Post-Game Talk: Stupid penalties and poor 5on5 play

[Drivesaitl]

Pretty bold statement for you to make and then post those stats.

So lets source it out. Where did you pull those numbers out of?

Do you even have a link?

??

NHL stats.

I directly cited Campbells starting record this season. How is that confusing?

Player Stats. Bottom rows are goalies, with their starting records listed.

Edmonton Oilers Club Stats | 2023 - 2024 | Edmonton Oilers

Stats for the Edmonton Oilers in the 2023 - 2024 season.

www.nhl.com

Jack Campbell : 34GS 21W 9L 4OTL Just compute the pts and % and proration manually.

 

[guymez]

Its a bit of a myth what "championship calibre" looks like. This team is no worse by any measure than the Caps that won the cup. Its comparable to Blues that won the cup.

Throughout NHL history some cup winning teams have been more loaded than others. This version of the Oilers on paper is good enough to get it done. We've had benefit of less injuries in playoffs this season and with our star players less impacted. This makes this a go year. This should be the season the Oilers are going all the way. You don't get this fortune, or many other contending teams exiting this many times.

Theres zero excuse for Nuge being this pedestrian in playoffs. The difference between winning a cup and being an also ran is a player like Nuge or Nicushkin rising up. With every peak contribution you get multiple series wins. Without it you have more trouble prevailing. Thing is the OIlers HAVE Kane and RNH. They should be making more of a difference. But they are on the roster,

The game isnt played on paper.
Also it isnt a myth that the bottom pairing on the Oilers is not championship caliber...unless of course you now believe that Deharnais would make the starting lineup on any past SC champion. In addition...what previous team would have Ceci as a top 4 dman?
That aside....you are making some confident statements about injuries and how they arent impacting players like RNH and Kane.
Not buying it.

??

NHL stats.

I directly cited Campbells starting record this season. How is that confusing?

Player Stats. Bottom rows are goalies, with their starting records listed.

Edmonton Oilers Club Stats | 2023 - 2024 | Edmonton Oilers

Stats for the Edmonton Oilers in the 2023 - 2024 season.

www.nhl.com

Jack Campbell : 34GS 21W 9L 4OTL Just compute the pts and % and proration manually.

LOL...where did you pull Campbells sv% from?

 

[Drivesaitl]

The game isnt played on paper.
Also it isnt a myth that the bottom pairing on the Oilers is not championship caliber...unless of course you now believe that Deharnais would make the starting lineup on any past SC champion. In addition...what previous team would have Ceci as a top 4 dman?
That aside....you are making some confident statements about injuries and how they arent impacting players like RNH and Kane.
Not buying it.


LOL...where did you pull Campbells sv% from?

I gave the Win percentage, not the save percentage. You had specifically stated that "Cambells starting record was beyond brutal."

That is false as I've now detailed and cited.

 

[PuckG]

The swings in this series have been extreme. We are very much in this series until we aren’t so I’m hopeful the boys come out strong and edge it out tonight to take it to game 7.

If not, fires aside, the weather has been outstanding I guess. We’ll barbecue without post season hockey.

 

[guymez]

I gave the Win percentage, not the save percentage. You had specifically stated that "Cambells win % was beyond brutal."

That is false as I've now detailed and cited.

So...your contention is that Campbell was the better goalie this season...correct?

 

[Drivesaitl]

So...your contention is that Campbell was the better goalie this season...correct?

There is no contention. I was merely correcting your false statement that "Campbells starting record was beyond brutal". That is the specific point I rebutted. The statement you made.

Your statement was wrong.

 

[guymez]

There is no contention. I was merely correcting your false statement that Campbells starting record was beyond brutal. That is the specific point I rebutted. The statement you made.

Your statement was wrong.

Show me how you arrived that that winning percentage. Does it include the games where Campbell was pulled?
Show your work.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Show me how you arrived that that winning percentage. Does it include the games where Campbell was pulled?
Show your work.

I've showed you exactly what NHL stats categorize as game starts. Both goalies were pulled in games. There would be some change in numbers all factored in but I'm not about to go through all 82 games to see. Again I gave you the NHL record for what they categorize as GameStarts.

So now you're arguing with me, and NHL stats?

You don't know how to calculate win % from the GS numbers given by NHL primary source?

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Show me how you arrived that that winning percentage. Does it include the games where Campbell was pulled?
Show your work.

If you're out here claiming that his win percentage sucks, isnt it on you to show your work?

 

[guymez]

I've showed you exactly what NHL stats categorize as game starts. Both goalies were pulled in games. There would be some change in numbers all factored in but I'm not about to go through all 82 games to see. Again I gave you the NHL record for what they categorize as GameStarts.

So now you're arguing with me, and NHL stats?

You don't know how to calculate win % from the GS numbers given by NHL primary source?

Nice try.
All you did was twist my words and make a claim that you cant support.

How many games did Campbell get pulled this season? If you cant answer that then your numbers dont tell enough of the story to have any relevance.

Oh by the way....I never said anything about winning percentage.

I said starting record.
You just decided to interpret that in a way that would be potentially favorable and now you refuse to detail your claim.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Show me how you arrived that that winning percentage. Does it include the games where Campbell was pulled?
Show your work.

Both goalies got a loss from when the other was pulled.

Campbell has a starting record of 21-8-4. =.697

Skinner has a starting record of 29-13-5. =.670

Campbell had a better starting record.

Nice try.
All you did was twist my words and make a claim that you cant support.

How many games did Campbell get pulled this season? If you cant answer that then your numbers dont tell enough of the story to have any relevance.

Oh by the way....I never said anything about winning percentage.

I said starting record.
You just decided to interpret that in a way that would be potentially favorable and now you refuse to detail your claim.

Yes, starting record, something that you're still wrong about.

 

[guymez]

If you're out here claiming that his win percentage sucks, isnt it on you to show your work?

I never used the words...winning percentage.
Draisaitl just made it up and then argued the point.

Classic strawman.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I never used the words...winning percentage.
Draisaitl just made it up and then argued the point.

Classic strawman.

"but his starting record is beyond brutal."

Proven wrong but still trying to argue.

Someone would tell you 2+2=4 and you'd be like, I dont believe them!

My post above, proves that you're demonstrably false.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Nice try.
All you did was twist my words and make a claim that you cant support.

How many games did Campbell get pulled this season? If you cant answer that then your numbers dont tell enough of the story to have nay relevance.

Oh by the way....I never said anything about winning percentage.

I said starting record.
You just decided to interpret that in a way that would be potentially favorable and now you refuse to detail your claim.


I never said that. Drivesaitl just made that up.

I'll specifically cite your complete post that I rebutted.


"I dont blame Woody at all for hesitating to start Campbell.
He may have been okay in relief so far this season but his starting record is beyond brutal.
If not for Skinner this team would have finished much lower in the standings."


Record and win % are both used in my rebuttal and are the same thing.

In this exchange for you to claim that I can't support statement is frankly bizarre.

Nor did I choose words. The italicized is your complete statement in the post I responded to

 

[guymez]

Both goalies got a loss from when the other was pulled.

Campbell has a starting record of 21-8-4. =.697

Skinner has a starting record of 29-13-5. =.670

Campbell had a better starting record.


Yes, starting record, something that you're still wrong about.

My intent was to reflect that Skinner was a more reliable goalie this season.
THAT is the premise I am arguing.

I stand by that claim.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I never used the words...winning percentage.
Draisaitl just made it up and then argued the point.

Classic strawman.

Theres no strawman. Only citation of actual numbers. The odd thing is that there are subjective things to argue about that are matters of opinion. Numerical numbers are not matters of opinion. I'm amazed this is being disputed.

My intent was to reflect that Skinner was a more reliable goalie this season.
THAT is the premise I am arguing.

I stand by that claim.

Fine. Then why not state that initially instead of the false statement? heh

 

[guymez]

Theres no strawman. Only citation of actual numbers. The odd thing is that there are subjective things to argue about that are matters of opinion. Numerical numbers are not matters of opinion. I'm amazed this is being disputed.


Fine. Then why not state that instead of the false statement? heh

I will repeat this for you as well.

My INTENT was to reflect that Skinner was a more reliable goalie this season.
THAT is the premise I am arguing.

I stand by that claim.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I will repeat this for you as well.

My INTENT was to reflect that Skinner was a more reliable goalie this season.
THAT is the premise I am arguing.

I stand by that claim.

This is as close as we're going to get to you retracting original statement isn't it? hehe

We're both a bit like this, I get it.

Just having some fun but everything I stated in the exchange was numerically supported.

cheers man. Hopefully the game tonight won't be aggravating.

 

[guymez]

Theres no strawman. Only citation of actual numbers. The odd thing is that there are subjective things to argue about that are matters of opinion. Numerical numbers are not matters of opinion. I'm amazed this is being disputed.


Fine. Then why not state that instead of the false statement? heh

@Tobias Kahun
Poor choice of words. Ill own that.
It didnt properly convey what I was trying to say.

The point still stands...Skinner was the better goalie this season.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Poor choice of words. Ill own that.
It didnt properly convey what I was trying to say.

The point still stands...Skinner was the better goalie this season.

Thanks for acknowledging.

The counting numbers like save % and GAA suggest Skinner is better. But they also could mean that the Oilers were a much higher scoring team with Campbell in net, they were, and that the team took more chances with Campbell in net and so played higher event hockey, but also slightly higher win % hockey with him in net.

The feel I get (subjective admitted) is that the team plays it more careful with Skinner the rookie in net. The team plays more to their goal scoring DNA with Campbell in net.

Anyway this is all moot point. Campbell won't be starting anytime soon..

 

[Ritchie Valens]

At the end of the day, I think this game broke the Oilers morale. Final 3 minutes of the game and they barely had the puck and struggled to even get it. Couple that with Oilers not being a great home team, series is over tomorrow I think.
It feels like the age old hockey player saying. “They just want it more”. It feels true here. Vegas players are hustling, playing hard and succeeding 5v5. Our guys really haven’t done that outside of a single game this series.

Maybe that changes by tomorrow but this teams mental seems a little cooked. Immediately give back goals and letting games slip away in a matter of minutes.

Again maybe they have grown since last year but we will see. Boys seem exhausted.

I think their mental state is just fine. It's the deflating goals which are killing them. Those goals on the next shift after taking a lead are killing them. The 5 on 3 goal...not much you could do there but the 4th goal was pretty soft.

Vegas also got the puck luck in game 5 with the puck that bounced off McDavids skate and right to a Knights player. Ceci misses a tap in by an inch or so, Bouchard hits the post. But, they have to look forward, not backwards and I think they'll be fine.

Pietrangelo's press conference could have also done some damage to the Knights too because since he said "I had to take matters in my own hands" he was inadvertently taking shots at the league's officials. Even though Vegas is one of Gary's favorite teams, he protects the officials the most.

 

[Drivesaitl]

At the end of the day, I think this game broke the Oilers morale. Final 3 minutes of the game and they barely had the puck and struggled to even get it. Couple that with Oilers not being a great home team, series is over tomorrow I think.
It feels like the age old hockey player saying. “They just want it more”. It feels true here. Vegas players are hustling, playing hard and succeeding 5v5. Our guys really haven’t done that outside of a single game this series.

Maybe that changes by tomorrow but this teams mental seems a little cooked. Immediately give back goals and letting games slip away in a matter of minutes.

Again maybe they have grown since last year but we will see. Boys seem exhausted.

Nothing is over until McDrai sez it is. heh. Drai even stated in first round after the 3 goal comeback that we're never done. They comeback

In normal instances I heed what you say. But these two players hardly be mortal, and they can shape results as we've seen.

 

[guymez]

Thanks for acknowledging.

The counting numbers like save % and GAA suggest Skinner is better. But they also could mean that the Oilers were a much higher scoring team with Campbell in net, they were, and that the team took more chances with Campbell in net and so played higher event hockey, but also higher win % hockey with him in net.

The feel I get (subjective admitted) is that the team plays it more careful with Skinner the rookie in net. The team plays more to their goal scoring DNA with Campbell in net.

Anyway this is all moot point. Campbell won't be starting anytime soon..

I also edited my original post just to make sure no one else goes down the same rabbit hole.

I am glad you acknowledged the fact that Skinner is a rookie. I think that fans tend to overlook that fact.
IMO Skinner has more than exceeded expectation with his performance this season and the team is lucky to have him as an option.
So as a result of that I tend to give him some leeway.
As I have pointed out many times Campbell is a vet goalie and paid to be the #1 goalie and because of his inability to perform it was necessary to replace him with a rookie goalie.

That suggests to me that Campbell hasnt at all earned the benefit of the doubt in terms of who to start.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I also edited my original post just to make sure no one else goes down the same rabbit hole.

I am glad you acknowledged the fact that Skinner is a rookie. I think that fans tend to overlook that fact.
IMO Skinner has more than exceeded expectation with his performance this season and the team is lucky to have him as an option.
So as a result of that I tend to give him some leeway.
As I have pointed out many times Campbell is a vet goalie and paid to be the #1 goalie and because of his inability to perform it was necessary to replace him with a rookie goalie.

That suggests to me that Campbell hasnt at all earned the benefit of the doubt in terms of who to start.

All reasonable points. Skinner is a rookie, but he's a block form goalie predominantly and not a reaction goalie. Given that there won't be much appreciation in his game unless he adapts because the NHL sharpshooters are adapting to block form goalies. The carbon graphite sticks are more precision than wood and NHL players are picking spots and corners. Even D now can aim top corner from the point.

Skinner when on does a lot well. he tracks pucks and play decently, has decent mobility and is square to shooter a lot of the time.

What Skinner does not do well is playing the puck or using his paddle. Skinner also has a weaker glovehand and part of this is holding glove down as part of his block form style and then having farther to make glove hand to a shot going glove top corner. He's gotten beat the most there in playoffs.

Campbell is more a reaction style goalie. Campbell has a better glove hand. Wise coaches change it up just to give opponents a different look. Especially opponents that can get real frustrated if they're not scoring, like Vegas.

All kinds of Vet goalies have poor seasons. A team should not give up on a goalie on just one season results.

 

[guymez]

All reasonable points. Skinner is a rookie, but he's a block form goalie predominantly and not a reaction goalie. Given that there won't be much appreciation in his game unless he adapts because the NHL sharpshooters are adapting to block form goalies. The carbon graphite sticks are more precision than wood and NHL players are picking spots and corners. Even D now can aim top corner from the point.

Skinner when on does a lot well. he tracks pucks and play decently, has decent mobility and is square to shooter a lot of the time.

What Skinner does not do well is playing the puck or using his paddle. Skinner also has a weaker glovehand and part of this is holding glove down as part of his block form style and then having farther to make glove hand to a shot going glove top corner. He's gotten beat the most there in playoffs.

Campbell is more a reaction style goalie. Campbell has a better glove hand. Wise coaches change it up just to give opponents a different look. Especially opponents that can get real frustrated if they're not scoring, like Vegas.

All kinds of Vet goalies have poor seasons. A team should not give up on a goalie on just one season results.

There is no doubt that there are aspects of Skinners game that need work.
We completely agree on that point.
Pretty standard though for an NHL rookie to have things that need improvement.

For the record...I am not saying that they should give up on Campbell.
He will have a new start next season to redeem himself. If he has a rough start next season then I think the team has no choice but to cut bait.

I should say though that based on Campbells less than stellar history I am not all that convinced that he is even a legit #1 NHL goalie. He may be a solid part of a tandem though.