GDT: Streaking in Dallas

[Stickpucker]

I had some stuff going and seen it was 4-0 in the first and didn't bother turning it on.

Faulk was the 2nd star with 2 PPGs. So there's that.

You actually missed a really fun game.

 

[DaleCooper]

I fell asleep when we were down 4-1 and woke up at 5-5.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I still feel Ward didn't play either of the first 2 goals very well and that's what I don't like about it. As much as people are letting the skaters off the hook, the same is being applied by some towards Ward. I'm not saying they were "soft" or only his fault, but he gave himself pretty much no chance on them, regardless of the defense. I agree that Benn had a good chance and placed the shot well, but he was too far in the net and gave Benn too much open net to shoot at. You do that against just about most NHLers and they'll score more often than not.

Could have it been different if he played it better and gave Benn less net to shoot at? Maybe he get's a piece of it then, maybe he doesn't. Maybe with less net to shoot at, Benn changes his shot and misses, maybe he doesn't. The point is, we'll never know because he never gave it much of a chance. I'm not saying the goal is ONLY Ward's fault and never did, just that I didn't like how he played it. There was plenty of blame to go around last night for sure.

Seems like we say that a lot this year, whether a defender plays it well or doesn't...."Well, Ward didn't play it well, but it was a great shot." That's my overall problem with Ward this year. When he was at his best, his positioning was sound, his mechanics were solid, he always seemed poised and calm, didn't give guys much too shoot at and made a number of saves on shots that an average/below average goalie wouldn't. I don't see that this year.

Re: goal 3 and 4, not sure how anyone could blame Ward for those, particularly the Seguin goal and it's not like Lack has been the answer either.

EDIT: and did that 3rd goal go off of Hainsey? Sure looks like it hit something, but they gave it to Oduya so it must have been Hainsey?

 

[The Stranger]

I still feel Ward didn't play either of the first 2 goals very well and that's what I don't like about it. As much as people are letting the skaters off the hook, the same is being applied by some towards Ward. I'm not saying they were "soft" or only his fault, but he gave himself pretty much no chance on them, regardless of the defense. I agree that Benn had a good chance and placed the shot well, but he was too far in the net and gave Benn too much open net to shoot at. You do that against just about most NHLers and they'll score more often than not.

With regard to the 2nd goal...I know Tripp immediately critiqued Ward's depth...but how much farther out do you want him to be in that situation? Three Stars entering the zone with speed, Benn has the puck at the dot and there's guys 10 feet to the left and 10 feet in front...and he's at the left corner of the crease.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

With regard to the 2nd goal...I know Tripp immediately critiqued Ward's depth...but how much farther out do you want him to be in that situation? Three Stars entering the zone with speed, Benn has the puck at the dot and there's guys 10 feet to the left and 10 feet in front...and he's at the left corner of the crease.

Hard to say exactly, but he was a bit too deep and should have been out more to give up less of the net. Yeah, I know it's very easy to critique watching on TV, but there is very little margin in the NHL so if a goalie doesn't play it almost perfectly, they are going to have a tough time stopping the shot. Again, I'm not saying the goal was all Ward's fault, nor am I saying it was a softy, but I think he could have played it better and given himself a chance and that's all I'm saying. I agree that the criticism of Ward on pretty much every single goal is over the top and unwarranted, but the notion that you portray (whether intended or not) that any time the skaters have any sort of hiccup or anytime a player makes a good shot, it completely absolves the goalie of any fault is just as over the top.

As I said, there's enough blame to go around on this team. Ward's and Lack's struggles aren't solely because of a bad team in front of them, but on the flipside, put a better goalie in and I wouldn't expect much different results (unless that goalie is Carey Price). The team still can't score, still has terrible special teams, still has rookies on defense, etc...

It's not as black and white as everyone wants to make it seem (ie..it's all the goalies fault or it's all the skaters fault).

 

[Stickpucker]

Hard to say exactly, but he was a bit too deep and should have been out more to give up less of the net. Yeah, I know it's very easy to critique watching on TV, but there is very little margin in the NHL so if a goalie doesn't play it almost perfectly, they are going to have a tough time stopping the shot. Again, I'm not saying the goal was all Ward's fault, nor am I saying it was a softy, but I think he could have played it better and given himself a chance and that's all I'm saying. I agree that the criticism of Ward on pretty much every single goal is over the top and unwarranted, but the notion that you portray (whether intended or not) that any time the skaters have any sort of hiccup or anytime a player makes a good shot, it completely absolves the goalie of any fault is just as over the top.

As I said, there's enough blame to go around on this team. Ward's and Lack's struggles aren't solely because of a bad team in front of them, but on the flipside, put a better goalie in and I wouldn't expect much different results (unless that goalie is Carey Price). The team still can't score, still has terrible special teams, still has rookies on defense, etc...

It's not as black and white as everyone wants to make it seem (ie..it's all the goalies fault or it's all the skaters fault).

We've been scoring at well above a 1.67 goal a game clip.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Since his name has been thrown out there, also blame Rask for taking that penalty late in the game.

 

[bleedgreen]

^Anyone in mind?

Of the contenders I can't think of a young goalie any of them have worth going after. It's not like Anaheim is in a position to trade Gibson for Staal.

I Don't think it's possible, but I find the Bishop/Vasilevsky issue an interesting one. Yzerman has paid big prices for something he wants. He gave a first for Coburn. Just spit balling, but maybe Estaal and murphy at the deadline for the kid and something. Or maybe we give one of our goalie prospects. I know. It's ridiculous. I know a prospect board assumes they would trade Bishop but he's signed long term and has done well overall despite the flak he takes.

Anaheim probably would trade Anderson. I know he isnt a prospect but he's a probable improvement.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Goalies are such a crap shoot, as we've seen, probably because it's such a mental position. Maybe the best bet is to just keep spending some of our extra 2nd/3rd/4th round picks hoping we get a gem?

 

[DaveG]

Goalies are such a crap shoot, as we've seen, probably because it's such a mental position. Maybe the best bet is to just keep spending some of our extra 2nd/3rd/4th round picks hoping we get a gem?

That's where I'm at. If we keep getting extra mid-round picks then by all means we should throw one a year at the position.

Booth and Altshuller are both good examples of what we should be going after. And fact of the matter is, most of the bluechip goalie prospects out there and over the last 5-10 years haven't been the first round guys. Vasilevsky is the one exception to that. But guys like Andersen, Gbison, Mrazek, etc. were found in the mid rounds (or 7th with the case of Andersen and us).

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

That's where I'm at. If we keep getting extra mid-round picks then by all means we should throw one a year at the position.

Booth and Altshuller are both good examples of what we should be going after. And fact of the matter is, most of the bluechip goalie prospects out there and over the last 5-10 years haven't been the first round guys. Vasilevsky is the one exception to that. But guys like Andersen, Gbison, Mrazek, etc. were found in the mid rounds (or 7th with the case of Andersen and us).

I forget who it was, but I am pretty sure someone in our front office once said that their goal is to leave every draft with at least one goalie.

 

[Joe McGrath]

That's where I'm at. If we keep getting extra mid-round picks then by all means we should throw one a year at the position.

Booth and Altshuller are both good examples of what we should be going after. And fact of the matter is, most of the bluechip goalie prospects out there and over the last 5-10 years haven't been the first round guys. Vasilevsky is the one exception to that. But guys like Andersen, Gbison, Mrazek, etc. were found in the mid rounds (or 7th with the case of Andersen and us).

Yeah I mean that's clearly the organizations method currently. It's not a bad strategy, especially since any kid you draft is probably a minimum of 2 years away from turning pro, probably more. No commitment necessary too early on, especially if it happens to be a college guy. If you have 8-10 picks in a given draft, why not?

 

[A Star is Burns]

As far as goalies, there have been a ton of recent serviceable or better goalies that were undrafted free agents from the CHL, Europe, and College. Us signing Tirronen was a good sign of trying to mine some goalie talent from that method. Those guys are often closer to ready to play being more mature as well. Like everyone says, just keep plucking goalies from drafting and signing until you get guys that stick consistently.

 

[RodTheBawd]

I'm not ready to give up on Lack yet, but we'll obviously need someone else to fulfill a 1B/2 roll if he turns it around. His problems appear to be more mental than anything else. Let him get a few starts in a row and see if he can't just shake it off. After, of course, calling up 2 AHLers and letting him and Ward watch from above.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I'm not ready to give up on Lack yet, but we'll obviously need someone else to fulfill a 1B/2 roll if he turns it around. His problems appear to be more mental than anything else. Let him get a few starts in a row and see if he can't just shake it off. After, of course, calling up 2 AHLers and letting him and Ward watch from above.

They already re-signed Lack, so we can't even give up on Lack if we wanted to. I feel like he's trying to learn what the goalie coach is teaching him and is just completely uncomfortable with it. Maybe that gets worked out with a bunch of starts, or maybe the style they are trying to teach don't mesh well with his skillset or his mindset.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Sometimes it seems like goalie coaches do more harm than good when trying to change what a goalie does. I remember a few seasons ago a goalie coach messing with Braden Holtby's game and he was awful for a while. I'm sure that it's not entirely on the coach or coaches that Lack has fallen apart to the extent that he has thus far. Could just be mental or lack of reps or gout. But there have certainly been instances where a goalie and goalie coach have different philosophies and it's detrimental to the goalie.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Sometimes it seems like goalie coaches do more harm than good when trying to change what a goalie does. I remember a few seasons ago a goalie coach messing with Braden Holtby's game and he was awful for a while. I'm sure that it's not entirely on the coach or coaches that Lack has fallen apart to the extent that he has thus far. Could just be mental or lack of reps or gout. But there have certainly been instances where a goalie and goalie coach have different philosophies and it's detrimental to the goalie.

Let's hope not.

 

[RodTheBawd]

They already re-signed Lack, so we can't even give up on Lack if we wanted to. I feel like he's trying to learn what the goalie coach is teaching him and is just completely uncomfortable with it. Maybe that gets worked out with a bunch of starts, or maybe the style they are trying to teach don't mesh well with his skillset or his mindset.

I was referring more to the sentiment here, feels like everyone is giving up on him.

 

[The Stranger]

Sometimes it seems like goalie coaches do more harm than good when trying to change what a goalie does. I remember a few seasons ago a goalie coach messing with Braden Holtby's game and he was awful for a while. I'm sure that it's not entirely on the coach or coaches that Lack has fallen apart to the extent that he has thus far. Could just be mental or lack of reps or gout. But there have certainly been instances where a goalie and goalie coach have different philosophies and it's detrimental to the goalie.

How much of Holtby's turn-around is due to Korn vs making Trotz HC and spending big cash on Niskanen and Orpik?

Korn has a great resume and reputation, but I doubt Holtby's numbers would be nearly as good if Korn was the only change made.

 

[Stickpucker]

How long has Marcoux been here now?

 

[VAcaniac]

No one is giving any credit to Dallas for being deadly in the offensive zone and on the rush, or assessing any of the obvious blame that we weren't remotely up to snuff on even trying to keep up with them in the first.

Are you insinuating that we're not very good against teams that love to play off the rush (SEE LIGHTNING, TAMPA BAY)??

Or very good against any teams, but that's another story...

 

[Lucky Lindy]

How long has Marcoux been here now?

Since Peters, so 1½ year.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

How much of Holtby's turn-around is due to Korn vs making Trotz HC and spending big cash on Niskanen and Orpik?

Korn has a great resume and reputation, but I doubt Holtby's numbers would be nearly as good if Korn was the only change made.

It was probably some of both, but there were a number of comments and stories about how the change the coaches (under Oates) demanded of Holtby affected his play and his confidence. The mental aspect of goaltending is probably as important (if not more important) than the physical piece, so a coaching change, going back to a style he prefers and gaining confidence can easily improve a goalies numbers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...f65b84-c733-11e3-b708-471bae3cb10c_story.html

“Nothing against what the philosophy was with the changes,” Holtby said Monday. “I think it just had to do with my personality, my natural instincts that didn’t quite coincide with the changes, and that led to a lot of second-guessing myself and a lot of overthinking things. The moment you start doing that you start to struggle, and once you struggle, obviously your confidence goes down a bit.”

I think when a goalie himself admits this, it's a pretty big piece of the puzzle.

 

[The Stranger]

I watched quite a bit of Holtby in 2013-14...he clearly didn't trust the skaters to make plays and started cheating...this led to bad goals and a loss in confidence.

Korn is a great coach, but I believe the big difference is the big step the team took in bringing Trotz and a couple top 4 guys.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I watched quite a bit of Holtby in 2013-14...he clearly didn't trust the skaters to make plays and started cheating...this led to bad goals and a loss in confidence.

Korn is a great coach, but I believe the big difference is the big step the team took in bringing Trotz and a couple top 4 guys.

Well, I think in a case like this when the goalie HIMSELF said he the changes in approach led to him overthinking it and losing his confidence, I tend to believe it. Yeah, I get he's not going to throw his teammates under the bus, but there were a number of reports about how uncomfortable he was with these changes and how it affected him, so I don't think he's just being politically correct here. I'm not saying the addition of Trotz and the D didn't have an impact, of course it did, as they are a much more sound defensive team, so that definitely adds to it. I just think you are downplaying the other aspects too much. IMO, they both contributed.

Based on your posts, you seem to be of the opinion that everything to do with a goalies performance is completely due to the skaters in front of him and the goalie himself can have no blame (or no credit in this case). While of course the 2 go hand in hand, there's no denying that, it's the really good goal tenders that can rise above that. For instance, a great team like Chicago can carry Crawford (or Detroit in years past with Lidstrom) and make him look better than he is and a great goalie like Price can make the Habs look better than they are. Unfortunately most teams need a bit of both and the Canes have neither right now.

EDIT: reworded as it didn't come out well and came across dickish, which wasn't my intent. Added some also.