonna be fixed in a year, either are we. Tocchet's main focus should be developing new talent and letting them grow in a faster paced system. Tipp certainly would not have produced that, and Tocc may not produce it either. But I like our chances of the kids developing under Tocc a helluva lot better than under Tipp

 

[Prarievarg]

But I like our chances of the kids developing under Tocc a helluva lot better than under Tipp

This is how I see it aswell. And the reason for my optimism despite current records.

 

[BUX7PHX]

My super early this is way to early did I mention it's early conclusion is we lack the personnel on lines 2 and 3 to run this system as rigid as they have been offensively. Dvorak has been handling the puck like hot potato, Rieder's finishing problems are even worse than usual right now, and the rest of the guys just can't keep up. Maybe Perlini can but we haven't seen much of him yet.

I also think there's a good chance teams are identifying what the Coyotes are trying to do and the Coyotes don't have enough tools in the toolbox to do something different and confuse defenses. If I had a guess as to what's causing all the odd man rushes I'd say that's it.

I still don't really think that the system is what's making Schenn, Demers, OEL, and Goligoski pass to the other team though. Or KConn getting beat on the edge all the time. To an extent it could be a puck support issue but I mostly see the biggest disasters as 1 on 1 plays for the most part.

I can agree with most of what you are saying regarding the offense and defense. My only area of question comes in the last few paragraphs.

Have we ever, in the last 8 years, had the personnel to run lines 2 and 3 (or for that matter, 1 and 4? We had a lot of good players, but there was a time when Korpikoski was to be relied on as our #2 LW, right? Yes, this is a younger and less mentally tough team than the others, but top to bottom, this is our best roster in terms of talent level. To me, there is an element of the coaching abilities that create that difference. Yes, we had bad years, which honestly coincided with our worst rosters.

I don't mean to get into the psyche of the players here, but if the players that were on the team last year were that disappointed in the system that was being run and how it led to a diminished return on their games, wouldn't that suggest a team that would come out of the gates wanting to do right by the system? I think the communication between players and coaches is a little disconnected - we do support poorly. Just going for the speed aspect is but one part - the spacing and angles that we are taking are not sharp and crisp. It makes us a little one-dimensional and that is really bad and almost gives off an air of stubbornness and arrogance on the part of the coaches to believe that we can just "play faster" and succeed, especially if results aren't there...

 

[slv]

We could easily win the first two games and continue to develop the team game. Instead, they are now all hypnotized and paralyzed because of one freaking victory. I feel bad for Tocc.

 

[PhoPhan]

Maybe it's not a system issue but a teaching issue? Mixed messages like saying we want to be fast and push and all that being drilled into the forward's heads vs the realities of what the system is supposed to be? Emphasis can be just as much a factor as the material being taught.

Totally plausible. Whether it's a matter of emphasis or X's and O's, though, I'm seeing the same mistakes in game 10 that I saw in game 1, if not worse. Whatever is going on, I hope they figure it out and fix it soon. Emphasis seems like an easier issue to fix.

 

[Jakey53]

Cobra this is an honest question, no jab, nothing. Do you think Keller would be getting 21 minutes a night and PPG in his career under Tippett?

Of course he would. DT never had a talent like Keller to work with. He is better than Domi and Domi had plenty of ice time with DT.

Tocchet may not be the guy for the Coyotes, but I am a firm believer that Tippett wasn't either. If Tip was/is a highly coveted coach, I think we would've seen him find a job by now. Kind of how Julien was fired, then hired/signed to a new extension within 72 hours

DT is a highly coveted coach and will get a job when teams start to fire theirs during the year. DT was fired just before training camp so I'm not surprised he never got a job immediately.

 

[Jakey53]

There's a very large gray area between, Dave Tippett being head coach of the Coyotes and Rick Tocchet being head coach of the Coyotes. Surely, if we did fire Tocchet too soon tomorrow, or never hired him in the first place, there's another option that's not, "hey let's bring back the trainwreck moron from the last 5 years, who derailed everything in the first place." All those lonely nights without the Tip must be taking their toll.

DT is not coming back, and he did not derail everything in the first place. You guys always blame the coach for everything, but if he doesn't have the players to work with your chance of success is almost zero. Of course this has been stated many time but the DT haters don't understand and never will. RT will not be fired as he is AB's hiring.

 

[Jakey53]

Yes, I'm glad we changed the culture. I'm not happy with how it changed, but it needed to be changed. I'm glad we got rid of Smith and Tippett. Doan, I wasn't thrilled about, but more because of how it was done than why. I'd have liked to have had Vrbata back, sure.

But you're fooling yourself if you think this team would be above .500 had Chayka elected to keep Tippett around and leave the roster static.

We will never know will we.

Look I was one of the first to call for Tocchet’s head, but I never wanted to bring Tippet back. We need an offensive minded coach with Keller, but one who has a system which also minds the defensive side of the game. No more pond hockey.

RT is getting too much heat for this. We have terrible goal tending. No body can win in the NHL with this kind of play we are getting from LD and Hill.

 

[hbk]

We need to give Tocchet a chance to win with an actual NHL goalie versus Swiss cheese Domingue. Anyone still think he's anything more than a backup?

My only other comment on coaching is on philosophy. Do you develop a system based around who you have or do you force players to play a system that they may not be ready or have the personnel for? Do you say try to stick with a run and gun style despite your top goalie being out with injury instead of playing more conservative to try and protect your netminders?

I think coaching was aggressive when it should have been conservative. But I also believe we as an organization thought Domingue was better than what he's shown. Hindsight of course is 20/20.

 

[KG]

I'm not thrilled with Tocchet, but lol at the posters who gave Tip 5 years of rope and are giving Tocchet 10 games.

 

[Jakey53]

Here’s my take - may be long but this is where I see things.

Chyka brought in proven talent at this level (Demers, Stepan, Raanta, Hjarlmarsson. To a lesser extent Nick Cousins (primary 4th line role) to sharpen this teams core and to build with. By all accounts, Chyka has done a damn good job assembling this team. I don’t care where HF ranks him as far as GMs go, but he’s done well in my opinion.

Now, you’ve got:
Domi
Duclair
Reider
Ekman-Larsson
Perlini
Martinook

All who’ve never played another system, ever, besides Dave Tippets, in the NHL. They’ve never known anything but that system. Adding in the other acquisitions who all played in different systems and trying to force these guys to learn this Tochett system I can’t imagine is easy. It’s like that common core math, you were taught one way and one way only for years and develop the understanding like the back of your hand only to do it a different way now. The end result is getting the equation right and the end result is winning after 60 (65) minutes of playing.

The talent is there gents. These guys have all had success and have won and most notably have been the reasons their former teams had success. It’s not like we pulled from a grab bag and inserted them into the line up, these guys can flat out play hockey (Stepan, Hjarlmarsson most notably) but something’s not clicking.

Tochett I believe expects this team to be a Pittsburgh 2.0 and rightfully so, that’s a lot of what Tochett knows and has seen the success implementing it. But, you have to have the right players for that system. We do not have a Malkin or Crosby or a core that has played that system the last 3 years (or however Long Sullivan has been there) this is all very new for this group. I want to blame the system, I want to blame the coaching staff and I also want to blame the players, but reality is, I guess, is time.

Our goaltending has been ****, defensive coverage has been **** (some due to d man joining rushes) but the accountability needs to be there on the team as a whole. We’ve all seen demers, goligoski, Schenn, OEL etc all royally **** up and cost the team, but it has to be a team approach from now.

The talent is certainly there, no denying that. But somethings gotta give and I believe it’s learning to structure the system tocchet is preaching and if it can’t be done, bring in someone that isn’t as complicated.

ALL players have played all the systems at one time of their career. It's the coach to decide which system will work with the talent he has. Maybe RT and all of use over estimated the talent we have. Maybe we are not suited with what RT has put in place. Maybe, just maybe he has to rethink his system. Then again, with the great goal tending we have how can you win.