Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part II

[TheWayToRefJose]

Thinking dougie trades Tierneys rights at the draft. That would leave us plenty of cap space for Tavares. No need for Tierney with Tavares anyways.

 

[Pistol Pete]

I think those contracts to Kovalchuk and Tavares are short of what they'll get.

Agreed. But if you could tell both Tavares and Kovy that if they took $1-1.5mil less per year than what they could make to play on a team that stacked, it would be worth considering imo. It’s not like $10mil is anything to sneeze at for Tavares. And $5mil for Kovy at 35 years old and having been out of the league for a number of years isn’t a huge insult. If they want a chance to win a cup next year and multiple cups in the near future, you take a little less to load up like the Warriors.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Probably not. I'd take a 7th or future considerations for him at this point as long as we're not taking back any salary.

I see absolutely no need for Kovalchuk if we sign Tavares. It's not realistic anyway.

If you can sign Tavares and still have one penny of remaining cap space, that one penny should be used along with any group of picks and prospects required to improve the D.

 

[Pistol Pete]

I’m not going to act like this is impossible, but the amount of “ifs” for this to workout are a little past realistic.

Well I think buying out Martin is realistic. Trading Karlsson without retaining salary is realistic. Trading Tierney is realistic. An $80mil cap sounds fairly realistic.

Tavares at $10mil isn’t that crazy. There’s speculation on what he needs contract wise but nothing definitive. Everyone thought Stamkos (a very similar player and situation) would be making $11-13mil per. Tavares has shown no signs of being a greed based human. If he leaves the Isles, it’s to win a cup. Most have speculated $11-12mil per for Tavares, $10mil isn’t that big of an insult imo to have a more stacked team. Kovy at $5mil isnt that crazy. Speculation was $6mil. He’s coming back to win a cup. If he could play with Tavares, Burns, Couture, Vlasic, Jones, Kane, Pavs, Hertl and Thornton, I’d think that’s tempting enough to leave a little on the table. And Thornton has already said he wants to stay. He’s 39 coming off of two straight years of major knee surgeries. He wants a cup. If he took a $1mil base, they can load it with bonuses that wouldn’t count towards the cap.

Although a lot has to go right, I do believe it’s more realistic than initially thought.

 

[Maladroit]

If you can sign Tavares and still have one penny of remaining cap space, that one penny should be used along with any group of picks and prospects required to improve the D.

Exactly. It seems exceedingly silly to add more wingers to this team while Justin Braun is still stinking it up on the top pairing. Tavares is the #1 need and if we sign him we probably won't have room to do anything else. But if we do, finding an upgrade at RD to pair with Vlasic would instantly become the #1 priority. Unfortunately I don't think management is aware of how far Braun has fallen these past two seasons.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

anything more than 1.2-1.5M for Tierney is a severe overpayment.

Demelo isn't worth more than 700k

This is both wrong.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Exactly. It seems exceedingly silly to add more wingers to this team while Justin Braun is still stinking it up on the top pairing. Tavares is the #1 need and if we sign him we probably won't have room to do anything else. But if we do, finding an upgrade at RD to pair with Vlasic would instantly become the #1 priority. Unfortunately I don't think management is aware of how far Braun has fallen these past two seasons.

We need an upgrade on Braun for sure and I’m not convinced that Dillon-Braun will work as a bottom pairing either. In theory they are both above that role in terms of talent/performance but I don’t foresee them playing together all that well.

 

[Maladroit]

This is both wrong.

Neither of them are worth those salaries to us at this point, which is all that matters.

 

[Maladroit]

We need an upgrade on Braun for sure and I’m not convinced that Dillon-Braun will work as a bottom pairing either. In theory they are both above that role in terms of talent/performance but I don’t foresee them playing together all that well.

Also spending over $6mil on a third pair is asinine given how tight to the cap we are. I would honestly be shopping Dillon at the draft too if I was DW. Every cent counts and replacing him with a $1.5mil UFA should be easy to do without a dropoff in play.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Neither of them are worth those salaries to us at this point, which is all that matters.

And again this is wrong.

 

[Ronnie Residue]

Well I think buying out Martin is realistic. Trading Karlsson without retaining salary is realistic. Trading Tierney is realistic. An $80mil cap sounds fairly realistic.

Tavares at $10mil isn’t that crazy. There’s speculation on what he needs contract wise but nothing definitive. Everyone thought Stamkos (a very similar player and situation) would be making $11-13mil per. Tavares has shown no signs of being a greed based human. If he leaves the Isles, it’s to win a cup. Most have speculated $11-12mil per for Tavares, $10mil isn’t that big of an insult imo to have a more stacked team. Kovy at $5mil isnt that crazy. Speculation was $6mil. He’s coming back to win a cup. If he could play with Tavares, Burns, Couture, Vlasic, Jones, Kane, Pavs, Hertl and Thornton, I’d think that’s tempting enough to leave a little on the table. And Thornton has already said he wants to stay. He’s 39 coming off of two straight years of major knee surgeries. He wants a cup. If he took a $1mil base, they can load it with bonuses that wouldn’t count towards the cap.

Although a lot has to go right, I do believe it’s more realistic than initially thought.

Yeah I definitely seen what you’re saying, I guess my biggest problem with this is I don’t feel like Thornton will take that kind of contract. Tavares is going to have a lot of interest if he doesn’t sign with the islanders, so I feel like he can get more than that and still be on a playoff team. I’d love it if you were right. Also part of me has to tell myself this is impossible to lower my expectations haha.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Also spending over $6mil on a third pair is asinine given how tight to the cap we are. I would honestly be shopping Dillon at the draft too if I was DW. Every cent counts and replacing him with a $1.5mil UFA should be easy to do without a dropoff in play.

here are all the defensemen making about $1.5 million

Jake McCabe
Adam Pelech
Mark Barbiero
Scott Mayfield
Ben Chariot
Jon Merrill
Deryk Engelland.

A bunch of #7's that I wouldn't play over Heed or Ryan. Or Dillon. Or Demelo.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

here are all the defensemen making about $1.5 million

Jake McCabe
Adam Pelech
Mark Barbiero
Scott Mayfield
Ben Chariot
Jon Merrill
Deryk Engelland.

A bunch of #7's that I wouldn't play over Heed or Ryan. Or Dillon. Or Demelo.

Most of those guys are so much better than DeMelo. We don’t need DeMelo to return anyway.

The other 3 Sharks players are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Most of those guys are so much better than DeMelo. We don’t need DeMelo to return anyway.

The other 3 Sharks players are irrelevant to the discussion.

Actually he specifically mentioned Dillon, so that was as relevant as could possibly be.

 

[Pistol Pete]

Yeah I definitely seen what you’re saying, I guess my biggest problem with this is I don’t feel like Thornton will take that kind of contract. Tavares is going to have a lot of interest if he doesn’t sign with the islanders, so I feel like he can get more than that and still be on a playoff team. I’d love it if you were right. Also part of me has to tell myself this is impossible to lower my expectations haha.

Haha fair enough. I know I should have lower expectations but I’m trying a new approach this offseason. I just want to put it out there and act like it could happen. Even if it’s not Tavares or Kovy or both of them, I fully expect a much better team heading into next season.

Regarding Thornton, he can still make a good chunk of money with a bonus heavy deal. Luckily it seems like he’s flexible to work with what they have after the draft and start of FA.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Actually he specifically mentioned Dillon, so that was as relevant as could possibly be.

My mistake, I didn’t even look at his post. For some reason I was thinking you were responding to Bizz’s post.

I actually do agree with you. Dillon is very valuable as a 3rd pairing defenseman if he is paired with a solid puck moving RHD. Dillon made a fantastic bottom pairing guy when he played with Schlemko and Heed, but DeBoer decided to screw over both of those players and staple Dillon to DeMelo. I’m fine with keeping one of Dillon or Braun but ideally, we add an RHD upgrade on Braun to pair with Vlasic, and we trade one of Dillon/Braun for a bottom pairing guy with more offensive upside and a cheaper cap hit.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Look, Trotz is available, dump PDB and grab him, I wanted Trotz before PDB anyway, now is our chance heh.

Seattle?

Edit: (stupid HF on mobile is acting super weird)

 

[AgentCooper]

What's going on with Jacob Trouba? Would Braun, Tierney, and 22 put us in the ballpark if he again decides he doesn't want to sign in Winnipeg?

 

[Maladroit]

here are all the defensemen making about $1.5 million

Jake McCabe
Adam Pelech
Mark Barbiero
Scott Mayfield
Ben Chariot
Jon Merrill
Deryk Engelland.

A bunch of #7's that I wouldn't play over Heed or Ryan. Or Dillon. Or Demelo.

I would take literally all of those guys except Engelland over DeMelo. But anyway the point of trading Dillon and replacing him with a guy like the ones you have listed isn't to improve the #5D slot, it's to gain additional cap space to fit Tavares/Hertl/Thornton's contracts and have the flexibility to upgrade on Braun.

Third pairings are barely consequential anyway and therefore not worth spending money on. The last four Stanley Cup champions have had complete garbage on their third pair. Hell Chicago in 2015 literally did not even play their 5th and 6th defensemen for huge stretches of the final two rounds.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Neither of them are worth those salaries to us at this point, which is all that matters.

This is just asinine. Tierney is easily worth at least $2-3M to nearly every team in the league. Sure he has some very real flaws in his game, but every player not in top 6 role, and even some of those, have just as many/significant flaws as Tierney. Just because a player isn't a lock for the All-Star game doesn't mean they are worthless.

 

[Maladroit]

This is just asinine. Tierney is easily worth at least $2-3M to nearly every team in the league. Sure he has some very real flaws in his game, but every player not in top 6 role, and even some of those, have just as many/significant flaws as Tierney. Just because a player isn't a lock for the All-Star game doesn't mean they are worthless.

Did I say Tierney is worthless? No. I said he's not worth $2+mil to us given that the plan is obviously to go after Tavares. We need every dollar we can save to do that and paying what would become our fourth line center over $2mil is just not a smart way to save money. Ideally our fourth line should clock in at less than $3mil combined next season to make the moves we want and need to make. Tierney is a fine player and I hope he thrives elsewhere. And I do think he deserves that salary I just don't want the Sharks to be the team paying it.

 

[LadyStanley]

Seattle?

Edit: (stupid HF on mobile is acting super weird)

Seattle already hired Tippett as senior advisor. Why would Trotz want to be a glorified scout for a couple of years with perhaps not having a coaching gig at the end of it?

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Did I say Tierney is worthless? No. I said he's not worth $2+mil to us given that the plan is obviously to go after Tavares. We need every dollar we can save to do that and paying what would become our fourth line center over $2mil is just not a smart way to save money. Ideally, our fourth line should clock in at less than $3mil combined next season to make the moves we want and need to make. Tierney is a fine player and I hope he thrives elsewhere. And I do think he deserves that salary I just don't want the Sharks to be the team paying it.

Frankly, I'd be happy to have Tierney as our 4c. It doesn't prevent us from signing Tavares, and he provides exceptional depth and someone who can step in at 3C for an extended period for injury replacement, and be serviceable as 2C (not saying he would excel) in an emergency. I just find it hilarious that if an otherwise valuable player is identified as potentially expendable in the case an upgrade is all the sudden available, their value to the team, according to your logic, next to nothing. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to think it's asinine.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Seattle already hired Tippett as senior advisor. Why would Trotz want to be a glorified scout for a couple of years with perhaps not having a coaching gig at the end of it?

Ah yes - forgot about Tippet. It was just a thought.

 

[Maladroit]

Frankly, I'd be happy to have Tierney as our 4c. It doesn't prevent us from signing Tavares, and he provides exceptional depth and some who could step in at 3C for an extended period for injury replacement, and be serviceable as 2C (not saying he would excel) in an emergency. I just find it hilarious that if an otherwise valuable player is identified as potentially expendable in the case an upgrade is all the sudden available, their value to the team, according to your logic, next to nothing. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to think it's asinine.

I'd be ecstatic to have Tierney as our fourth line center. He would instantly be one of the best fourth line centers in the league. You seem to believe I think Tierney is worthless but I don't. All I said, and you can scroll up and read the post, is that signing Tierney to be our fourth line center for over $1.5mil doesn't make sense given that we're operating under a salary cap and the contracts for Tavares, Hertl and Jumbo have to take obvious precedence as they're all vastly, exponentially more important to the team than Tierney.

You can do the math yourself and see that it's very difficult if not impossible to fit Tavares at $12mil, Hertl at $5.5mil and Jumbo at $3mil (plus bonuses) while also signing Tierney for $2+mil which I agree is what he deserves and what his value is after last season. So our best option is to trade him. It's not like he's going to be hard to replace.