Sportsnet: Stellick - How the Leafs traded their way to success

[Mindrust]

"Success" seems like the wrong word to use here. I think we have better pieces than we did previous years but the team hasn't done anything yet to be deemed successful.

I think they mean success when compared to the likes of rebuild teams like the Oilers.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Yeahhh, I wouldn't have minded the leafs doing an actual rebuild... as in getting a few first round picks for players that weren't seen as part of our core instead of losing them to UFA or wasting buy outs on them.

And while Kessel's doing great and improving year after year (stats as well as compete level) I'd still take Sequin + Hamilton over him every day of the week. I'd take Seguin alone over Kessel. I realize how massively unpopular that statement is, but time will tell. Take a minute to compare stats, age, off the puck game, and of course position before trashing me.

Should have started when JFJ was in charge and Sundin was getting long in the tooth. Our gateway to futility began then IMHO.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Still a middle of the pack team, with bloated pay roll and no game changers in the system. Where are players needed to take this team to the next level.

Did it ever occur to you that they might already be here? I think all but one of LA's self drafted players were 5 to 9 years post draft before they won. I bet a couple years prior you never would have pegged them to become what they did.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Nonis did all the work on the Phaneuf deal and the Gardiner/Lupul deal, per Burke

and apparently, i've heard the JVR deal. Nonis put it in place, and Burke did the Okaying.

 

[HeroNtF]

I still think he can become a 20 goal scorer. He has all the tools, just needs to piece it all together.. good chance he may never get it together at the nhl level though.

Happy with the bernier and bolland trades this summer. We have done well in trade, free agency is our devil.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

And while Kessel's doing great and improving year after year (stats as well as compete level) I'd still take Sequin + Hamilton over him every day of the week. I'd take Seguin alone over Kessel. I realize how massively unpopular that statement is, but time will tell. Take a minute to compare stats, age, off the puck game, and of course position before trashing me.

Sure. By the exact same points in their careers, this is how they match up:

Kessel

273 GP 87 G 80 A 167 PTS

Seguin

254 GP 79 G 93 A 172 PTS

This of course includes a season of Kessel playing with cancer. Where the men have separated from the boys so far to that point in their careers was when money was on the line:

Kessel

15 GP 9 G 6 A 15 PTS

Seguin

42 GP 6 G 12 A 18 PTS

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

and apparently, i've heard the JVR deal. Nonis put it in place, and Burke did the Okaying.

Burke said this about the Franson/Lombardi deal as well, even if at this point it sometimes looks like Lebda might be an upgrade on Franson.

 

[Lobstertainment]

It's fun to look at our lineup in terms of who brought it which players.

JVR - Bozak - Kessel = Burke - Burke - Burke
Lupul - Kadri - Clarkson = Burke - Burke - Nonis
Raymond - Bolland - Kulemin = Nonis - Nonis - JFJ
Holland - McClement - Orr - McLaren = Nonis - Burke - Burke - Burke

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson = Burke - JFJ
Gleason - Franson = Nonis - Burke
Rielly - Gardiner = Burke - Burke
Fraser - Ranger = Burke - Nonis (well, Burke for his Marlies stint)

Bernier = Nonis
Reimer = JFJ

McLaren was Nonis, we picked him up on waivers early last season and Burke was fired just before camp opened.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Nonis did all the work on the Phaneuf deal and the Gardiner/Lupul deal, per Burke

Of course he said that. Burke is a great guy who loves to stand by his team. We will never know exactly how much each individual person did on each deal, but it really doesn't matter, because like all trades on all teams, the management team all discuss the possibilities as a group. And like it or not, the final decision was always up to Burke.

I'm sure there are management personnel around the league that do the grunt work for GMs, but we never see those GMs being discredited. (perhaps it's because Burke is most loyal and complimentary to his management team) This is simply a method that people who disliked Burke use to diminish the brilliant work he did here, much like people did with his cup win.

There are even people saying that simply re-signing a player makes Nonis entirely creditable for Burke's work. Lunacy.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Still a middle of the pack team, with bloated pay roll and no game changers in the system. Where are players needed to take this team to the next level.

They are currently the 4th best team in the Eastern conference, and there are actually 6 players on the team with consistent game-changing abilities (with the potential for 2 more in Gardiner and Rielly), which is more than most teams in the league. Their cap situation is also perfectly fine, with no burdening retirement contracts.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Of course he said that. Burke is a great guy who loves to stand by his team. We will never know exactly how much each individual person did on each deal, but it really doesn't matter, because like all trades on all teams, the management team all discuss the possibilities as a group. And like it or not, the final decision was always up to Burke.

I'm sure there are management personnel around the league that do the grunt work for GMs, but we never see those GMs being discredited. (perhaps it's because Burke is most loyal and complimentary to his management team) This is simply a method that people who disliked Burke use to diminish the brilliant work he did here, much like people did with his cup win.

There are even people saying that simply re-signing a player makes Nonis entirely creditable for Burke's work. Lunacy.

I don't know - maybe it's my English Literature degree at work here, but there's a big difference in saying

"so and so was a part of the process" vs
So and so pretty much did all the work."

And considering Burke is a lawyer too - no matter how bombastic he is, he doesn't fling words out there casually.

Nonis - did not do the Kessel trade - he even flat out said if it were up to him - he would have kept the picks. [when he was asked]. this was Burke.

but if the Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Franson, JVR trade was mostly orcrastrated by Nonis, and then Burke just did his "yeah, i'm the GM, I okay this." - and then come out and says "Nonis does most of it, I okayed it." it makes me believe that Nonis did the work.

 

[ShortSideFlick]

Sure. By the exact same points in their careers, this is how they match up:

Kessel

273 GP 87 G 80 A 167 PTS

Seguin

254 GP 79 G 93 A 172 PTS

This of course includes a season of Kessel playing with cancer. Where the men have separated from the boys so far to that point in their careers was when money was on the line:

Kessel

15 GP 9 G 6 A 15 PTS

Seguin

42 GP 6 G 12 A 18 PTS

Come on man, you're reducing to a 15 game sample size to support Kessel? really? Not to downplay the cancer thing, but if you are playing that game, Seguin is a natural centre who was forced to play wing until this year.

Fact is Seguin is a 21 year old 1st line centre going ppg, Kessel is a 26 year old 1st line winger going ppg. At 21 Seguin is already equal to Kessel at 26, while playing a far more important position. Like the rest of the league, he's also infinitely better in puck battles than Kessel. Then factor in Hamilton.

... Kessel's no slouch, but I take a 21 year old centre who puts up the same points and is much more rounded over Kessel and it's really not a difficult decision. Kessel's been showing his worth, but this "tipping the scales" and "cause to reevaluate" the deal the media has been spouting is nonsense. Kessel's VERY good, but it was still a terrible trade, not to mention that it veered the team away from a rebuild when we needed it most.

 

[rdawg1234]

Come on man, you're reducing to a 15 game sample size to support Kessel? really? Not to downplay the cancer thing, but if you are playing that game, Seguin is a natural centre who was forced to play wing until this year.

Fact is Seguin is a 21 year old 1st line centre going ppg, Kessel is a 26 year old 1st line winger going ppg. At 21 Seguin is already equal to Kessel at 26, while playing a far more important position. Like the rest of the league, he's also infinitely better in puck battles than Kessel. Then factor in Hamilton.

Seguin seems to score in bunches though, as Kessel tends to continue to score consistently(minus the small drought which was a team drought).

Nothing has shown me as Seguin being a better player than Kessel, he may become one, and yes he matured faster, but I still like Kessel over Seguin as of this moment, but it's damn close

 

[ConnorTO]

but it was still a terrible trade

no it wasn't

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

I don't know - maybe it's my English Literature degree at work here, but there's a big difference in saying

"so and so was a part of the process" vs
So and so pretty much did all the work."

And considering Burke is a lawyer too - no matter how bombastic he is, he doesn't fling words out there casually.

Nonis - did not do the Kessel trade - he even flat out said if it were up to him - he would have kept the picks. [when he was asked]. this was Burke.

but if the Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Franson, JVR trade was mostly orcrastrated by Nonis, and then Burke just did his "yeah, i'm the GM, I okay this." - and then come out and says "Nonis does most of it, I okayed it." it makes me believe that Nonis did the work.

Yes, and there are also many times in life when people don't use the literal meaning of words, or they use hyperbole to try and help a friend and colleague look better, especially when they are loyal to the core, and that individual is looking for a job in the field.

But again, it doesn't matter, because Burke was the GM. It doesn't matter if Nonis did the grunt work, or brought it to attention, because these things are discussed as a group and Burke is the one that makes the deal. What, was the rival GM NOT going to seek out offers from Toronto if Nonis weren't there? Was this decision that was mutually agreed upon by management not going to be agreed to unless Nonis was the one making the call?

This is not a situation unique to Toronto. Burke is just the type of person to give that kind of credit where most don't. That should not diminish the work that Burke did here, just like it doesn't diminish the work of all the other GMs.

 

[cup67]

insert nonis next to burke, nonis was there with him making trades. lots of imput from nonis

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lol i remember all the people saying Frattin will be a 30-40 goal scorer, what a joke.

The last memory I have of Frattin in a Leafs jersey is him missing the net on a breakway in the 3rd period of Game 7 vs Boston. At the time the score was 4-2 Toronto and his breakaway happened with under 5:00 minutes left, so if he's able to score there is no way the Leafs don't lose that game.

 

[dimi78]

I don't know - maybe it's my English Literature degree at work here, but there's a big difference in saying

"so and so was a part of the process" vs
So and so pretty much did all the work."

And considering Burke is a lawyer too - no matter how bombastic he is, he doesn't fling words out there casually.

Nonis - did not do the Kessel trade - he even flat out said if it were up to him - he would have kept the picks. [when he was asked]. this was Burke.

but if the Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Franson, JVR trade was mostly orcrastrated by Nonis, and then Burke just did his "yeah, i'm the GM, I okay this." - and then come out and says "Nonis does most of it, I okayed it." it makes me believe that Nonis did the work.

Burke runs a management team that is no different around the NHL where assistants work the phones etc... GM's delicate work to assistants but it's the head GM who makes the final call... That Burke gives them credit for the work they put in speaks to his character as a man cause he's not the lone GM in the NHL that delicates work to assistants... What do people think assistant GM's do? Sit there to bounce ideas off as consultants that' it? There jobs is to aliviate as much of the work off the GM as possible. Claude Loiselle (SP) negotiates all contracts, Poulin runs the Marlies & player development Fletcher is a senior advisor and all 3 have contacts working the phones across the league doing ground work that eventually gets to Nonis where he will make the final call.

 

[DD03]

People are forgetting Kessel didn't NEED to score at the clip Seguin is scoring at in order to win. He played on the Bruins. Just like Seguin did. These guys didn't need to score like the elite guys they are. You guys are nitpicking.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Nonis did all the work on the Phaneuf deal and the Gardiner/Lupul deal, per Burke

So sick and tired of hearing this. Did Nonis play a big part in the Phaneuf deal, yes, but he hardly did all the work. It was Burke who made the calls throughout the season inquiring about Phaneuf, he was the one that got Sutter into talking about a deal. When Burke gives out the credit he does, it's just Burke being Burke. He won't exclude anyone for their contributions, but at the same time probably gives them more credit then they deserve.

And what in the world would Nonis have to do with Lupul/Gardiner? Both were previous Burke players. Burke had previously dealt and traded for Joffery before and he drafted Jake Gardiner. Probably the biggest misconception that irks me.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Of course he said that. Burke is a great guy who loves to stand by his team. We will never know exactly how much each individual person did on each deal, but it really doesn't matter, because like all trades on all teams, the management team all discuss the possibilities as a group. And like it or not, the final decision was always up to Burke.

I'm sure there are management personnel around the league that do the grunt work for GMs, but we never see those GMs being discredited. (perhaps it's because Burke is most loyal and complimentary to his management team) This is simply a method that people who disliked Burke use to diminish the brilliant work he did here, much like people did with his cup win.

There are even people saying that simply re-signing a player makes Nonis entirely creditable for Burke's work. Lunacy.

Thank You! At least someone else gets it. Good post.

 

[The Blue Devil]

I don't know - maybe it's my English Literature degree at work here, but there's a big difference in saying

"so and so was a part of the process" vs
So and so pretty much did all the work."

And considering Burke is a lawyer too - no matter how bombastic he is, he doesn't fling words out there casually.

Nonis - did not do the Kessel trade - he even flat out said if it were up to him - he would have kept the picks. [when he was asked]. this was Burke.

but if the Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Franson, JVR trade was mostly orcrastrated by Nonis, and then Burke just did his "yeah, i'm the GM, I okay this." - and then come out and says "Nonis does most of it, I okayed it." it makes me believe that Nonis did the work.

Please tell me why Nonis would have an impact on Burke's former team with a Gm that Burke himself trained in Anaheim, with players that Burke had aquired/traded/drafted before?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Come on man, you're reducing to a 15 game sample size to support Kessel? really? Not to downplay the cancer thing, but if you are playing that game, Seguin is a natural centre who was forced to play wing until this year.

Not really sure what you are talking about? The poster said to compare their stats by age. That's precisely what I did. Kessel's playoff production obliterates Seguin's. Are you surprised that his PPG playoff production continued later? I'm not sure why you would consider having cancer a "game" so much as a "fact"? Are you aware that Phil is (and was) a centre playing wing?

Fact is Seguin is a 21 year old 1st line centre going ppg, Kessel is a 26 year old 1st line winger going ppg. At 21 Seguin is already equal to Kessel at 26, while playing a far more important position. Like the rest of the league, he's also infinitely better in puck battles than Kessel. Then factor in Hamilton.

Actually the "fact" is that at the exact same ages, their regular season performances were near identical while their playoff performances vastly differed. The other "fact" is that you are trying to play a 21 vs 26 game to imply that it must logically follow that by the time Seguin is 26 he'll be like an OMG 200 point player. Many people tried to play that game after Seguin's good season, suggesting how much better he'd be than Kessel by the same age he was traded yet how did THAT pan out for them? You'll get no argument from me on the Hamilton bit. I said from day one that Seguin vs Kessel would be a wash and the difference would come down to what the other 1st does. Remains to be seen.

... Kessel's no slouch, but I take a 21 year old centre who puts up the same points and is much more rounded over Kessel and it's really not a difficult decision. Kessel's been showing his worth, but this "tipping the scales" and "cause to reevaluate" the deal the media has been spouting is nonsense. Kessel's VERY good, but it was still a terrible trade, not to mention that it veered the team away from a rebuild when we needed it most.

That's your prerogative. The last time a player of Phil's stature became available at such an age was Mats Sundin. These opportunities rarely present themselves. I'd rather have a GM with the balls to swing than one who watches pitches go by. Anyone who says "everyone knew how low they'd finish" is full of crap and living revisionist history. The team has been rebuilt, just not Oilers style. In 5 years they added 13 first rounders. Many high picks, many young and many performing pretty well.

 

[seanlinden]

I have to agree with the article... and one thing that I think far too many people don't realize -- is that going with the traditional drafting and development of a new core just isn't realistic in Toronto.

The fans and media have no patience for it, and simply aren't willing to accept that young players will often drag a team downwards. Toronto just isn't a place like LA or Chicago where the team can sit in mediocrity below the spotlight, while a couple of high draft picks develop into future stars.

When a high draft pick enters the Leaf lineup, expectations are ridiculous for them... and they're just not equipped ho handle the pressure.

Heck, if you look at any draft pick in recent memory of ours, when they were traded, they were traded for very little.... a pretty solid indication that other teams didn't think that much of them either.

Realistically... the best Toronto has developed a draftee in the last 15 years are Nikolai Kulemin, Nazem Kadri, Carl Gunnarsson, and James Reimer.

None of these are star players. None of these are guys you can really build a good team around. Guys like Luke Schenn, Alexander Steen, Carlo Colaiacovo, Jiri Tlusty... their play began to decline the longer they stayed in Toronto. I think it's highly unrealistic to expect that Tyler Seguin would've become the player he is today, had he been drafted a Leaf.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I have to agree with the article... and one thing that I think far too many people don't realize -- is that going with the traditional drafting and development of a new core just isn't realistic in Toronto.

The fans and media have no patience for it, and simply aren't willing to accept that young players will often drag a team downwards. Toronto just isn't a place like LA or Chicago where the team can sit in mediocrity below the spotlight, while a couple of high draft picks develop into future stars.

When a high draft pick enters the Leaf lineup, expectations are ridiculous for them... and they're just not equipped ho handle the pressure.

Heck, if you look at any draft pick in recent memory of ours, when they were traded, they were traded for very little.... a pretty solid indication that other teams didn't think that much of them either.

Realistically... the best Toronto has developed a draftee in the last 15 years are Nikolai Kulemin, Nazem Kadri, Carl Gunnarsson, and James Reimer.

None of these are star players. None of these are guys you can really build a good team around. Guys like Luke Schenn, Alexander Steen, Carlo Colaiacovo, Jiri Tlusty... their play began to decline the longer they stayed in Toronto. I think it's highly unrealistic to expect that Tyler Seguin would've become the player he is today, had he been drafted a Leaf.

well if you stop and think about it we are still in the middle of a rebuild,(we traded a good chunk of our core, but there are still some very young pieces, who may/may not work) and people freak out about them now.

i didn't even realise that the MARLIES are the youngest AHL team. that one blew my lid a bit