Confirmed with Link: Stone(50%) to Calgary for 2017 3rd and Conditional 2018 5th.

[KG]

Just because teams have overpaid for Roman Polak and Douglas Murray in the past doesn't make this a bad deal. If it's a bad deal, it's because Stone is a marginal player, not because Chayka got rolled.

What do we think a "savvy" GM would have gotten for an asset like Stone? A 2nd and a contract?

Have to agree with Pho. Our expectations are colored by his play before the injury. Hard to imagine he's worth much more this year.

 

[PhoPhan]

But it's important to note that he wasn't all that great before the injury, either. He put up decent point totals last year because he had some powerplay time and lots of soft even strength minutes, but he's never been better than mediocre at generating or suppressing shots.

I think people see decent point totals and a big body and assume he's Shea Weber-lite. He's Ron Hainsey-lite.

 

[KG]

But it's important to note that he wasn't all that great before the injury, either. He put up decent point totals last year because he had some powerplay time and lots of soft even strength minutes, but he's never been better than mediocre at generating or suppressing shots.

I think people see decent point totals and a big body and assume he's Shea Weber-lite. He's Ron Hainsey-lite.

Fair enough. He's a homegrown player, so people are always more attached to those as well.

 

[PhoPhan]

The endowment effect is very real.

 

[Kaizen]

Anybody have the details on the conditional 5th? Is it if Calgary resigns him at any point in the summer or is only if its prior to some particular point in time ie. the expansion draft, entry draft, free agency?

 

[hbk]

Anybody have the details on the conditional 5th? Is it if Calgary resigns him at any point in the summer or is only if its prior to some particular point in time ie. the expansion draft, entry draft, free agency?

Usually it's re-sign period

 

[Hinterland]

There will be trades coming who'll make this deal look extremely stupid.

Hainsey is crap and yet the Pens still pay a 2nd. On yet another bad season and already a healthy -16. Downwards trend continued this season despite putting up a few more points than in recent seasons. Nowhere near the level of a Stone who just had a few bad games after returning from injury.
Wait for Tippett to give away Hanzal for a 4th and Vrbata for a 7th or some total plugs

...unless this was just another one of his genius moves like putting Holland on the PP to troll the opposition. Maybe he just did this to get the teams attention?
Surely now lots of GM's are calling the Coyotes after the Stone Deal

 

[Guest]

Noone is "freaking out".

You are really hung up on that comment. That was not specifically directed towards you, FYI. On the main board there were a lot of people saying that Chayka got fleeced and some of that was lingering into our thread here itself. "Freaking out" may have been a little excessive, but if I said "I do not understand why people are reacting irrationally" it may been perceived incorrectly as well.

 

[hbk]

I don't think we got fleeced. Market is the market. Stones value is low based on his play. Very likely many teams had him red circled as a "do not want" player given the year he's had. Maloney and Treliving know Stone as well as anyone so they would have likely paid the most. Did we miss out on moving that pick up another 15-20 picks by selling early. Maybe. But if Calgary falls out of a playoff spot do they elect not to make a move at all. Then the marke will disappears and you are looking at a worse pick potentially.

 

[Guest]

I don't think we got fleeced. Market is the market. Stones value is low based on his play. Very likely many teams had him red circled as a "do not want" player given the year he's had. Maloney and Treliving know Stone as well as anyone so they would have likely paid the most. Did we miss out on moving that pick up another 15-20 picks by selling early. Maybe. But if Calgary falls out of a playoff spot do they elect not to make a move at all. Then the marke will disappears and you are looking at a worse pick potentially.

Can I just tell you what I am thinking and you can wordsmith it nicely like that for me from now on? If there is one user I will pay attention to on here it has always been you.

 

[Hinterland]

I don't think we got fleeced. Market is the market. Stones value is low based on his play. Very likely many teams had him red circled as a "do not want" player given the year he's had. Maloney and Treliving know Stone as well as anyone so they would have likely paid the most. Did we miss out on moving that pick up another 15-20 picks by selling early. Maybe. But if Calgary falls out of a playoff spot do they elect not to make a move at all. Then the marke will disappears and you are looking at a worse pick potentially.

You can put it whatever way you want...Hainsey is crap. And this not breaking news. Stone hasn't even played a bad season...just a few bad games. After that, he played solid minutes. He didn't contribute offensively the way he used to but to say that he was bad is just wrong. Our defense right now getting demolished by Chicago. Do I think that Stone would have helped them tonight? Absolutely.

 

[Ebb]

As I reflect on this, I'm thinking TipKa let Stone go to Calgary as a pre-cursor for some sort of future deal. I don't think it will be by the TDL, but we could possibly see Hamilton in a Coyotes uniform next season. It's doubtful, but you never know...

 

[hbk]

You can put it whatever way you want...Hainsey is crap. And this not breaking news. Stone hasn't even played a bad season...just a few bad games. After that, he played solid minutes. He didn't contribute offensively the way he used to but to say that he was bad is just wrong. Our defense right now getting demolished by Chicago. Do I think that Stone would have helped them tonight? Absolutely.

Stone's been crap the majority of the season. Even F you ignore eye test there are numerous blogs on advanced stats that have outlined just how historically crappy he's been this season. Did he play less crappy as season progressed. Sure.

I don't think Stone would have made Smith look better tonight. This was a turd. Lots of passengers.

 

[Hinterland]

Stone's been crap the majority of the season. Even F you ignore eye test there are numerous blogs on advanced stats that have outlined just how historically crappy he's been this season. Did he play less crappy as season progressed. Sure.

I don't think Stone would have made Smith look better tonight. This was a turd. Lots of passengers.

I don't know what sites you look at but from what I see, Stone is (tied with Goligoski) the best regular in terms of +/- of all defenders. And that's despite him facing the toughest opposition and getting by far the most defensive zone starts and the least offensive zone starts. Quite obviously he was the guy Tippett used in the toughest possible situations and apart from the first few games he did really well. Remember he did this for the 2nd worst team in the NHL. Hainsey played on a better team, against easier competition, with more offensive zone starts and less defensive zone starts and yet still failed miserably...once again.

It's pointless trying to justify the Stone deal. There is no way to do so. It's nothing but horrible.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't know what sites you look at but from what I see, Stone is (tied with Goligoski) the best regular in terms of +/- of all defenders. And that's despite him facing the toughest opposition and getting by far the most defensive zone starts and the least offensive zone starts. Quite obviously he was the guy Tippett used in the toughest possible situations and apart from the first few games he did really well. Remember he did this for the 2nd worst team in the NHL. Hainsey played on a better team, against easier competition, with more offensive zone starts and less defensive zone starts and yet still failed miserably...once again.

It's pointless trying to justify the Stone deal. There is no way to do so. It's nothing but horrible.

I would have liked to see a bit more in the Stone trade, but it takes two teams to deal. Do you think Chayka only called Calgary about Stone? The entire league knew Stone was available, and when the other teams gave their offer Calgary's was the best for the Coyotes. IF Pittsburgh offered the same deal, I would think the Yotes preferred to have another roster spot available to them to use for TTD. Just because you like Stone better than Hainsley, doesn't mean the GM"s do. Like hbk stated, we got market value.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It's pointless trying to justify the Stone deal. There is no way to do so. It's nothing but horrible.

We traded an expiring UFA asset who at best is a 5th or 6th defenseman (and he was not playing his best) for picks. That's a good trade.

My only issue with the trade was that the pick assets we got back are, to me, underwhelming. In a poor draft you need to look for something higher than a 3rd and a conditional 5th that we likely won't cash in. Maybe there was no market for a 2nd, or maybe Chayka just wanted to get the deal done.

But Stone was gone no matter what, so getting something back - even if it turns out to be a bag of pucks - is better than letting him go for nothing.

 

[hbk]

I don't know what sites you look at but from what I see, Stone is (tied with Goligoski) the best regular in terms of +/- of all defenders. And that's despite him facing the toughest opposition and getting by far the most defensive zone starts and the least offensive zone starts. Quite obviously he was the guy Tippett used in the toughest possible situations and apart from the first few games he did really well. Remember he did this for the 2nd worst team in the NHL. Hainsey played on a better team, against easier competition, with more offensive zone starts and less defensive zone starts and yet still failed miserably...once again.

It's pointless trying to justify the Stone deal. There is no way to do so. It's nothing but horrible.

Plus minus is a questionable stat a team best. Any possession stat site has Stoneas a huge anchor when he's on the ice.

Quick google search caught one analysis. http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2017/2/20/14676314/is-michael-stone-a-good-addition

Edit. Just thinking about this now. If Chayka has a bias towards analytics to eye test I do see the potential for him to sell low based on metrics. That being said the metrics they use are light years ahead of the Corsi crap. That being said the eye test wasn't pretty this year.

 

[Hinterland]

Plus minus is a questionable stat a team best. Any possession stat site has Stoneas a huge anchor when he's on the ice.

Quick google search caught one analysis. http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2017/2/20/14676314/is-michael-stone-a-good-addition

Edit. Just thinking about this now. If Chayka has a bias towards analytics to eye test I do see the potential for him to sell low based on metrics. That being said the metrics they use are light years ahead of the Corsi crap. That being said the eye test wasn't pretty this year.

You are calling +/- a questionable stat...I agree...but if you know how to read it...not that much. Like I said...Stone played the toughest opposition and received the fewest OZ starts and the most DZ starts. If that guy is still tied for first in terms of +/-, he probably wasn't all that bad.

Isn't what you mentioned all about shots for/against when the player is on the ice? Isn't that even more questionable? Ask Jumbo Joe about the importance of shots.

 

[hbk]

You are calling +/- a questionable stat...I agree...but if you know how to read it...not that much. Like I said...Stone played the toughest opposition and received the fewest OZ starts and the most DZ starts. If that guy is still tied for first in terms of +/-, he probably wasn't all that bad.

Isn't what you mentioned all about shots for/against when the player is on the ice? Isn't that even more questionable? Ask Jumbo Joe about the importance of shots.

I want to believe in analytics but I don't believe the current metrics properly show causation. Correlation to a degree but it feels like using pre-school math when you should be using calculus. Im always hesitant to draw conclusions solely on the public metrics. AZ is using better advanced metrics but can't comment as I don't have access to the data.

 

[Mosby]

I do have to chuckle at Stone ending up in Calgary. Reeks of Don Maloney. Totally unimaginative. Just bring back the same faces.

 

[PhoPhan]

I want to believe in analytics but I don't believe the current metrics properly show causation. Correlation to a degree but it feels like using pre-school math when you should be using calculus. Im always hesitant to draw conclusions solely on the public metrics. AZ is using better advanced metrics but can't comment as I don't have access to the data.

No one should draw conclusions based solely on metrics, public or private. They're used to add context and supplement traditional scouting, not to replace it.

 

[hbk]

No one should draw conclusions based solely on metrics, public or private. They're used to add context and supplement traditional scouting, not to replace it.

Agree completely. However, there is war of arrogance going on between the two sides that I find amusing. Our lovely blogger on Hockeybuzz is a prime example. Calls traditional views narrow minded and then claims nobody respects his analytic viewpoint. Love when close minded people complain about others being closed minded.

 

[PhoPhan]

Agree completely. However, there is war of arrogance going on between the two sides that I find amusing. Our lovely blogger on Hockeybuzz is a prime example. Calls traditional views narrow minded and then claims nobody respects his analytic viewpoint. Love when close minded people complain about others being closed minded.

You're better off just not reading Hockeybuzz altogether, to be honest. You're right that there are closed-minded idiots on both sides, but the majority of progressive writers I follow acknowledge the value (and pitfalls) of traditional methods while forging new analytical models that move the whole process forward.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Plus minus is a questionable stat a team best. Any possession stat site has Stoneas a huge anchor when he's on the ice.

Quick google search caught one analysis. http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2017/2/20/14676314/is-michael-stone-a-good-addition

Edit. Just thinking about this now. If Chayka has a bias towards analytics to eye test I do see the potential for him to sell low based on metrics. That being said the metrics they use are light years ahead of the Corsi crap. That being said the eye test wasn't pretty this year.

That being said just what do people really think that a 3rd pairing D on rental is worth?

 

[Grimes]

I do have to chuckle at Stone ending up in Calgary. Reeks of Don Maloney. Totally unimaginative. Just bring back the same faces.

Ha! Good point. This is something that has changed in year one of Chyaka. Didn't Calgary sign Grossman this year too for a stint?