Transfer: Summer Transfer news and rumors discussion part 11: Sky Sports Deadline show

[KingLB]

A bunch of tier-one US reporters are saying that 19 year old FC Dallas RB Bryan Reynolds is going to transfer to Juventus for 6-7M in the winter transfer window. He's really more of a wingback. Former attacker. He can absolutely fly and he's like 6'3. Great attacking skills. Got him all the way to US youth teams as a striker/winger, and then they switched him in the last few years to RB. He's still learning to defend, but Juventus is buying potential here. If he learns to defend, he could be a star.

He also really started playing like 10 games ago! Once Cannon was sold to Boavista/Lille. Very rarely do you see MLS players moved on this quickly by Euro teams. Maybe MLS youth is starting to be viewed a bit differently after a decent number of success stories?

 

[Havre]

It is kind of odd how few Americans are playing in Europe. Really doesn't make any sense to me - been waiting for a wave for many years now. Not necessarily a wave of superstars, but a much bigger volume. Might be a scouting issue? The US is huge and the logistics of scouting is probably quite challenging. You can drive around in the UK, Spain or wherever in Europe and cover thousands if not hundreds of thousands of kids - obviously slightly more challenging in the US. Maybe that is a discussion for another place. Good to hear that there might be some development on that front. Would be good for football if the US was properly involved.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

It is kind of odd how few Americans are playing in Europe. Really doesn't make any sense to me - been waiting for a wave for many years now. Not necessarily a wave of superstars, but a much bigger volume. Might be a scouting issue? The US is huge and the logistics of scouting is probably quite challenging. You can drive around in the UK, Spain or wherever in Europe and cover thousands if not hundreds of thousands of kids - obviously slightly more challenging in the US. Maybe that is a discussion for another place. Good to hear that there might be some development on that front. Would be good for football if the US was properly involved.

I think that MLS salaries that these youngsters are better than what they would make in the European second divisions. That might explain why they stay home. Sure, for top prospects, this doesn't apply even though, would you stay home and make money or go to a top Academy with a long shot chance at making the first team? I mean, it might not only be scouting, also willingness to move.

 

[AB13]

We've signed 3 CBs since he took over and have like 4000 defenders on the books including a 27 million pound 19 year old CB prospect that he doesn't want to use at all. Shouldn't we logically target a number 10 considering we have 0 of them in the Premier League squad? Arteta is a f***ing psychopath.

 

[cgf]

He also really started playing like 10 games ago! Once Cannon was sold to Boavista/Lille. Very rarely do you see MLS players moved on this quickly by Euro teams. Maybe MLS youth is starting to be viewed a bit differently after a decent number of success stories?

Also worth mentioning the inflated re-sale-value that successful american prospects have due to their marketing potential.

 

[Havre]

We've signed 3 CBs since he took over and have like 4000 defenders on the books including a 27 million pound 19 year old CB prospect that he doesn't want to use at all. Shouldn't we logically target a number 10 considering we have 0 of them in the Premier League squad? Arteta is a f***ing psychopath.

He has learned from the best - Guardiola

 

[Havre]

I think that MLS salaries that these youngsters are better than what they would make in the European second divisions. That might explain why they stay home. Sure, for top prospects, this doesn't apply even though, would you stay home and make money or go to a top Academy with a long shot chance at making the first team? I mean, it might not only be scouting, also willingness to move.

I remember some time ago I looked at MLS salaries and I was shocked how low they are when you remove the "superstars". As far as I can see Reynolds was on USD 70k in 2019. Even a Norwegian club could match that for a solid talent (obviously a Norwegian club would never be able to find that talent - and spend that "much" on someone unknown to the club - but they could afford it).

Ola Kamara who I know well makes 260k. I'm not sure these days, but a lot of players made 260k in Norway some years ago. Since then I believe salaries have dropped, but if he had been younger and had some re-sale value he could have made 260k in Norway.

I believe salaries are higher in Sweden - and certainly for some teams in Denmark.

It's probably a bigger step to move for an American, but it really shouldn't be. We got Norwegian kids moving to Belgium, Portugal, Italy etc. and I would say that is probably a bigger move culturally and language wise compared to an American moving to a place like Denmark.

I know in Norway a lot of the "scouting" is based on a handful of "schools" in Africa linked to probably a handful of agents. Probably easier to go scattergun there than it would be for example with American players.

My guess is that there is some untapped potential there. If decent sized teams from Denmark, Belgium etc. established some contacts and built a network in the US there got to be players that would have loved to get their "footballing education" in Europe.

 

[bluesfan94]

To be fair, there are more Americans in Europe than you'd think, because no one talks about Edmundo Robinson (MyPa) or Stefan Antonijevic (Sogndal) or Jeffrey Gal (Degerfors).

 

[Havre]

I don't know if there is a "official" list anywhere, but I have seen lists and the numbers didn't exactly impress me. And that isn't criticising American players - quite the opposite I would imagine there would be room for a lot more. Obviously guesswork from my side based on demographics. Even if the game isn't big in the US you only need a small % of kids to play to outnumber the number of players found in small European countries like Norway, Croatia etc.

Of course culture comes into it. And which sports get the biggest natural talents etc. Even so there should be more good young players that would be more than good enough for European clubs that would pay more than they get paid in the US.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It is kind of odd how few Americans are playing in Europe. Really doesn't make any sense to me - been waiting for a wave for many years now. Not necessarily a wave of superstars, but a much bigger volume. Might be a scouting issue? The US is huge and the logistics of scouting is probably quite challenging. You can drive around in the UK, Spain or wherever in Europe and cover thousands if not hundreds of thousands of kids - obviously slightly more challenging in the US. Maybe that is a discussion for another place. Good to hear that there might be some development on that front. Would be good for football if the US was properly involved.

There are restrictions in place that makes it difficult. UK has a work permit policy. Nearly impossible in England, unless you are a senior National Team regular or being transferred in for a huge fee. Spain, France and Italy only allow a certain amount of foreigners per team, and it’s a very low number. Germany is the one bigger league where there aren’t these restrictions, and that’s why you see that all our best players usually start in Germany.

There are a small percentage of American players who possess an EU passport, and don’t face any restrictions, but I don’t think it’s even 25% of our players.

The mid-tier leagues might be better leagues to develop into good players than MLS, but they don’t pay as well, except for the very best teams in those leagues. There is still a small issue that some American players would prefer to live at home in LA or New York and be paid a higher salary than live in a small town in Netherlands or Belgium where they don’t know anyone, don’t speak the language, don’t know the culture, and are paid less.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I remember some time ago I looked at MLS salaries and I was shocked how low they are when you remove the "superstars". As far as I can see Reynolds was on USD 70k in 2019. Even a Norwegian club could match that for a solid talent (obviously a Norwegian club would never be able to find that talent - and spend that "much" on someone unknown to the club - but they could afford it).

Ola Kamara who I know well makes 260k. I'm not sure these days, but a lot of players made 260k in Norway some years ago. Since then I believe salaries have dropped, but if he had been younger and had some re-sale value he could have made 260k in Norway.

I believe salaries are higher in Sweden - and certainly for some teams in Denmark.

It's probably a bigger step to move for an American, but it really shouldn't be. We got Norwegian kids moving to Belgium, Portugal, Italy etc. and I would say that is probably a bigger move culturally and language wise compared to an American moving to a place like Denmark.

I know in Norway a lot of the "scouting" is based on a handful of "schools" in Africa linked to probably a handful of agents. Probably easier to go scattergun there than it would be for example with American players.

My guess is that there is some untapped potential there. If decent sized teams from Denmark, Belgium etc. established some contacts and built a network in the US there got to be players that would have loved to get their "footballing education" in Europe.

Reynolds actually signed a new contract this year where he’s paid about 500,000 USD per year.

I generally see your larger point. It’s getting better, but it’ll be more similar to the movements of the top South American countries than compared to the African countries. The lifestyle is so different for young players in Nigeria or Ghana than the USA. More American players are starting to migrate over there, but it won’t be to play for minimum wage in the second division of Norway to provide a better life for their family. There are a few who take these types of paths, but most will not move unless it’s a recognizable club.

 

[Havre]

Work permits is a fair point, but the players I'm talking about I don't think it is relevant. I'm not an expert on the different laws, but I don't see why kids from Africa would be given work permits, but not Americans. Might be special in France in the old colonies, but not relevant for a place like Denmark as far as I know.

Not necessarily a bad thing that Americans might just want to stay in the US, but it feels a bit odd considering how competitive Americans seem to be in general. If you do well even in a small league in Europe you are only one step away from a potential big move. Hauge just started for AC Milan after basically just one and a half season in the Norwegian Premier League.

And I bet there are a lot of young Americans far too good for the Norwegian league that no-one in Europe really know about. Not necessarily as good as Hauge, but good enough to play for solid teams after a season or two in a smaller league.

 

[eddygee]

I remember some time ago I looked at MLS salaries and I was shocked how low they are when you remove the "superstars". As far as I can see Reynolds was on USD 70k in 2019. Even a Norwegian club could match that for a solid talent (obviously a Norwegian club would never be able to find that talent - and spend that "much" on someone unknown to the club - but they could afford it).

Ola Kamara who I know well makes 260k. I'm not sure these days, but a lot of players made 260k in Norway some years ago. Since then I believe salaries have dropped, but if he had been younger and had some re-sale value he could have made 260k in Norway.

I believe salaries are higher in Sweden - and certainly for some teams in Denmark.

Reynolds actually signed a new contract this year where he’s paid about 500,000 USD per year.

This it's a outdated story about MLS players not getting paid well. Generally the stories people bring up are academy player who if they make the roster are on minimal "practice squad" salaries, the days off good underpaid MLS starters having to go to smaller leagues in Scandinavia to get paid are well over a decade old. The issue now is people complaining about wanting any MLS starlets to make the jump to just any Euro league because of the lack of knowledge that not just any Euro league is better, now a move is only beneficial if its a top 5 league or to a top side in a equivalent or slightly higher stature. i.e Turkey/Portugal/Holland.

This situation is complicated even more because alot of teams in those leagues want the MLS players but matching the MLS wage level the player was getting becomes. a issue. MLS teams salries range from 9 mil on the low end to around 25mil on the top. Think that shoots up after the new media deal especially on the high end with DP signings.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Work permits is a fair point, but the players I'm talking about I don't think it is relevant. I'm not an expert on the different laws, but I don't see why kids from Africa would be given work permits, but not Americans. Might be special in France in the old colonies, but not relevant for a place like Denmark as far as I know.

Not necessarily a bad thing that Americans might just want to stay in the US, but it feels a bit odd considering how competitive Americans seem to be in general. If you do well even in a small league in Europe you are only one step away from a potential big move. Hauge just started for AC Milan after basically just one and a half season in the Norwegian Premier League.

And I bet there are a lot of young Americans far too good for the Norwegian league that no-one in Europe really know about. Not necessarily as good as Hauge, but good enough to play for solid teams after a season or two in a smaller league.

Most of the players that come from Africa start in these smaller leagues where there aren’t these restrictions on who they can bring in. There are some who Kessie or the kid that signed with United from Atalanta that might start out in a mid-tier team in Italy, but they find workarounds. A lot of those kids were economic migrants to those countries. That’s not an issue in the USA on any large scale.

There are some Americans who come in their teenage years without a European passport, but it’s almost entirely players whose family moved over there for non-footballing reasons. That’s what FIFA requires. They’ve ruined the careers of players before by stopping them from playing at an academy due to it not being for non-football related reasons. Famously, the Japanese kid Kubo had to go back to Japan for a number of years for this reason. A player like Konrad de la Fuente, who just debuted for Barcelona on Tuesday, is an example of a player who came early for non-footballing reasons and benefited. Nicholas Gioacchini, who debuted for the National Team two weeks ago, is another. If you want more info on some of these players, I can provide it to you, but I won’t spam this thread with info I’m sure most don’t care about.

 

[Havre]

This it's a outdated story about MLS players not getting paid well. Generally the stories people bring up are academy player who if they make the roster are on minimal "practice squad" salaries, the days off good underpaid MLS starters having to go to smaller leagues in Scandinavia to get paid are well over a decade old. The issue now is people complaining about wanting any MLS starlets to make the jump to just any Euro league because of the lack of knowledge that not just any Euro league is better, now a move is only beneficial if its a top 5 league or to a top side in a equivalent or slightly higher stature. i.e Turkey/Portugal/Holland.

This situation is complicated even more because alot of teams in those leagues want the MLS players but matching the MLS wage level the player was getting becomes. a issue. MLS teams salries range from 9 mil on the low end to around 25mil on the top. Think that shoots up after the new media deal especially on the high end with DP signings.

It's not more outdated than you can easily find out what players make. And many are on around 300k and lower.

And not saying players are poorly paid. I know the handful Norwegians that have made the move have been better paid in the MLS than what they would have been in Europe.

Personally I would have tried to move to Europe if I could. Much in the same way I would have gone the opposite way if I was a hockey player. Even if it seems to be easier for good established hockey players to make the move across than for football players. By the way got a lot of North Americans playing hockey here. Even basketball. Just not football.

 

[eddygee]

It's not more outdated than you can easily find out what players make. And many are on around 300k and lower.

And not saying players are poorly paid. I know the handful Norwegians that have made the move have been better paid in the MLS than what they would have been in Europe.

Personally I would have tried to move to Europe if I could. Much in the same way I would have gone the opposite way if I was a hockey player. Even if it seems to be easier for good established hockey players to make the move across than for football players. By the way got a lot of North Americans playing hockey here. Even basketball. Just not football.

Fair point, here is a fairly little known but well sourced yearly publication that comes out on salaries, league revenue from TV deals etc. The section on MLS salaries from last year starts on page 90. It covers just about every sports league. During the days I was talking about over a decade ago, solid starters were making 50k and having to leave for Scandinavia to earn 200k salaries.
https://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2019.pdf

 

[mfilipo3]

Celta being linked with Mandzukic who is a free agent.

Wish he would go to Milan to back up Zlatan. He would be a perfect back up. Colombo isn't ready

 

[Havre]

Fair point, here is a fairly little know but well sourced yearly publication that comes out on salaries, league revenue from TV deals etc. The section on MLS salaries from last year starts on page 90. It covers just about every sports league. During the days I was talking about over a decade ago, solid starters were making 50k and having to leave for Scandinavia to earn 200k salaries.
https://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2019.pdf

Thanks. I think I came across that one time a long time ago myself.

Interesting, but I also find some of the numbers a bit hard to believe. In Norway tax returns are open and searchable (kind of) so it is quite easy to find out approximately what players are making. We cannot see what is pure salary from the club and what might be other sponsorship agreements, returns on shares etc., but it gives you a fair indication.

The best paid players in Norway in 2018 made around USD 300k. A few closer to 400k, but I'm guessing that would be linked to some other income. Also have to be said often pay is heavily linked to participating in Europa League (or the Champions League, but that doesn't really happen any longer). So they would not be making that as a base salary.

Median income in the MLS is 180k in that report. That number I don't doubt. If you are somewhere above average in the MLS without being a superstar my guess most of those players would be very very good players in the Norwegian league. Some of them would probably be "superstars" here. I guess that is my point. If a Norwegian club had confidence enough in a good young American player that club could easily match what that same young player would reasonably speaking be making early on in his career in the MLS. Problem is how would any Norwegian club be able to scout those players well enough to take that gamble?

And I am using Norway as an extreme example. Unless you are 18 and looking to meet some blonde girls I do not suggest that players should come here to develop (even if I got to give credit to those that have changed the youth setup in Norway - the amount of young talent coming through considering we mostly ski up here is staggering at the moment - and not only the "top end"), but if that is the situation in one of the smaller leagues in Europe then places like Denmark, Belgium, Portugal etc. should be x times more attractive. The more I think about it the more sense it makes. If I had worked for a medium sized Belgian club or small Portuguese I would have started to investigate if there was a way to build up a network in the US. Probably focused in specific areas. Makes even more sense considering the marketing potential - even if you are just gaining 2000 new fans that is huge for a "smallish" European club. For a Norwegian club that would be absolutely massive.

 

[robertmac43]

Isco and another CB would be fine by me. Szobozlai would be great too.

 

[eddygee]

Thanks. I think I came across that one time a long time ago myself.

Interesting, but I also find some of the numbers a bit hard to believe. In Norway tax returns are open and searchable (kind of) so it is quite easy to find out approximately what players are making. We cannot see what is pure salary from the club and what might be other sponsorship agreements, returns on shares etc., but it gives you a fair indication.

The best paid players in Norway in 2018 made around USD 300k. A few closer to 400k, but I'm guessing that would be linked to some other income. Also have to be said often pay is heavily linked to participating in Europa League (or the Champions League, but that doesn't really happen any longer). So they would not be making that as a base salary.

Median income in the MLS is 180k in that report. That number I don't doubt. If you are somewhere above average in the MLS without being a superstar my guess most of those players would be very very good players in the Norwegian league. Some of them would probably be "superstars" here. I guess that is my point. If a Norwegian club had confidence enough in a good young American player that club could easily match what that same young player would reasonably speaking be making early on in his career in the MLS. Problem is how would any Norwegian club be able to scout those players well enough to take that gamble?

And I am using Norway as an extreme example. Unless you are 18 and looking to meet some blonde girls I do not suggest that players should come here to develop (even if I got to give credit to those that have changed the youth setup in Norway - the amount of young talent coming through considering we mostly ski up here is staggering at the moment - and not only the "top end"), but if that is the situation in one of the smaller leagues in Europe then places like Denmark, Belgium, Portugal etc. should be x times more attractive. The more I think about it the more sense it makes. If I had worked for a medium sized Belgian club or small Portuguese I would have started to investigate if there was a way to build up a network in the US. Probably focused in specific areas. Makes even more sense considering the marketing potential - even if you are just gaining 2000 new fans that is huge for a "smallish" European club. For a Norwegian club that would be absolutely massive.

Good insights makes alot of sense, although alot of these kids get good advice there is a good bit that do not and would most certainly jump at the chance to make 200-300k in Norway and party with some blonde girls. Especially if they are a talented academy player making reserve minimum of 80k. That is still a area IMO where a league like the Eliteserien could capitalize. It's not a bad league I will catch a random match or two every few months on ESPN+.

 

[Savant]

We've signed 3 CBs since he took over and have like 4000 defenders on the books including a 27 million pound 19 year old CB prospect that he doesn't want to use at all. Shouldn't we logically target a number 10 considering we have 0 of them in the Premier League squad? Arteta is a f***ing psychopath.

I mean, he did learn from Pep

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

In January, I wish Spurs were to sign a midfielder that can compete with Sissoko and potentially offload Hojbjerg in some games. Because those two seem forced to play every big game for them.

 

[robertmac43]

Don't need to break the bank for a quality back end:

 

[Havre]

In January, I wish Spurs were to sign a midfielder that can compete with Sissoko and potentially offload Hojbjerg in some games. Because those two seem forced to play every big game for them.

I highly doubt Spurs will find a CM in January that could do a better job than Winks and Lo Celso. Even if they have been disappointing so far this season they are still good players - Lo Celso an excellent player. One would have to adjust the style slightly, but I do believe this squad got enough quality to be a bit more attacking minded than we are at the moment.

I get why Mourinho plays like this against City and Chelsea, but if Lo Celso can get properly match fit I do not see why he can't rest one out of Højbjerg and Sissoko. Also when we are talking about "rest" it is hardly a problem if Højbjerg and Sissoko are mainly playing the leauge matches.