Management Sweeney/Neely-Grade offseason moves

[BruinDust]

I'm not saying Sweeney should have gone into the season with 2 rookie goalies. I just don't like the Ullmark signing. It's too much term for an unproven goalie.

I personally would have made the D corps a lot better because I don't care whose in net, if your Defense sucks it's irrelevant.

Wasn't there a team in 2019 that hitched a wagon to an unproven goalie...can't remember.

And that's fair. I just think that is where the goalie market went if you look at the true comparable options. He was unproven to a degree but he wasn't a rookie himself and his numbers in the proper context in Buffalo the past two years were actually solid despite the team in front of him.

 

[ODAAT]

Nosek has been as advertised
Really like Forbort and don`t blame him for Butch playing him too high up in the lineup
Haula- frustrating to watch him offensively as he does have solid hands but what he does away from the puck hasn`t suffered, very responsible in all 3 zones but still needs to produce something
Foligno- like to see a few more pts but watching a Bruin actually plant his ass in front of the net has been fun to watch

 

[Root]

Who even says Holtby had any interest in Boston?

Another fact no one seems to mention......how many goaltenders would be interested in coming to Boston with Rask lurking in the back-ground? Some guys wouldn't care. But you can be darn sure some guys would and it would be enough to go elsewhere. If I'm a goaltender or the goaltenders agent it's a serious concern for some. These guys are all competitive and want to play.

offer Holtby a little more money and he’d have interest in Boston. Either way the point is, I’d much rather the Bruins sign a veteran goalie than give out the contract they did to Ullmark. And back to the original point, saying Sweeney was never going to go into the season with two rookie goaltenders does not justify the contract Sweeney gave to Ullmark.

I’m not rooting against Ullmark, I just don’t think it was a great move by Sweeney.

 

[ON3M4N]

Better stats than what Ullmark has done so far?

In terms of quantifying it, more games where he wins or saves more than the other goalies in the league?

He's been fairly average to me. Not bad, but not anything special. Not seeing an upgrade from Halak or even Vladar. He's had a couple good games, and a couple not so good ones, but the body of work, albeit not much so far, needs to be better as a whole.

But your comparing Vladar on CGY and not Vladar on BOS, so is it really a fair comparison?

Vladar last year for Boston had a 3.40 GAA and a .886 SV%. Do you really think Vladar is posting a 1.57 GAA / .947 SV% if it was Boston in front of him and not CGY?

 

[burstnbloom]

You sure about that?

Holtby: 1 yr $2m
Raanta: 2 yrs $2m per
Anderson: 1yr $750k
Reimer: 2rs $2.25 per

All signed last offseason, and all with comfortably better years than Ullmark right now

Did you just cite Craig Anderson? I meant goalies we could live with. Raanta hasn't been healthy at all since 2019 and before that 2017. Reimer was not coming here for so many reasons and Holtby wasn't signing a 1 year deal here to wait for Rask.

The real options (freddy, Mrazek, Grubauer, Ullmark) all made $4m or more and got movement protection in some way. The goalie conversation is so tired as its not based in reality.

 

[chizzler]

Everyone pissed also about Subban playing in Vegas too. We’ll see about Vlad.

 

[ON3M4N]

Everyone pissed also about Subban playing in Vegas too. We’ll see about Vlad.

People were also pissed we didn't keep Martin Jones because he had 1 good year in SJS. I've come to realize that in Boston the goaltending position is always a lightning rod.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

Would you rather have Holtby at 1 year 2M paired with Swayman (or Vladar) with Rask coming back in January (or whenever he is supposed to be healthy) or what the Bruins have now?

Admittedly, it is far too early to declare anything regarding the goaltenders as it is still early in the season but the goalie complaints are far, far from pointless. There were other options and so far Sweeney’s decision is not looking great.

Okay, so we sign Holtby to his contract or any other goalie instead of Ullmark and keep Vladar. Swayman goes to the AHL. Once Rask comes back, are you trading Vladar then? Waiving him to Providence and hoping he clears? Not re-signing Rask?

The Bruins were potentially losing Vladar to waivers in most situations so they dealt him. They were able to recoup the pick they used on him back in 2015 in what appears to be a deep 2022 draft (also, gained a pick back as they moved their own pick for Reilly).

I’m 100% confident in saying that Vladar’s numbers here aren’t touching what his numbers are in Calgary.

Calgary >>> Boston

I feel a lot of the complaints about the goalies are stemming from fans ignoring this and thinking with Vladar here, he’s doing similar. I highly doubt it.

You weren’t getting much for Vladar in a trade. The fact Boston got a 3rd was actually a decent trade for Sweeney. He’s easy to rag on and I hate the direction he has the team going right now. The goalie thing isn’t it.

 

[Lobster57]

Vlad's sample size is also so small right now. He's played against the Caps (3GA), Devils (3GA), Leafs (2GA), Sens (0GA), and B's (0GA). Good numbers, but pretty heavily skewed by the 2 shutouts at this point. If after a dozen starts he's still sub-2.0ga and +0.925sv% some teeth-nashing might be in order. But at this point the league hasn't even gotten to the table of contents of The Book on Dan Vladar.

 

[Deal Law]

Somewhat on point, but nevertheless directionally in line with this thread, Fluto posted the following article to the Athletic (paywall warning):

The Bruins' future at center: What the lack of development now could mean for the post-Patrice Bergeron future

I'm not a big Fluto fan, but this is as close as I have seen him come to actually criticizing management (although he had to do it indirectly, through quotes from an anonymous executive). Really paints a bleak picture and encapsulates why I hate this management team so very much.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Okay, so we sign Holtby to his contract or any other goalie instead of Ullmark and keep Vladar. Swayman goes to the AHL. Once Rask comes back, are you trading Vladar then? Waiving him to Providence and hoping he clears? Not re-signing Rask?

The Bruins were potentially losing Vladar to waivers in most situations so they dealt him. They were able to recoup the pick they used on him back in 2015 in what appears to be a deep 2022 draft (also, gained a pick back as they moved their own pick for Reilly).

I’m 100% confident in saying that Vladar’s numbers here aren’t touching what his numbers are in Calgary.

Calgary >>> Boston

I feel a lot of the complaints about the goalies are stemming from fans ignoring this and thinking with Vladar here, he’s doing similar. I highly doubt it.

You weren’t getting much for Vladar in a trade. The fact Boston got a 3rd was actually a decent trade for Sweeney. He’s easy to rag on and I hate the direction he has the team going right now. The goalie thing isn’t it.

They handled the young goalies the right way. You pick which of the 2 you feel is better and move the other.

The issue is they now added an overpriced, underperforming roadblock in Swayman's way instead of bringing in a cheap vet on a 1-2 year deal to back him up

 

[kjpm]

Somewhat on point, but nevertheless directionally in line with this thread, Fluto posted the following article to the Athletic (paywall warning):

The Bruins' future at center: What the lack of development now could mean for the post-Patrice Bergeron future

I'm not a big Fluto fan, but this is as close as I have seen him come to actually criticizing management (although he had to do it indirectly, through quotes from an anonymous executive). Really paints a bleak picture and encapsulates why I hate this management team so very much.

This is the main criticism of the Sweeney era for me. No matter how you slice it, he's had six years now to find and develop successors to Bergeron and Krejci and he hasn't even come close. That is an abject failure. They've had their chances to add talent at center through the draft, and there's even been some very good centers traded around the league in that time, and all they have to show for it is Coyle and maybe Studnicka. It's a major, major issue.

 

[Root]

Okay, so we sign Holtby to his contract or any other goalie instead of Ullmark and keep Vladar. Swayman goes to the AHL. Once Rask comes back, are you trading Vladar then? Waiving him to Providence and hoping he clears? Not re-signing Rask?

The Bruins were potentially losing Vladar to waivers in most situations so they dealt him. They were able to recoup the pick they used on him back in 2015 in what appears to be a deep 2022 draft (also, gained a pick back as they moved their own pick for Reilly).

I’m 100% confident in saying that Vladar’s numbers here aren’t touching what his numbers are in Calgary.

Calgary >>> Boston

I feel a lot of the complaints about the goalies are stemming from fans ignoring this and thinking with Vladar here, he’s doing similar. I highly doubt it.

You weren’t getting much for Vladar in a trade. The fact Boston got a 3rd was actually a decent trade for Sweeney. He’s easy to rag on and I hate the direction he has the team going right now. The goalie thing isn’t it.

Who said we wouldn’t still trade Vladar exactly when we did and go with Swayman & Holtby? Signing Holtby gives you more flexibility to keep Vladar but it doesn’t mean you can’t trade him when we did or when/if Rask comes back. One thing I know for sure is that Holtby on a one year deal or Vladar on his cheap contract is a lot easier to move in season than Ullmark and the deal we gave him. It isn’t about Vladar vs Ullmark (is this still not clear?), it is about Sweeney’s decision to give Ullmark that contract when he had better/cheaper options on the table that would have given us more flexibility going forward.

It seems like a lot of people are twisting themselves into making the point that Ullmark was the best option...maybe he was, still a lot to play out before we can reach a conclusion but so far I’d say it’s not trending that way.

As far as your other points, Calgary is definitely a better team and I agree the goaltending isn’t the biggest issue right now but if Ullmark doesn’t start to play better it quickly will become a big issue. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, I don’t think Ullmark has been terrible but I don’t think he’s been good enough either.

 

[WhalerTurnedBruin55]

But your comparing Vladar on CGY and not Vladar on BOS, so is it really a fair comparison?

Vladar last year for Boston had a 3.40 GAA and a .886 SV%. Do you really think Vladar is posting a 1.57 GAA / .947 SV% if it was Boston in front of him and not CGY?

I'm not saying he would have his Calgary stats. I'm saying I don't think they would be that far off from what Ullmark has accomplished. Which is moot at this point anyways.

My point, I don't care for investing long term in positions and players when we have other holes to fill.

Anyways, if you are happy with Ullmark, then go ahead.

 

[Over the volcano]

Somewhat on point, but nevertheless directionally in line with this thread, Fluto posted the following article to the Athletic (paywall warning):

The Bruins' future at center: What the lack of development now could mean for the post-Patrice Bergeron future

I'm not a big Fluto fan, but this is as close as I have seen him come to actually criticizing management (although he had to do it indirectly, through quotes from an anonymous executive). Really paints a bleak picture and encapsulates why I hate this management team so very much.

Surprised that they haven't stepped up when guys like Roslovic, Pierre-Luc Dubois, or Bennett have become available (and for cheap). There's been talented young centers to be had, hopfully they continue to be before father time catches up to Bergeron

 

[Deal Law]

Surprised that they haven't stepped up when guys like Roslovic, Pierre-Luc Dubois, or Bennett have become available (and for cheap). There's been talented young centers to be had, hopfully they continue to be before father time catches up to Bergeron

I'm not the least bit surprised. They don't make improvements when deficiencies are identified; they wait until the last possible second (Nash deadline, Coyle deadline, Hall deadline) or not at all (Krug replacement). I have zero confidence that anything will be done prior to this offseason to address this deficiency, because honestly, (1) they don't have the pieces needed to address it (i.e., either through trade or through their terrible internal options) and (2) they are the most passive/least proactive team in the league when it comes to correcting holes in the roster.

This is going to get a lot worse, and will be bad for a while, before it gets better.

 

[Over the volcano]

I'm not the least bit surprised. They don't make improvements when deficiencies are identified; they wait until the last possible second (Nash deadline, Coyle deadline, Hall deadline) or not at all (Krug replacement). I have zero confidence that anything will be done prior to this offseason to address this deficiency, because honestly, (1) they don't have the pieces needed to address it (i.e., either through trade or through their terrible internal options) and (2) they are the most passive/least proactive team in the league when it comes to correcting holes in the roster.

This is going to get a lot worse, and will be bad for a while, before it gets better.

Oh I disagree that they don't make improvements when they identify a need. They completely rebuilt the defense in the 2015/16 drafts and that was a killer need at the time (remember Trotman on the top pair?). The center problem is still one for the future (though it's coming) as they think Coyle is a #2.

 

[ON3M4N]

I'm not saying he would have his Calgary stats. I'm saying I don't think they would be that far off from what Ullmark has accomplished. Which is moot at this point anyways.

My point, I don't care for investing long term in positions and players when we have other holes to fill.

Anyways, if you are happy with Ullmark, then go ahead.

His numbers with Boston last year (which maybe not even as good as last years team) were worse than Ullmark's.

I'm not 100% happy with Ullmark, but I also recognize he's drawn some tough teams early on. He got two easy games with BUF/SJS to start, but after that it was...

FLA
FLA
TOR
EDM
PHI

Another way to look at it is from a NHL standing perspective....

2nd
2nd
8th
3rd
17th

He's 7 games in and while he hasn't been as good as many of us hoped, it's still 7 games and during a time when the entire team is just meh. Now if we're sitting here after he's got 15-20 games and still playing just "meh" then I'll start to be concerned. For now its just to early for me to hit the panic button.

I'll admit though I wasn't thrilled with the signing. I didnt hate it, but didnt love it and he wasn't my first choice. I was really hoping they'd find a way to bring MAF in. With that I do think Ullmark when on his game could be a really good goalie for Boston.

 

[chizzler]

They don’t have a goalie problem IMO.

 

[Lobster57]

They don’t have a goalie problem IMO.

they certainly have bigger problems than in net, that's for sure

 

[EverettMike]

I would have went with the two rookies, especially with Rask willing to resign later in the season when healthy. Just hold the fort until then. If the two young guys crater you can always trade for a veteran goaltender. Always.

But okay, they don't want to do that. They want to make sure they have a veteran with experience from day 1. Fine, it's not an indefensible position in any way. Totally reasonable viewpoint. So then keep Vladar with the big team and sign a veteran goalie to a one-year deal. Swayman would then get a starter's workload in Providence to continue developing, all while being ready to go in case of injury or poor performance. And you can still resign Rask if you want later.

But no, they want to sign Ullmark to a NMC 4-year deal for big money despite the fact he's never a) played a meaningful game in the NHL and b) has never ever ever played anywhere close to a #1 starter's workload. I thought/think this deal was indefensible, but once you do it you can still let Vladar stay with the big club (out of options/would have to clear waivers) while Swayman gets more time to develop. Vladar was one of your best prospects for a reason. And when he first came up last year he looked awesome. (Go read those GDTs to see what we all thought in the moment.) This approach also makes it nearly impossible---barring injury---to bring back Rask. So you lose that option later in the season.

Instead they just give Vladar away for nothing. And now the Bs couldn't trade Ullmark for Vladar straight up if they wanted to.

Is it too early to declare Vladar a success and Ullmark a failure? Yes, obviously way too early. Things could easily flip for both. But this board would be pretty boring if we never discussed what we think will happen, and I continue to think they royally f***ed up the goalie situation this past off-season.

 

[chizzler]

I would have went with the two rookies, especially with Rask willing to resign later in the season when healthy. Just hold the fort until then. If the two young guys crater you can always trade for a veteran goaltender. Always.

But okay, they don't want to do that. They want to make sure they have a veteran with experience from day 1. Fine, it's not an indefensible position in any way. Totally reasonable viewpoint. So then keep Vladar with the big team and sign a veteran goalie to a one-year deal. Swayman would then get a starter's workload in Providence to continue developing, all while being ready to go in case of injury or poor performance. And you can still resign Rask if you want later.

But no, they want to sign Ullmark to a NMC 4-year deal for big money despite the fact he's never a) played a meaningful game in the NHL and b) has never ever ever played anywhere close to a #1 starter's workload. I thought/think this deal was indefensible, but once you do it you can still let Vladar stay with the big club (out of options/would have to clear waivers) while Swayman gets more time to develop. Vladar was one of your best prospects for a reason. And when he first came up last year he looked awesome. (Go read those GDTs to see what we all thought in the moment.) This approach also makes it nearly impossible---barring injury---to bring back Rask. So you lose that option later in the season.

Instead they just give Vladar away for nothing. And now the Bs couldn't trade Ullmark for Vladar straight up if they wanted to.

Is it too early to declare Vladar a success and Ullmark a failure? Yes, obviously way too early. Things could easily flip for both. But this board would be pretty boring if we never discussed what we think will happen, and I continue to think they royally f***ed up the goalie situation this past off-season.

No, they f***ed up getting a second line center.

 

[Deal Law]

No, they f***ed up getting a second line center.

They f***ed up both, and the f*** up in one area makes upgrading the other difficult. The only silver lining is that net is not their biggest problem right now.

They knew Krejci was leaving. They knew he was leaving before he announced it; there is no way he just dropped that on them out of the blue. They did nothing to remedy the situation and Sweeney kept mumbling about having to go by committee. It was clear as day that wasn't going to work and that Coyle, even with a healthy knee, is not an adequate 2c.

The level of incompetence is so staggering that my only answer is that we are all being punked. I don't know how they did it, but it certainly involved mass kidnappings of Bruins fans, the use of psychotropics and really advanced VR technology. We're in the matrix and they're waiting to see how long before we question reality. It's definitely Jacobs working in conjunction with the lizard people in the earth, the Grays, and the Illuminati.

 

[EverettMike]

No, they f***ed up getting a second line center.

My friend, they f***ed up many things.

 

[BruinDust]

. Just hold the fort until then. If the two young guys crater you can always trade for a veteran goaltender. Always.

Yeah, just hold the fort until Jan or Feb. No problem at all.

Can you? You like our GM making trades from a position of weakness? Both rookies flame out now Sweeney got his fellow GMs tossing him anchors. The bolded sounds like something Pete Chiarelli would say.