Still pissed Nosek left unprotected...

[Frk It]

Relax guys... no reason to go at each other in a thread about Tomas Nosek.

 

[Reddwit]

Protecting Abby was nothing more than a gesture of respect. Everyone and their brother knew he wasn’t going to be taken and no skater that was going to be taken was going to have any significance to the team, including Nosek.

Now, you can query whether or not serving up picks/prospects to Vegas in order to have them select Abby was a missed opportunity but given the state of the team at the time and the cost it took other teams to secure Vegas taking on their cap dumps, I feel like just suffering through Abby was the right choice thus far.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

For those with literacy challenges: Holland traded Tatar at a relative low

He really didn't.

Tatar was a 50 point winger signed at 50 point winger money. He got 3 draft picks (one of which was a 1st rounder, which at that time was realistically like the 24OA, not 30th. Vegas had a surprise run to the title). That's not low value for a guy like that. Tatar had essentially topped out in Detroit.

 

[briggzee1]

Abdelkader wouldn't have been taken. And it's decently likely that Nosek would be in the Wade Megan, Christopher Ehn role.

Why does everyone come out of the woodwork to ***** about some average NHL player that we let go. How about a Brad Marsh reset? I think we really ****ed up by not letting him play. That Bob Boughner really deserved a shot over that weak Swedish kid we drafted a round later back in 1989.

Classic case of people over valuing players on the team they cheer for. It happens all the time. There are 100 Nosek's out there.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Ok, you got me. Tatar was so obviously at his zenith. Can we establish that as "fact"?

Tomas Tatar Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I mean, his zenith in Detroit? Yeah, I think we can.

56,45,46. He was a 45-55 point winger for three straight years here. And was tracking to be about 40 points at the time of the trade.

I'd probably put him at ending up between 52-56 points this year. Unless you somehow think he had another step to take that he didn't in three straight seasons with rapidly devolving talent around him. Tomas Tatar is a 2nd line winger who's a great depth scoring option. He wasn't on a bargain contract (it was market value). A 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is a good return for a player like that.

 

[briggzee1]

Protecting Abby was nothing more than a gesture of respect. Everyone and their brother knew he wasn’t going to be taken and no skater that was going to be taken was going to have any significance to the team, including Nosek.

Now, you can query whether or not serving up picks/prospects to Vegas in order to have them select Abby was a missed opportunity but given the state of the team at the time and the cost it took other teams to secure Vegas taking on their cap dumps, I feel like just suffering through Abby was the right choice thus far.

I used to give Abby the benefit of the doubt but it's really hard at this point to even have any respect for his game. I think we all knew he was a product of playing with Datsyuk and getting increased minutes on the top line and PP. He was a good PP guy and fit in well with what that line needed. At this point he has 25 goals in the last 3 years and is a -45 on a team that could really use some leadership and 10-15 goals a year. Contract is an albatross and we are just going to have to ride this one out.

 

[abbbaron]

This is a major deflection. You aren't going to convince anybody by asserting Tatar was sold at a lower relative value if you can't come up with comparables to demonstrate it. That's kind of the point of using the term "relative" in this context. Relative to what?

Relative to himself, his career. Thought that would've been clear

 

[Ezekial]

You know who sold low on Tatar?

f***in Vegas.

 

[abbbaron]

Tomas Tatar Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I mean, his zenith in Detroit? Yeah, I think we can.

56,45,46. He was a 45-55 point winger for three straight years here. And was tracking to be about 40 points at the time of the trade.

I'd probably put him at ending up between 52-56 points this year. Unless you somehow think he had another step to take that he didn't in three straight seasons with rapidly devolving talent around him. Tomas Tatar is a 2nd line winger who's a great depth scoring option. He wasn't on a bargain contract (it was market value). A 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is a good return for a player like that.

^ I think we're being a little generous. 28pts through 62 games is .45pts/gm, that's 37pts over 82 games, which would've been a career worst. And that's assuming he would've kept pace on a team that was ready to mail it in so they hit the links 6wks later.
So yeah, zenith...

 

[abbbaron]

You know who sold low on Tatar?

****in Vegas.

It's almost criminal how McPhee can spend assets like a drunken sailor and yet they're still sitting pretty

 

[abbbaron]

He really didn't.

Tatar was a 50 point winger signed at 50 point winger money. He got 3 draft picks (one of which was a 1st rounder, which at that time was realistically like the 24OA, not 30th. Vegas had a surprise run to the title). That's not low value for a guy like that. Tatar had essentially topped out in Detroit.

Um no, Vegas was leading the Western Conference at the trade deadline last year. And there weren't 7 Eastern clubs with more points than them.
That Tatar topped out in Detroit, you could've said the same thing about Nyquist at that point. And you would've been wrong

 

[briggzee1]

It's almost criminal how McPhee can spend assets like a drunken sailor and yet they're still sitting pretty

For now anyways. I love his strategy. If you feel you have the squad to win a cup then go for it. Answer questions later. Have some of his moves cost some valuable draft picks? Yes, but the work he did at the expansion draft to get a lot of those picks was absolute GM'ing 101.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

^ I think we're being a little generous. 28pts through 62 games is .45pts/gm, that's 37pts over 82 games, which would've been a career worst. And that's assuming he would've kept pace on a team that was ready to mail it in so they hit the links 6wks later.
So yeah, zenith...

The **** is your point then? Tatar was trending WAY down if anything. So he should have a far worse return than 1,2,3.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

For now anyways. I love his strategy. If you feel you have the squad to win a cup then go for it. Answer questions later. Have some of his moves cost some valuable draft picks? Yes, but the work he did at the expansion draft to get a lot of those picks was absolute GM'ing 101.

Yeah. A lot of it was idiot GMs sending him assets for fun or using them as a dumping ground and the guys they dumped took a huge leap.

A 1st to take William Karlsson and David Clarkson
Another pick + Reilly Smith essentially to take Marchessault
etc.

I mean, Florida simply handed them two thirds of one of the best lines in hockey for a 4th round pick.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I'm still not over losing Joey MacDonald (for real actually).

 

[abbbaron]

The **** is your point then? Tatar was trending WAY down if anything. So he should have a far worse return than 1,2,3.

Go back and read. I'm not here to repeat myself over and over again

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Relative to himself, his career. Thought that would've been clear

So is your argument he should have been worth more than he got at the time of the trade or that Holland should have traded him sooner?

And no, you are not making yourself clear whatsoever.

 

[briggzee1]

Yeah. A lot of it was idiot GMs sending him assets for fun or using them as a dumping ground and the guys they dumped took a huge leap.

A 1st to take William Karlsson and David Clarkson
Another pick + Reilly Smith essentially to take Marchessault
etc.

I mean, Florida simply handed them two thirds of one of the best lines in hockey for a 4th round pick.

Can someone please do this for us ?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm still not over losing Joey MacDonald (for real actually).

Me neither. Joey Mac kicked ass.

I also unironically liked Mathieu Dandenault.

Go back and read. I'm not here to repeat myself over and over again

Nyquist had his near PPG season in a contract year when he got an emerging Larkin as his C. Tatar in his contract year had 40 points. Tatar wasn't getting better. I understand what you're trying to say. I just think it's inane and wrong. Tomas Tatar was not improving in his last three years with the Wings and he was not ever going to be more than he was here.

And he wasn't "undersold". That's a fine price for a 2nd line wing. That's all Tatar is, was, and ever will be.

So, repeat your nonsense about him being traded at a discount or whatever nonsense.

 

[izlez]

Here's a fun fact that a lot of people seem to be over-looking, as I witnessed in the other thread complaining about low-level players: People in hockey organizations have eyes, and they are allowed to use them...at all times

"Selling low" on a player is a pretty absurd idea, barring a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR turnaround. Tatar's value isn't going down because he had a slightly down couple weeks or half a season. The people making those decisions were aware of Tatar for years and years and years. Before they made their decision, they went back and reviewed years and years of information.

All this goes to the ridiculous idea of "showcasing" players. How insane would a GM have to be to specifically go out of his way to create as small of a sample size as possible, when all of the stats, data, and video are readily available going back to minor hockey. Tomas Tatar was never viewed as a better NHL player than at the time he was dealt

 

[abbbaron]

Me neither. Joey Mac kicked ass.

I also unironically liked Mathieu Dandenault.



Nyquist had his near PPG season in a contract year when he got an emerging Larkin as his C. Tatar in his contract year had 40 points. Tatar wasn't getting better. I understand what you're trying to say. I just think it's inane and wrong. Tomas Tatar was not improving in his last three years with the Wings and he was not ever going to be more than he was here.

And he wasn't "undersold". That's a fine price for a 2nd line wing. That's all Tatar is, was, and ever will be.

So, repeat your nonsense about him being traded at a discount or whatever nonsense.

Tatar had 40pts in his contract year??? Which year was that?
Together with the bit about Tatar being at his zenith last season and how Vegas' 1st was trending around 24thOA, why should I take anything you say seriously?

 

[abbbaron]

So is your argument he should have been worth more than he got at the time of the trade or that Holland should have traded him sooner?

And no, you are not making yourself clear whatsoever.

Again, go back and read. Holland didn't need to trade Tatar at that point (a relative low in his career, and by extension his trade value)-- he wasn't an asset that would've otherwise withered on the wine. Successful traders buy low and sell high; suckers do it the other way around. So there's that.
Deeper in the decision tree (if for whatever reason Tatar needed to be traded-- but again, he didn't need to be), looking at the last couple deadlines there are players in the same ball park as Tatar who, as rentals, fetched similar returns. And given the premium that GMs put on cost certainty/cost control, you'd think that ought to enhance Tatar's value substantially relative to most rentals. That's essentially why I don't see a 30thOA + 2nd + 3rd as anything worth cheering about.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Tatar had 40pts in his contract year??? Which year was that?
Together with the bit about Tatar being at his zenith last season and how Vegas' 1st was trending around 24thOA, why should I take anything you say seriously?

No, he wasn't at his zenith last season. He was already trending downwards. His zenith was three years ago at 56 points. When multiple years show him trending down, you can't count 56 points as what you expect from him. And sorry, Tatar had 46 points, not 40. I screwed up the years. He only had 34 points after he signed his deal.

And

1. The teams that did not qualify for the playoffs the previous season (picks 1–15)
2. The teams that made the playoffs in the previous season but did not win either their division in the regular season or play in the Conference Finals (picks 16–23 up to 27)
3. The teams that won their divisions in the previous season but did not play in the Conference Finals (potentially picks 24–27)
4. The teams that lose in Conference Finals (picks 28 and 29)
5. The team that was the runner-up in the Stanley Cup Finals (pick 30)
6. The team that won the Stanley Cup in the previous season (pick 31)

How about you don't act like Vegas making the finals wasn't a shock. They were the 5th OA team in the league by record. And they were not favored against Winnipeg and it was considered a toss-up series between them and San Jose. So... they would have been in the 24-27 bracket by what could reasonably be expected at the TDL.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Again, go back and read.

I did, and still assert you do not do a good job of demonstrating your assertion or clarifying your position.

 

[abbbaron]

No, he wasn't at his zenith last season. He was already trending downwards. His zenith was three years ago at 56 points. When multiple years show him trending down, you can't count 56 points as what you expect from him. And sorry, Tatar had 46 points, not 40. I screwed up the years. He only had 34 points after he signed his deal.

And

1. The teams that did not qualify for the playoffs the previous season (picks 1–15)
2. The teams that made the playoffs in the previous season but did not win either their division in the regular season or play in the Conference Finals (picks 16–23 up to 27)
3. The teams that won their divisions in the previous season but did not play in the Conference Finals (potentially picks 24–27)
4. The teams that lose in Conference Finals (picks 28 and 29)
5. The team that was the runner-up in the Stanley Cup Finals (pick 30)
6. The team that won the Stanley Cup in the previous season (pick 31)

How about you don't act like Vegas making the finals wasn't a shock. They were the 5th OA team in the league by record. And they were not favored against Winnipeg and it was considered a toss-up series between them and San Jose. So... they would have been in the 24-27 bracket by what could reasonably be expected at the TDL.

Vegas was leading the Western Conference at the trade deadline; that they would've eventually went on to represent the West in the Finals was not a shock.
Could you please provide evidence (from people who have actual skin in the game) that supports your 24thOA prediction. And by that I mean not odds that were being spit out during the course of the playoffs, because guess what-- those are utterly irrelevant. The trade was made at the trade deadline, where the actors involved were constrained to using information that was available only up to that point.