Still pissed Nosek left unprotected...

[Bench]

Um, how dare Holland not invest in biological research to keep Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg forever young! Stars age team has to go through a transition. No society, company and whatever hierarchy you can think of has gotten to the top without falling down to its competitors.

So see, this is a perfect example of trying to paint the argument as absurd with hyperbolic language.

My response to you is, while I do not expect the Wings to maintain a championship caliber roster throughout the ages, other managers and organizations have proven you can set yourself up better for success in a shorter amount of time that the Wings. The Wings prospect pool is still a massive question mark compared to much of the competition.

Now for every success story there's an Arizona. So sure, if the bar for the Wings is they haven't been as bad as a historically troubled franchise, then mission accomplished. But I assumed our top shelf owners and Hall of Fame GM were aiming a little higher.

 

[Invictus12]

Which teams have done it in the short amount of time that you speak of? Boston and thats about it. As I recall however, half this fan base weren't satisfied picking middle to later round picks when this team was making playoffs. So, either Boston was badly managed but very lucky franchise or there were options that Holland pursued that wasn't tanking but didnt hit luck. Choose your poison.

 

[Bench]

Which teams have done it in the short amount of time that you speak of? Boston and thats about it. As I recall however, half this fan base weren't satisfied picking middle to later round picks when this team was making playoffs. So, either Boston was badly managed but very lucky franchise or there were options that Holland pursued that wasn't tanking but didnt hit luck. Choose your poison.

The team sucks. The prospect pool is shallow. It made bad decisions to get here. How is this up for debate?

Wide range between expecting greatness and the current situation. That's my poison. It could be better.

 

[Dotter]

The only reason Holland got a late 1st, 2nd and 3rd for Tatar is because GMGM figured out too late that he wasn't going to get Karlsson. When McPhee struck out on Karlsson and was up against the deadline, he was eager to make a splash in order to signal to his team that the organization was all in / "win now". Had McPhee landed Karlsson, he wouldn't have dealt for Tatar, so Tatar would either still be a Wing or would have brought in an even lower return...
A late 1st (the 30th overall would've been a 2nd rounder twenty years ago), a 2nd and a 3rd for a 50pt top six winger on a fair contract with 3 yrs of term left was no coup for Holland. If anything, Holland sold Tatar at a relative low point.

And given that Holland seems pretty self-assured that he has the Seattle gig waiting for him, people may well have a reason to be pissed given that he's managing assets he could soon be picking from. Look out for incoming NMC/NTCs...

Holyshit is this entire post dedicated to discrediting Ken Holland's trade of Tatar for a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd?

KH patiently waited it out and won the trade. Nothing else to be said, really. All the other stuff is moot.

Lol@ Ken Holland selling Tatar too low, WTF! Seriously? Joe Veleno says hi!

 

[Shaman464]

I don't think the person you're replying to came across as "outraged" at all. And I think they bring up a great point about the bigger picture of why the team is so bad today.

It's been a cascade of poor choices, some larger than others, but even the small ones indicative of the decision making that creates a bottom five team that also has carried a high salary.

Every team is going to make small mistakes. Not protecting a player like Nosek is what most teams did, and some teams exposed far more talented players. This is just a complete non-issue.

 

[Flowah]

Looked good here, has looked good in Vegas. Wish him all the best.

Yes agreed. And also with your reasoning about why we should have exposed someone else.

I don't think anyone believes that Nosek is some worldbeater. But he's a damn decent player, youngish, useful, cheap. Unlike other guys on the team, lol.

 

[Invictus12]

The team sucks. The prospect pool is shallow. It made bad decisions to get here. How is this up for debate?

Wide range between expecting greatness and the current situation. That's my poison. It could be better.

The team suck right now, sure. However, we ACTUALLY HAVE plenty of depth on the actual roster that is young and a few prospects that are certainly showing alot of promise. Again, which decisions you speak off? Letting the old core get old? Then I have news for you! You are making a bad decision every day of your life then.

Oh and yeah, there are reasonable expectations as there are constructive criticisms but your expectation is that it simply falls out of the sky. The fact that things take time to build and rebuild don't seem to factor in at all.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The "woodwork" was the game last night vs. VAN. Nosek is on the 3rd line now and they said playing very well. He's 6'3 and 26 y/o- I think a more effective player than a lot of the Wings we're watching decline as the months go by.

I don't see any roster spot as insignificant. To me it sucks that, as said, in the expansion draft the Wings chose loyalty over the more sensible option. If we had held on to Nosek maybe another useless vet is traded. Mangers should always be looking to improve the lineup while planning for the future.

This team is terrible and the reason can't be blamed solely on lower draft picks.

It's not that I view the roster spot as insignificant. It's that I view the difference between Jacob De La Rose and Tomas Nosek as insignificant. If Nosek were still here and wasn't claimed in that draft, he wouldn't be looked at as being "young, cheap, and useful" He'd be looked at in the same vein as DLR. If you took Jacob De La Rose off this roster, would anyone actually even notice?


Also....

Detroit Red Wings Protected and Unprotected Lists Revealed

• Petr Mrazek
• Luke Glendening
• Darren Helm
• Riley Sheahan
• Xavier Ouellet
• Drew Miller
• Ben Street
• Ryan Sproul
• Jared Coreau
• Martin Frk
• Eric Tangradi
• Jonathan Ericsson
• Niklas Kronwall
• Brian Lashoff
• Jake Paterson
• Dylan McIlrath
• Adam Almquist
• Louis-Marc Aubry
• Colin Campbell
• Edward Pasquale
• Justin Abdelkader

I took the Wings unprotected list and swapped Nosek for Abdelkader. We weren't losing a bad contract.

Vegas easily takes Glenny, Sheahan, Ouellet, or Frk long before any of our contracts we wanted to lose. But you know, let's not let facts get in the way of a good ol' fashion complaining session about how we screwed up horribly. Tomas Nosek is an average NHL 4th line grinder. Our team would not be materially different today if we protected him over Justin Abdelkader in the expansion draft. It's not "wasting a roster spot" or "thinking it's insignificant". Justin Abdelkader is a better hockey player than Tomas Nosek. You can hate his contract, but he's indisputably a better player.

 

[Henkka]

This is coming from the same GM that couldn't find a way to keep Emmerton on the team! Or Mursak. Or Lebda!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!

Also losing Nestrasil and Pulkkinen on waivers was devastating!

Holland has no eye for NHL talent.

 

[Wyzer Plan]

How did this get to 2 pages? Nosek is a complete non factor in the NHL. I give it a couple years and he won't even be playing in the NHL.

 

[Bench]

Every team is going to make small mistakes. Not protecting a player like Nosek is what most teams did, and some teams exposed far more talented players. This is just a complete non-issue.

I'm saying the Nosek situation is indicative of a consistent problem where the Red Wings have favored more expensive options that fail to produce to the level they are paid. Nosek alone isn't an issue. Of course not, why do you keep insisting on trying to paint it like I think this one thing is the key. It's not about any one guy.

It's a marker. It's that same tree of bad decisions that occurred a dozen times that leaves you with a terrible, low potential, expensive roster. Writing off losing Nosek over another player is missing the forest for the trees.

Caesar got stabbed 23 times on the Senate floor. So too did the Wings empire. Inevitable as a fall may be, avoiding a few stabs makes your zombie rise significantly faster.

 

[Bench]

But you know, let's not let facts get in the way of a good ol' fashion complaining session about how we screwed up horribly.

This shit isn't happening from the people you're replying to. And it makes engaging in a conversation about smaller roster moves and the larger influence they bring a total chore that always has to be prefaced with "Hi! Can I talk about areas this hockey team could improve in small ways without immediately being told I'm an overreacting complainer?"

 

[Winger98]

Yes agreed. And also with your reasoning about why we should have exposed someone else.

I don't think anyone believes that Nosek is some worldbeater. But he's a damn decent player, youngish, useful, cheap. Unlike other guys on the team, lol.

He is, and I liked him. Would I rather have him than Gator right now? Yeah, especially since it would likely mean the Wings made a different decision regarding Gator's last contract.

Hoping we see a different approach with the team as the new core fully takes over and guys like Helm and Gator are transitioned off. Holland has talked about liking the Patriots' way of managing their team, but they ruthlessly cut guys who don't fit while hanging onto the few guys who are the real engines of that club. If we were to really have patterned the Wings after them, Helm and Gator would have been moved, cheaper guys moved in, etc. I don't want to see us giving Glendening $4m a year for five years after this current contract is up.

Also losing Nestrasil and Pulkkinen on waivers was devastating!

Holland has no eye for NHL talent.

To be fair to Nestrasil, his career wasn't cut short because he couldn't hack it in the NHL. Guy was always getting hurt and they seemed to take too big of a toll for him to continue to be effective. Really liked his game, too.

I'm saying the Nosek situation is indicative of a consistent problem where the Red Wings have favored more expensive options that fail to produce to the level they are paid. Nosek alone isn't an issue. Of course not, why do you keep insisting on trying to paint it like I think this one thing is the key. It's not about any one guy.

It's a marker. It's that same tree of bad decisions that occurred a dozen times that leaves you with a terrible, low potential, expensive roster. Writing off losing Nosek over another player is missing the forest for the trees.

Caesar got stabbed 23 times on the Senate floor. So too did the Wings empire. Inevitable as a fall may be, avoiding a few stabs makes your zombie rise significantly faster.

et tu, Bettman? Et tu?

How lousy the team has been the past few years probably has masked this issue a bit. We all (or most) don't care for the Gator and Helm deals, among others, but it hasn't really hurt us. But if we had a team that was actually good, and where an additional million or five would be really helpful, then keeping those two while moving Janmark, Jarnkrok, and Nosek out would sting a bit more.

If someone wanted to really belabor the point, they could probably work this all the way back to the Hossa vs Hudler/Sammy/whoever thing. And then hauling Cocacola, Sammy (again), Tootoo, etc. in for the lockout shortened season.

As the team has become worse, Holland has seemed to move harder in the direction of shifting those type of guys out in favor of picks/kids. But it's curious if he'd revert to that earlier form if put into a position of maintaining a good team rather than trying to build it. Of course, it looks pretty likely that's not a decision that will be entirely his for much longer, so it's likely moot.

 

[HIFE]

It's not that I view the roster spot as insignificant. It's that I view the difference between Jacob De La Rose and Tomas Nosek as insignificant. If Nosek were still here and wasn't claimed in that draft, he wouldn't be looked at as being "young, cheap, and useful" He'd be looked at in the same vein as DLR. If you took Jacob De La Rose off this roster, would anyone actually even notice?


Also....

Detroit Red Wings Protected and Unprotected Lists Revealed

• Petr Mrazek
• Luke Glendening
• Darren Helm
• Riley Sheahan
• Xavier Ouellet
• Drew Miller
• Ben Street
• Ryan Sproul
• Jared Coreau
• Martin Frk
• Eric Tangradi
• Jonathan Ericsson
• Niklas Kronwall
• Brian Lashoff
• Jake Paterson
• Dylan McIlrath
• Adam Almquist
• Louis-Marc Aubry
• Colin Campbell
• Edward Pasquale
• Justin Abdelkader

I took the Wings unprotected list and swapped Nosek for Abdelkader. We weren't losing a bad contract.

Vegas easily takes Glenny, Sheahan, Ouellet, or Frk long before any of our contracts we wanted to lose. But you know, let's not let facts get in the way of a good ol' fashion complaining session about how we screwed up horribly. Tomas Nosek is an average NHL 4th line grinder. Our team would not be materially different today if we protected him over Justin Abdelkader in the expansion draft. It's not "wasting a roster spot" or "thinking it's insignificant". Justin Abdelkader is a better hockey player than Tomas Nosek. You can hate his contract, but he's indisputably a better player.

I guess you don't watch much of Vegas. Abdelkader is a better player than Nosek? That's a joke. Abdelkader can't skate, make or catch a pass, he and the Glendening line are slowly becoming a liability. Also Nosek is a more refined player than JDLR. He's three years younger but at this moment not at all the same impact. You say 4th liner and I'm telling you he's now on their 3rd. So Nosek wasn't a factor to their SC Final appearance last season?

I agree there's no imagining the Knights take one of our unwanted contracts, but for me it's the principle of who was protected, and it's lame. Oh well I'm not losing sleep over it. I don't intend to rehash the Jarnkrok discussion either, but it's been brought up before- with those players on the team, would Nielsen and Helm have been looked at as necessary?

As Bench said, these are small decisions but for me they've added up to a mound of you know what that can't be shoveled away for years.

 

[kliq]

This **** isn't happening from the people you're replying to. And it makes engaging in a conversation about smaller roster moves and the larger influence they bring a total chore that always has to be prefaced with "Hi! Can I talk about areas this hockey team could improve in small ways without immediately being told I'm an overreacting complainer?"

If you want to make this into a bigger picture conversation, look at any other thread on the board as pretty much every conversation tends to head in this direction.

Ken Holland has made plenty of mistakes over the years, there is no denying that. However this is simply not one of them. I completely understand the logic behind not wanting to protect Abby in the expansion draft, however had we protected Nosek over Abby the outcome is not better, in reality it didn't matter.

If we protected Nosek, most likely the player chosen by Vegas is Mrazek, a player who we later traded for picks. I would rather have those picks then Nosek. Now, my guess is that you will counter that we should have protected Mrazek and Nosek and exposed Abby and Mrzek...ok. Most likely scenario in that situation, Glendeing or Sheahan are taken. I'd rather have the picks we got for Sheahan then Nosek, and I'd definitely rather have Glendening then Nosek. People are trying to frame this as if Vegas was going to take Abby, that was never going to happen as nobody is every taking that awful contract.

Regardless, I understand your point, you don't like that the Wings are loyal to a fault. I see your point, there is some truth there, however I do believe this narrative is blown our of proportion, and the direction our team went it was more so due to the cyclical nature of the sport. The Wings were bound for a drop off and now people are taking something that at one time was considered a strength of the organization and are making it into a weakness, loosing will do that. This is the way Mike Illitch operated his teams, and this is the culture he created, I just can't blame Holland for continuing to foster that environment. If the down side to this mentality is that we loose Nosek instead of Glendening, I fail to see the true ramifications of this move.

Look, I get it. You are not happy with the a lot of the moves Holland has made. I wont even argue you on that, between 2013-2017 a lot of mistakes were made that prolonged the re-build, you will not get an argument from me about that. However, with that said lets not make minor moves that truthfully had zero impact on the franchise into something they are not.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Someone smarter than me, please explain why Kenny protected Abdelkader over a young guy who has Strength and Power in the Corners?
Still pissed that we lost Nosek.

Don't worry, if Holland sticks around as GM he is sure to re-acquire Nosek and sign him to an awful contract. It's the Red Wings Way under Holland!

 

[Oddbob]

Now, we a re bellyaching over losing a 6th liner? Unreal! It is time to let go of the rage for bad contracts, as Ken Holland has been making the right moves the past 3 seasons, and Tomas Nosek is as much a nothing burger as ever there was! The cap keeps going up, and the bad deals are getting shorter each year, so eventhough Abdelkader sucks, he will be gone soon enough, and as early as this next season he won't be of any affect on our salary cap.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

This **** isn't happening from the people you're replying to. And it makes engaging in a conversation about smaller roster moves and the larger influence they bring a total chore that always has to be prefaced with "Hi! Can I talk about areas this hockey team could improve in small ways without immediately being told I'm an overreacting complainer?"

I do apologize. It wasn’t fair to paint it that way, particularly not quoting who I did.

But the thing is, protecting Abby over Nosek isn’t a mark of something. It isn’t an indicator of poor team building or anything like that. Hell, the decision wasn’t even made between Abdelkader and Nosek or anything like that.

I actually normally am not too violent in my rebuttals/arguments on player moves, but it’s something with Nosek and other similar moves that is like “do I use a thimble to bail out my sinking ship or a shot glass?” That yeah, one move might be better but you’re still borked either way.

I guess the overriding point is that losing Nosek isn’t indicative of anything. They signed him as an international FA, had him in GR and gave him a cup of coffee and then deemed he wasn’t going to be part of their future. And realistically, he hasn’t done anything to prove them wrong.

What it comes down to though is that the Wings are in dire straits not because of death by one thousand cuts. Not by bleeding and/or overpayment of mid range players or mere player attrition. They’re in dire straits because outside of Dylan Larkin they’ve done nothing in terms of landing a big fish. I mean, you can focus on the small transactions and what not, but they’re not remotely close to why the team is in the shape it’s in. The minor moves have provided middle six forwards and bottom pairing D in abundance. Them having one or two different faces for one or two million dollars less wouldn’t change anything.

 

[Oddbob]

I don't think the person you're replying to came across as "outraged" at all. And I think they bring up a great point about the bigger picture of why the team is so bad today.

It's been a cascade of poor choices, some larger than others, but even the small ones indicative of the decision making that creates a bottom five team that also has carried a high salary.

We are bad today because we were good for so long! No team can be good or even decent forever. There are literally no examples of a franchise being in the hunt and great forever. Not necessarily you Bench, but so many on here bellyaching about how bad we are. Please, this is only are 3rd season of being at the bottom of the standings, and we have pieces in place already that are moving us back up, and we didn't firesale our team to get those pieces. I wouldn't trade anything that Holland has done if it takes even one of our Cups away or all the other great seasons we got to see.

After being great for 20+ seasons, we were mediocre for 2-3 years and now bad for 3 years, that isn't that big a deal. People need to relax, and remember the many many good seasons we got to witness. Even the Hawks, they Won 3 Cups, but they were only good/great for 10 years, and are already sliding down, LA won 2 Cups and were only great for what 5 seasons, maybe a few more, and PIT, with two of the top centers the game has seen have only been near the top for 10-11 seasons, and are now slowly starting to fade as Crosby and Malkin slow down. We had a great run, and now we are paying for the great runs.

People complaining about the youngsters we lost, trying to win, and even when we lost, at least we were making moves to try and win, and I take that everyday over hoping my team loses games and has nothing to play for, other than the hope we get a high pick in a year where there are good players coming from that pick.

 

[abbbaron]

Holy**** is this entire post dedicated to discrediting Ken Holland's trade of Tatar for a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd?

KH patiently waited it out and won the trade. Nothing else to be said, really. All the other stuff is moot.

Lol@ Ken Holland selling Tatar too low, WTF! Seriously? Joe Veleno says hi!

Lol, Tomas Tatar waives back. So how much do you want to wager that Veleno (or any of those draft picks) becomes more productive than Tatar over the course of their respective careers?

 

[kliq]

Lol, Tomas Tatar waives back. So how much do you want to wager that Veleno (or any of those draft picks) becomes more productive than Tatar over the course of their respective careers?

Not really relevant....all that matter is if the players drafted are better then Tatar when this team becomes competitive again. I think most would rather have veleno over Tatar when he reaches the NHL in a couple years. What is your point? Are you saying the Tatar trade was a bad one?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Now, we a re bellyaching over losing a 6th liner? Unreal! It is time to let go of the rage for bad contracts, as Ken Holland has been making the right moves the past 3 seasons, and Tomas Nosek is as much a nothing burger as ever there was! The cap keeps going up, and the bad deals are getting shorter each year, so eventhough Abdelkader sucks, he will be gone soon enough, and as early as this next season he won't be of any affect on our salary cap.

Sorry. I can't get rid of my rage for bad contracts yet. It has 4 more years left on the deal and a NTC.

 

[abbbaron]

Not really relevant....all that matter is if the players drafted are better then Tatar when this team becomes competitive again. I think most would rather have veleno over Tatar when he reaches the NHL in a couple years. What is your point? Are you saying the Tatar trade was a bad one?

Irrelevant, right, because the team's competitiveness in no way depends on its individual players.
My point was pretty simple: opportunity cost

 

[Ingvar]

This **** isn't happening from the people you're replying to. And it makes engaging in a conversation about smaller roster moves and the larger influence they bring a total chore that always has to be prefaced with "Hi! Can I talk about areas this hockey team could improve in small ways without immediately being told I'm an overreacting complainer?"

You’re being disingenuous. If OP wanted to have a conversation about a small roster move he would start by providing arguments in favor of his position. IMO the best argument in favor of protecting Nosek was by Winger98 stating that we could expose more bad contracts by protecting lesser guys but I think the list by tsweeney shows that it wouldn’t help (and I don’t agree that losing Dekeyser makes this team better). Most of the other “pro-Nosek” posts (including yours) is just whining.

 

[kliq]

Irrelevant, right, because the team's competitiveness in no way depends on its individual players.
My point was pretty simple: opportunity cost

If your point is "opportunity cost" that means you are saying that we lost potential improvement by not keeping Tatar and going in a different direction (ie. acquiring picks).

Poor point, we are not in "win now" mode and are re-building. Criticize the Tatar trade all you want, I dont think anybody without bias will agree with you there. The only people who will criticize that trade are either hardcore Tatar fans, or people who refuse to give Holland credit for anything, I assume you are the ladder based on your rant on the first page.