Salary Cap: Surprised myself looking at next year

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

IF he continues the way he has... I don't think it's unfathomable.

I'm not saying I personally would, it's not my money. But look at comps of potential #1's that have been playing the minutes. I think McAvoy will get between 6-7 on his next contract. Especially if we are using Hamilton as the comp at over 5 several years ago.

new comp to consider... noah hanifin who has never averaged 19 mins a game and is a minus 20 almost evey year and hasn't scored more than an average of 30 points a season just got 6 years at a touch under 5 mill

im guessing hanifin will probably earn the deal because I believe in his talent... but he has obviously struggled so far and gotten traded and they still give him a 30 million dollar guaranteed contract

6-7... yes I think you are definitely in the ballpark. I just worry more about what will happen to carlos contract if he manages to score 30 points this year himself. honestly I think he does have some offensive skill and 30 points isn't entirely out of the question for him if he gets on a roll

we can probably handle our ace dman getting 6-7 but if krug is inline to get 6-7 minimum as well... and then carlo jacks himself up over 4... it gets very very dicey to round out the d with anyone else making money

if moore pans out as a solid top 4 guy then that contract might come back as one of the best in all hockey recent memory... but he needs to prove he can do that. if he becomes a 5/6 guy then that 5 year deal is going to look horrific

and the days of being able to pay guys like McQuaid/miller more than 2 mill is pretty much at the end. im not saying they suck but I am saying I don't want them in the top 4. we cant be paying bottom pair dmen more than a mill or so tops.

I wish chara had taken a bit more of a hometown discount this year. I suppose we can afford it... but I don't see anyway we can pay him anything close next year. id love to think he might stay a couple more years but that cap hit is going to have to seriously drop or he wont be affordable either.

contracts like this hanifin one though continue to teach us what we need to be budgeting for McAvoy and carlo

 

[BruinDust]

and the days of being able to pay guys like McQuaid/miller more than 2 mill is pretty much at the end.

I know, that 500k-750k is just killing the Bruins in a cap system.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I know, that 500k-750k is just killing the Bruins in a cap system.

yes this might be extremely difficult for someone with their little head shakey smilie to understand... but I have faith in you so I will take the time to remind you

we were OVER the cap last year. we are suffering a OVERAGE PENALTY this year. Every dollar we spent last year unnecessary was part of this problem and yes every single dollar we spent unnecessary hurt us because WE WERE OVER THE CAP AND WERE PENALIZED FOR IT

im not saying these guys wouldn't be worth the money on the open market. Im just going to say that when a team is spending 20+ million for their top 4 they WONT BE ABLE TO BE SPENDING 5 MILL ON THEIR BOTTOM PAIR TOO

ok... that really shouldn't have required me to take the time to answer... so maybe you will never get it? honestly I guess I have to accept that if you want to continue this naïve understanding. but if my reply helped you see things more true than I will feel as though it was worth my time to answer.

you do have a good understanding of the game and the team in other areas... I tend to like reading your posts... but you really have been out in left field about many of your takes on cap management over the last few years weve been exchanging these posts. I hope you are ok when the team does some chopping in the next couple years because I don't think you honestly see it coming. that might hurt

will be a lot of posters here wondering why some of these moves are about to drop... so at least you wont be alone

 

[BruinDust]

yes this might be extremely difficult for someone with their little head shakey smilie to understand... but I have faith in you so I will take the time to remind you

we were OVER the cap last year. we are suffering a OVERAGE PENALTY this year. Every dollar we spent last year unnecessary was part of this problem and yes every single dollar we spent unnecessary hurt us because WE WERE OVER THE CAP AND WERE PENALIZED FOR IT

im not saying these guys wouldn't be worth the money on the open market. Im just going to say that when a team is spending 20+ million for their top 4 they WONT BE ABLE TO BE SPENDING 5 MILL ON THEIR BOTTOM PAIR TOO

ok... that really shouldn't have required me to take the time to answer... so maybe you will never get it? honestly I guess I have to accept that if you want to continue this naïve understanding. but if my reply helped you see things more true than I will feel as though it was worth my time to answer.

you do have a good understanding of the game and the team in other areas... I tend to like reading your posts... but you really have been out in left field about many of your takes on cap management over the last few years weve been exchanging these posts. I hope you are ok when the team does some chopping in the next couple years because I don't think you honestly see it coming. that might hurt

will be a lot of posters here wondering why some of these moves are about to drop... so at least you wont be alone

Let me say it quite bluntly.

You don't know jack &^&^& about how to manage a salary cap. So 4 million on a bottom pair is fine, but 5 million? Whoa way too much. Get a clue. All 6 of your D-men are important contributors to your team, night-in and night-out. You talk about 3rd pair D-men like they are 4th line scrubs. In most cases, all 6 D-men will have special teams duty, your looking at 15-18 mins a night on average for your 5th and 6th D-men. That's a lot of ice-time, and you can't shield or protect inadequate D-men with zone starts all the time.

While I'm not saying go out and spend 8-10 million on your 3rd pair defenders, you making an issue out of an extra 500k-1 million between your two 3rd pair D-men shows you understanding of how to build a good team in a salary cap is awfully poor.

You want to manage the salary cap, avoid handing out medium-large contracts for 3rd line wingers and 4th line forwards and for the most part a team will manage their cap just fine.

 

[EverettMike]

yes this might be extremely difficult for someone with their little head shakey smilie to understand... but I have faith in you so I will take the time to remind you

we were OVER the cap last year. we are suffering a OVERAGE PENALTY this year. Every dollar we spent last year unnecessary was part of this problem and yes every single dollar we spent unnecessary hurt us because WE WERE OVER THE CAP AND WERE PENALIZED FOR IT

im not saying these guys wouldn't be worth the money on the open market. Im just going to say that when a team is spending 20+ million for their top 4 they WONT BE ABLE TO BE SPENDING 5 MILL ON THEIR BOTTOM PAIR TOO

ok... that really shouldn't have required me to take the time to answer... so maybe you will never get it? honestly I guess I have to accept that if you want to continue this naïve understanding. but if my reply helped you see things more true than I will feel as though it was worth my time to answer.

you do have a good understanding of the game and the team in other areas... I tend to like reading your posts... but you really have been out in left field about many of your takes on cap management over the last few years weve been exchanging these posts. I hope you are ok when the team does some chopping in the next couple years because I don't think you honestly see it coming. that might hurt

will be a lot of posters here wondering why some of these moves are about to drop... so at least you wont be alone

.......Wow.

 

[Pia8988]

Let me say it quite bluntly.

You don't know jack &^&^& about how to manage a salary cap. So 4 million on a bottom pair is fine, but 5 million? Whoa way too much. Get a clue. All 6 of your D-men are important contributors to your team, night-in and night-out. You talk about 3rd pair D-men like they are 4th line scrubs. In most cases, all 6 D-men will have special teams duty, your looking at 15-18 mins a night on average for your 5th and 6th D-men. That's a lot of ice-time, and you can't shield or protect inadequate D-men with zone starts all the time.

While I'm not saying go out and spend 8-10 million on your 3rd pair defenders, you making an issue out of an extra 500k-1 million between your two 3rd pair D-men shows you understanding of how to build a good team in a salary cap is awfully poor.

You want to manage the salary cap, avoid handing out medium-large contracts for 3rd line wingers and 4th line forwards and for the most part a team will manage their cap just fine.

The teams most agregious error isnt the extra bit spent on McQuaid or Miller. It’s the 4 million tied up in players no longer contributing to the lineup. Avoid the Hayes/Beleskey mistakes and it goes a long way.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Let me say it quite bluntly.

You don't know jack &^&^& about how to manage a salary cap. So 4 million on a bottom pair is fine, but 5 million? Whoa way too much. Get a clue. All 6 of your D-men are important contributors to your team, night-in and night-out. You talk about 3rd pair D-men like they are 4th line scrubs. In most cases, all 6 D-men will have special teams duty, your looking at 15-18 mins a night on average for your 5th and 6th D-men. That's a lot of ice-time, and you can't shield or protect inadequate D-men with zone starts all the time.

While I'm not saying go out and spend 8-10 million on your 3rd pair defenders, you making an issue out of an extra 500k-1 million between your two 3rd pair D-men shows you understanding of how to build a good team in a salary cap is awfully poor.

You want to manage the salary cap, avoid handing out medium-large contracts for 3rd line wingers and 4th line forwards and for the most part a team will manage their cap just fine.

we shall see what direction the team moves in. I seriously doubt I will be the one next year saying I don't understand what the team is doing

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

The teams most agregious error isnt the extra bit spent on McQuaid or Miller. It’s the 4 million tied up in players no longer contributing to the lineup. Avoid the Hayes/Beleskey mistakes and it goes a long way.

im not sure where you can point to an example of a team that doesn't have these sorts of mistakes. hayes and belesky were both clearly signed to play up in the lineup and they simply failed. seems to me every team has failures

but if you know one that doesn't id be interested to hear it.

heck backes is a failure. he was clearly signed to play up in the lineup and is now a 3rd line staple making too much for his position.

teams have a bit of room to absorb a few of these mistakes but that room runs out quickly as the mistakes tally up. I doubt any team will ever be perfect in my opion or I daresay yours too if you are being honest

the thing that teams do once they make a mistake... is they try to fix the mistake. hayes/belesky were fixed as much as is possible. I expect backes will be shopped once his nmc expires. I think krug might be shopped rather than give him a new deal. and I don't think miller or McQuaid are coming back at anything close to 2 mill to be bottom pair guys.

I don't think moore will play in the bottom pair as we carry forward because paying a guy 2 mill for bottom pair d is not smart cap management.

our cap overall... has been pretty good under Sweeney. I expect it will continue to get better

 

[BruinDust]

we shall see what direction the team moves in. I seriously doubt I will be the one next year saying I don't understand what the team is doing

Well that's a different question isn't it? One thing we do know by now, despite what you may think, Sweeney isn't afraid to spend cap space at a crucial position, which unless your Top 4 is going to play 50 out of 60 mins a game, D-men (all 6+ of them) is a crucial position.

He's got his 8 NHL guys, he's got D in the system that are taking longer than what fans at least expected. They are pretty much set at RD this year and next baring injuries with McAvoy-Carlo-Miller

Chara is Chara, he'll be here as long as both parties want, on 1-year deals moving forward. McQuaid probably walks as a UFA this summer, your likely looking at 7 of the 8 back next year baring something drastic happens like the Bruins as a team falling off the map this season, or a serious injury to Chara, which may spell the end of Chara.

The summer of 2020 Miller probably walks as UFA, they'll have a decision to make on Krug, which will depend on A) Chara and B) The progression of the young LD in the system over the next two seasons.

Your answer to "cap management" seems to be to nickle-and-dime on your 3rd pair D. Not a smart move to cut corners over 1 million of an almost 80 million cap on players who play the amount of minutes even 3rd pairing D-men do.

Same with goal, they seem set for two years with a Rask-Halak tandem.

If he comes into a cap crunch next summer, and it will be tight with new deals required for McAvoy/Carlo/Heinen/Donato, it may spell the end of Backes or Krejci. More likely he bridges Carlo/Heinen/Donato to make it all fit. Then continue to fill in gaps with the bevy of quality young forwards in the system.

The direction of this team seems pretty clear. There won't be any trades between now and training camp/pre-season. They'll see what they have in terms of NHL caliber wingers between Bjork, Donato and others. If it proves by mid-November-ish that none of them can get the job done, then he may deal from his D-corps to improve his forward group. But a year ago on this date very few were talking about Debrusk as a Top 6 winger, and he emerged. I think the odds are pretty good at least one of the young wingers will step up and produce in Boston this season.

Overall I think Sweeney and the Bruins have a pretty good handle on their cap situation moving forward.

 

[BruinDust]

im not sure where you can point to an example of a team that doesn't have these sorts of mistakes. hayes and belesky were both clearly signed to play up in the lineup and they simply failed. seems to me every team has failures

but if you know one that doesn't id be interested to hear it.

heck backes is a failure. he was clearly signed to play up in the lineup and is now a 3rd line staple making too much for his position.

teams have a bit of room to absorb a few of these mistakes but that room runs out quickly as the mistakes tally up. I doubt any team will ever be perfect in my opion or I daresay yours too if you are being honest

the thing that teams do once they make a mistake... is they try to fix the mistake. hayes/belesky were fixed as much as is possible. I expect backes will be shopped once his nmc expires. I think krug might be shopped rather than give him a new deal. and I don't think miller or McQuaid are coming back at anything close to 2 mill to be bottom pair guys.

I don't think moore will play in the bottom pair as we carry forward because paying a guy 2 mill for bottom pair d is not smart cap management.

our cap overall... has been pretty good under Sweeney. I expect it will continue to get better

They won a cup with Kabele making 4 million on the 3rd pair. Even if you shifted him up and Ference down, Ference made close to what Moore is getting, and that was with a lower salary cap.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Well that's a different question isn't it? One thing we do know by now, despite what you may think, Sweeney isn't afraid to spend cap space at a crucial position, which unless your Top 4 is going to play 50 out of 60 mins a game, D-men (all 6+ of them) is a crucial position.

He's got his 8 NHL guys, he's got D in the system that are taking longer than what fans at least expected. They are pretty much set at RD this year and next baring injuries with McAvoy-Carlo-Miller

Chara is Chara, he'll be here as long as both parties want, on 1-year deals moving forward. McQuaid probably walks as a UFA this summer, your likely looking at 7 of the 8 back next year baring something drastic happens like the Bruins as a team falling off the map this season, or a serious injury to Chara, which may spell the end of Chara.

The summer of 2020 Miller probably walks as UFA, they'll have a decision to make on Krug, which will depend on A) Chara and B) The progression of the young LD in the system over the next two seasons.

Your answer to "cap management" seems to be to nickle-and-dime on your 3rd pair D. Not a smart move to cut corners over 1 million of an almost 80 million cap on players who play the amount of minutes even 3rd pairing D-men do.

Same with goal, they seem set for two years with a Rask-Halak tandem.

If he comes into a cap crunch next summer, and it will be tight with new deals required for McAvoy/Carlo/Heinen/Donato, it may spell the end of Backes or Krejci. More likely he bridges Carlo/Heinen/Donato to make it all fit. Then continue to fill in gaps with the bevy of quality young forwards in the system.

The direction of this team seems pretty clear. There won't be any trades between now and training camp/pre-season. They'll see what they have in terms of NHL caliber wingers between Bjork, Donato and others. If it proves by mid-November-ish that none of them can get the job done, then he may deal from his D-corps to improve his forward group. But a year ago on this date very few were talking about Debrusk as a Top 6 winger, and he emerged. I think the odds are pretty good at least one of the young wingers will step up and produce in Boston this season.

Overall I think Sweeney and the Bruins have a pretty good handle on their cap situation moving forward.

I think... if you get lucky with elc affordable contracts contributing above their pay grade... or even luck into deals like Bergeron/marchand where your elite world class game breakers get signed for 60% of the market standard... it goes along way towards creating an unnatural flexibility in how you might be able to get away with affording 6 mill to backes to play 3rd line for example

but is it ideal to pay him that much for this role? were we able to keep riley nash at his ask for a 3rd line role or did we have to say no? were we able to pay lucic or did we worry he would not be able to continue in a top 6 role and that pricetag was going to be too much if he was forced to be a 3rd/4th liner?

honestly what im saying isn't that controversial.

we were able to afford miller/McQuaid last year... almost
and we have a 23 man roster put together now where they are affordable this year too

but is it ideal? or will the team try to find a cost savings in that area?

you know what I think

im wondering if you are arguing with me only for the sake of argument... or do you actually predict the team will be paying 4-5+ mill for their third pair dmen after next year when McAvoy/carlo leave their elc behind and suddenly money gets very tight on the d core to afford their new deals?

someone might tell me I predicted one of these guys would be moved last year... I did that... I admit it... and I might be told I was wrong because obviously both are still here.

someone might tell me I predicted one would be moved this year... and yet today the roster shows us with 8 dmen signed and both these guys still here. we might have to admit im wrong again this year

in no universe I know of... can I predict both McQuaid and miller will end up with new deals to stay here beyond the expiration of their current contracts. not unless one of carlo or McAvoy is lost to us before that day happens...
if carlo/McAvoy get their new deals than I am out on the limb and im going to predict both miller and McQuaid will move on by the expiration of their current deals

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

They won a cup with Kabele making 4 million on the 3rd pair. Even if you shifted him up and Ference down, Ference made close to what Moore is getting, and that was with a lower salary cap.

technically you might be right here... but you have to see your huge logic problem before I point it out don't you?

when you trade for someone at the deadline... you inherit around 1/6th of their cap hit at most... maybe around 1/7th.

as I recollect ference/boychuk were the teams 3/4 dmen in that time you are talking about... and I have no problem even then under that lower cap ceiling paying your 3/4 guy 2.25 mill

lets remember chara was at a well deserved 7.5
Seidenberg who was often used with chara was at 3 mill
and then ference was at 2.25
boychuk was still on a very friendly 1.75 after his bonus
then you had mark stuart most the year before he was upgraded to karberle. stuard was at 1.675
and the bottom guys were paid like bottom guys hunwick… bartowski…

in the following season dougie Hamilton and torey krug would be getting their first cup of coffee and would be on elc so things would change a bit for the team... karberle would NOT be brought back because it would be INSANE to pay him 4 mill as a 3rd pair guy for an entire season back then. he was strictly a playoff rental

what we can see from looking at history here is when you pay your top guy such a huge hit like chara… you MUST save on the bottom pair and employ guys like hunwick/bartowski.. and then you are scrambling to make deadline deals for guys like karberle because you otherwise couldn't afford them the entire seasons

 

[Pia8988]

im not sure where you can point to an example of a team that doesn't have these sorts of mistakes. hayes and belesky were both clearly signed to play up in the lineup and they simply failed. seems to me every team has failures

but if you know one that doesn't id be interested to hear it.

heck backes is a failure. he was clearly signed to play up in the lineup and is now a 3rd line staple making too much for his position.

teams have a bit of room to absorb a few of these mistakes but that room runs out quickly as the mistakes tally up. I doubt any team will ever be perfect in my opion or I daresay yours too if you are being honest

the thing that teams do once they make a mistake... is they try to fix the mistake. hayes/belesky were fixed as much as is possible. I expect backes will be shopped once his nmc expires. I think krug might be shopped rather than give him a new deal. and I don't think miller or McQuaid are coming back at anything close to 2 mill to be bottom pair guys.

I don't think moore will play in the bottom pair as we carry forward because paying a guy 2 mill for bottom pair d is not smart cap management.

our cap overall... has been pretty good under Sweeney. I expect it will continue to get better

Today?

Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis

Don't give long term deals to middling players.

Now yes, sometimes shit happens. No one say Seidenberg blowing out his knee is a pretty freak play. The Hayes and Beleskey signings, not so much. As well as teams intentionally using cap space to acquire value. Colorado got their goalie cheaper by eating Orpik's buy out for a couple years, but they also are not a cap team.

 

[BruinDust]

I think... if you get lucky with elc affordable contracts contributing above their pay grade... or even luck into deals like Bergeron/marchand where your elite world class game breakers get signed for 60% of the market standard... it goes along way towards creating an unnatural flexibility in how you might be able to get away with affording 6 mill to backes to play 3rd line for example

but is it ideal to pay him that much for this role? were we able to keep riley nash at his ask for a 3rd line role or did we have to say no? were we able to pay lucic or did we worry he would not be able to continue in a top 6 role and that pricetag was going to be too much if he was forced to be a 3rd/4th liner?

honestly what im saying isn't that controversial.

we were able to afford miller/McQuaid last year... almost
and we have a 23 man roster put together now where they are affordable this year too

but is it ideal? or will the team try to find a cost savings in that area?

you know what I think

im wondering if you are arguing with me only for the sake of argument... or do you actually predict the team will be paying 4-5+ mill for their third pair dmen after next year when McAvoy/carlo leave their elc behind and suddenly money gets very tight on the d core to afford their new deals?

someone might tell me I predicted one of these guys would be moved last year... I did that... I admit it... and I might be told I was wrong because obviously both are still here.

someone might tell me I predicted one would be moved this year... and yet today the roster shows us with 8 dmen signed and both these guys still here. we might have to admit im wrong again this year

in no universe I know of... can I predict both McQuaid and miller will end up with new deals to stay here beyond the expiration of their current contracts. not unless one of carlo or McAvoy is lost to us before that day happens...
if carlo/McAvoy get their new deals than I am out on the limb and im going to predict both miller and McQuaid will move on by the expiration of their current deals

As for Backes, no it isn't ideal, not if he's a permanent winger. I said in an earlier post that avoid overpaying for 3rd line wingers is important in a salary cap.

Your prediction of what happens to McQuaid this summer and Miller the summer after is exactly what I said.

Our difference lies essentially in the importance of 3rd pair D-men. I say it's fine spending 4-5 million on these guys, players who spend more time on the ice than most of the forward group I might add.

You disagree, you want to go cheap on the 3rd pair to spend the cap space where exactly? Assuming it's going to be spent somewhere, seems like you would prefer the Bruins spend more cap space on wingers. Not a recipe for success in my opinion, especially now the way the game is played. Go watch a game and count the number of times D-men get touches of the puck. It has increased drastically the last 15 years. More touches = more skating = more fatigue. You need a solid group now, this whole "rock-solid Top 4 stuff" is an exception in today's game, the D-man's job now is more taxing than it ever has been the way the game is played.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Today?

Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis

Don't give long term deals to middling players.

Now yes, sometimes **** happens. No one say Seidenberg blowing out his knee is a pretty freak play. The Hayes and Beleskey signings, not so much. As well as teams intentionally using cap space to acquire value. Colorado got their goalie cheaper by eating Orpik's buy out for a couple years, but they also are not a cap team.

Philly- McDonald, Gudas (Philly has some of the worst all-time), JVR will be terrible before that deal's up.
Pittsburgh - Arguably everyone on their defense is overpaid, Hornqvist at 37 making $5.3m isn't going to be pretty
Washington- Wilson, Niskanen, paid up to get rid of Orpik
Chicago - Are you kidding? Seabrooke is cooked and signed for $7m for 6 more years. Saad (who I like) had significantly worse numbers than Backes last year, Towes is overpaid.
Steen- Older than Backes and more busted, Jake Allen cost them the playoffs
Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis
Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis

 

[Pia8988]

Philly- McDonald, Gudas (Philly has some of the worst all-time), JVR will be terrible before that deal's up.
Pittsburgh - Arguably everyone on their defense is overpaid, Hornqvist at 37 making $5.3m isn't going to be pretty
Washington- Wilson, Niskanen, paid up to get rid of Orpik
Chicago - Are you kidding? Seabrooke is cooked and signed for $7m for 6 more years. Saad (who I like) had significantly worse numbers than Backes last year, Towes is overpaid.
Steen- Older than Backes and more busted, Jake Allen cost them the playoffs
Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis
Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
St Louis

My point is they are at least playing for their roster. Not eating up space in a buyout. As well, some of those contracts you're listing as bad aren't really bad. So.....

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

As for Backes, no it isn't ideal, not if he's a permanent winger. I said in an earlier post that avoid overpaying for 3rd line wingers is important in a salary cap.

Your prediction of what happens to McQuaid this summer and Miller the summer after is exactly what I said.

Our difference lies essentially in the importance of 3rd pair D-men. I say it's fine spending 4-5 million on these guys, players who spend more time on the ice than most of the forward group I might add.

You disagree, you want to go cheap on the 3rd pair to spend the cap space where exactly? Assuming it's going to be spent somewhere, seems like you would prefer the Bruins spend more cap space on wingers. Not a recipe for success in my opinion, especially now the way the game is played. Go watch a game and count the number of times D-men get touches of the puck. It has increased drastically the last 15 years. More touches = more skating = more fatigue. You need a solid group now, this whole "rock-solid Top 4 stuff" is an exception in today's game, the D-man's job now is more taxing than it ever has been the way the game is played.

I think I probably said something or you read something that is definitely not my position. I don't want to let it be said that I undervalue the importance of the 3rd pair dmen… or the bottom line forwards for that matter... or the backup goalie which is another one I think you and I recently disagreed about... hell I don't even want to discredit the importance of good vets in the ahl that can be called up. I was quite a fan of the Agostino signing last year and to a lesser extent the postma signing because I thought both would be good callups from the ahl

I definitely think its important to have capable players at every position in the 23 man roster.

I just think you can find plug-and-play guys for around a million every year that I would be content to go with if the kids weren't handling the job

I mean I look at our current d and what do I see?

I see McAvoy and carlo who im very comfortable counting on as 2 of my 3 right defense in the starting 7
I see krug. chara, and now moore who im likewise comfortable at the left defense

so the final 2 spots are my #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart basically

and I am pretty damn happy with grezlyk filling one of those 2 spots at the 1.2 million price I am talking about.

I guess we can afford to keep miller and McQuaid the way things have shaken out... I just am not the worlds biggest fan of paying a number 8 dman 2.5 million dollars. and that's simply how things are today... as we look at the future our kids will mature more... keeping McQuaid/miller will start to get in the way of playing time for someone.

if someone tells me krug will get dealt... grez will slot into the 3rd pair... and McQuaid will move to 7 on the depth chart... then ok... I can buy that... but even that still leaves us with the probably that we are still paying over 6 mill for our bottom 3 dmen

its just not a workable solution moving forward. now??? mmm... I guess.... but this has been a looming problem for the team for quite some time ever since we were blessed with McAvoy/carlo arriving ahead of schedule

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

My point is they are at least playing for their roster. Not eating up space in a buyout. As well, some of those contracts you're listing as bad aren't really bad. So.....

buyouts are a tricky argument to make... they tend to be a bit of bad luck sometimes. maybe a player gets lazy... gets fat... stops competing... maybe they just get some injuries... or lose some confidence... or have a fight with their girl...

these are often young men who as a general rule sometimes things go wrong with young men...

then theres the other notion that not all teams will authorize a buyout. sometimes owners are reluctant to spend money for that reason. some teams just keep playing a guy that we all would think should be bought out.

when I made the challenge to you I wasn't specifically talking buyouts because my debate started with overpaying bottom pair dmen. I was pointing at guys that hadn't been bought out and saying its a problem

then the conversation changed and people started arguing buyouts...

I allowed that ok... sure... that's sort of another case though where someone was being overpaid for what they could deliever and it just want to the next step of being a buyout...

for me though the argument still comes down to more simply... you cant knowingly sign a deal for someone that you know wont be good enough

so on your list... a couple examples jump to my head

philly paying dale weise… we all know this guy is a 4th liner and philly is paying the price for this now.

Washington with brooks orpik… we all said wtf when they pay this guy first line money... and it cost them big time to move this contract this year.

in Pittsburgh who here thinks that deal with jack Johnson has any chance of ending well? seems to me most of us believe hes going to be a 3rd pair guy and that's crazy money

I think teams make these mistakes all the time... sign guys to overly ambitious contracts that fall short on delivery and should probably be bought out. when dave bolland got his 5 mill I was like holy sheepdip… theres a lot of deals out there way worst than boston but that doesn't mean boston should just continue to overpay for these guys who don't have much potential to ever play above bottom pair

this year we let riley nash and tim schaller go... 2 very useful guys. I would like them to stay but I support the decision becase they were too expensive for what they were.

 

[BruinDust]

I think I probably said something or you read something that is definitely not my position. I don't want to let it be said that I undervalue the importance of the 3rd pair dmen… or the bottom line forwards for that matter... or the backup goalie which is another one I think you and I recently disagreed about... hell I don't even want to discredit the importance of good vets in the ahl that can be called up. I was quite a fan of the Agostino signing last year and to a lesser extent the postma signing because I thought both would be good callups from the ahl

I definitely think its important to have capable players at every position in the 23 man roster.

I just think you can find plug-and-play guys for around a million every year that I would be content to go with if the kids weren't handling the job

I mean I look at our current d and what do I see?

I see McAvoy and carlo who im very comfortable counting on as 2 of my 3 right defense in the starting 7
I see krug. chara, and now moore who im likewise comfortable at the left defense

so the final 2 spots are my #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart basically

and I am pretty damn happy with grezlyk filling one of those 2 spots at the 1.2 million price I am talking about.

I guess we can afford to keep miller and McQuaid the way things have shaken out... I just am not the worlds biggest fan of paying a number 8 dman 2.5 million dollars. and that's simply how things are today... as we look at the future our kids will mature more... keeping McQuaid/miller will start to get in the way of playing time for someone.

if someone tells me krug will get dealt... grez will slot into the 3rd pair... and McQuaid will move to 7 on the depth chart... then ok... I can buy that... but even that still leaves us with the probably that we are still paying over 6 mill for our bottom 3 dmen

its just not a workable solution moving forward. now??? mmm... I guess.... but this has been a looming problem for the team for quite some time ever since we were blessed with McAvoy/carlo arriving ahead of schedule

Moving forward? McQuaid most likely is gone after this year.

And it's probably time to get away with this #7 and #8 D stuff. It's spare LD and spare RD. That's how the group shapes up for this season. If a LD goes down, it's Gryz/Moore who goes in. If a RD goes down, Miller/McQuaid goes in. Depending on who was sitting in either scenario.

Now ideally do I want to pay SPARE D-men what McQuaid is making? Not really. It's a luxury they can afford at the moment, won't be an issue after this season most likely. But that's talking about your spare D, not your everyday 3rd pairing guy. And if come say the deadline they need cap space to bring someone in, moving out the remaining 1/4 of McQuaid's final year won't be a problem.

But I totally disagree on this notion that you can get quality 3rd pairing guys, or plug-and-play D-men, on 1-year or 2-year deals like it's no problem. UFAs you'll have to pay for, and even decent 3rd pairing D have value. Trade for a guy now you need to give up assets. Nick Holden is a perfect example. Decent 3rd pairing D, cost the Bruins a 3rd just for a 1/4 of a season of his services. Got a 2-year deal for 2.2 million, exactly the type of money you say teams shouldn't spend on 3rd pair D, but that's the marketplace unless you want guys bottom level 3rd pairing guys like a Postma. To be honest that kind of thinking was the sort of thing that went on in Boston during the MOC/Sinden mid 90s-early 2000s era. Let a guy walk for essentially peanuts, because they always believe a equal caliber yet cheaper option was available. But when did that philosophy work out? Well it didn't.

 

[Pia8988]

Moving forward? McQuaid most likely is gone after this year.

And it's probably time to get away with this #7 and #8 D stuff. It's spare LD and spare RD. That's how the group shapes up for this season. If a LD goes down, it's Gryz/Moore who goes in. If a RD goes down, Miller/McQuaid goes in. Depending on who was sitting in either scenario.

Now ideally do I want to pay SPARE D-men what McQuaid is making? Not really. It's a luxury they can afford at the moment, won't be an issue after this season most likely. But that's talking about your spare D, not your everyday 3rd pairing guy. And if come say the deadline they need cap space to bring someone in, moving out the remaining 1/4 of McQuaid's final year won't be a problem.

But I totally disagree on this notion that you can get quality 3rd pairing guys, or plug-and-play D-men, on 1-year or 2-year deals like it's no problem. UFAs you'll have to pay for, and even decent 3rd pairing D have value. Trade for a guy now you need to give up assets. Nick Holden is a perfect example. Decent 3rd pairing D, cost the Bruins a 3rd just for a 1/4 of a season of his services. Got a 2-year deal for 2.2 million, exactly the type of money you say teams shouldn't spend on 3rd pair D, but that's the marketplace unless you want guys bottom level 3rd pairing guys like a Postma. To be honest that kind of thinking was the sort of thing that went on in Boston during the MOC/Sinden mid 90s-early 2000s era. Let a guy walk for essentially peanuts, because they always believe a equal caliber yet cheaper option was available. But when did that philosophy work out? Well it didn't.

McQuaid/Miller are also luxaries you can afford when your top 2 RD are on ELCs. Talent on ELC is such an absurdly strong item to have in a cap driven league. I think this year will be one of Toronto's best chances with Matthews and Marner still getting peanuts in regard to their on ice value. When Charlie gets paid, you'll see the McQuaids and Miller be let go and hopefully the next piece is ready to step up.

 

[BruinDust]

McQuaid/Miller are also luxaries you can afford when your top 2 RD are on ELCs. Talent on ELC is such an absurdly strong item to have in a cap driven league. I think this year will be one of Toronto's best chances with Matthews and Marner still getting peanuts in regard to their on ice value. When Charlie gets paid, you'll see the McQuaids and Miller be let go and hopefully the next piece is ready to step up.

Yup, that's the league now, trying to find that peak season where you get synergy between your ELC contracts, medium term-medium money contracts (like a Kevan Miller or John Moore) and your expensive long-term core guys.

I thought Toronto's best chance was last year, but with the adding of Tavares + Marner/Matthews still on ELCs, it's probably next year.

The 2010 Blackhawks (the best team in the salary cap era IMO) was the model that teams should strive for in terms of the balance of ELCs and non-ELC contracts.

Hope you get that contract synergy where your team peaks, identify your core, slowly shift out your non-core non-ELC guys, and hopefully draft and develop well enough to fill the open spots with ELC players.