News Article: (State your case) McDavid vs. Mario Lemieux

[Gurglesons]

If I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible this is how I'd break down the whole Sid vs Ovi thing:

1) Ovechkin had an insane early peak, but it only lasted five years or so. During that peak, he was a better player than Crosby except for 06-7.

2) Crosby has for the most part been the better player ever since.

3) Crosby's peak year in 2010-11 may have turned out better than anything Ovechkin has ever done, but we'll never know because of Dave Steckel

4) Crosby has been the better playoff performer. Yes he's had Malkin, but Ovechkin has had some ridiculously good teams as well, and the Pens have more often found a way to have success in the playoffs

5) If we go by PPG, Crosby certainly has a significant edge on Ovechkin there. Crosby would be something in the range of 100-200 points ahead of Ovechkin but for injuries

6) Injuries do matter to some. If we consider health to be something other than luck then that's a point in Ovechkin's favor. Certainly a lot of Sid's injuries have been of the freak accident variety (Steckel one was seemingly accidentally, high ankle sprain, etc)

7) Putting it all together, I don't see how you put Ovechkin ahead of Sid unless all you value Ovechkin's early career peak that highly. But imo Crosby's peak would have rivaled that 5 year period but for the injury luck.

As for McDavid, if he can win some cups and a smythe or two, he'll surpass both.

Because Ovechkin is the best goaltender of all time. He's the best at something. He did something no player has done. He's won everything Sid has won including the Calder which he did not and he is going to be in the record books.

McDavid will likely win a Cup. And also didn't have a 5-6 run as a hindrance to his own team and just mooching PP goals as Ovechkin did in the early-mid 2010s. Which is why Crosby > Ovechkin

Ovechkin was never a hindrance to his own team. It's hilarious that you and others are acting like this forum is being biased towards McDavid, but then say things like this about Ovechkin.

Ovechkin had the same exact issues as McDavid. Bad team management, bad team structure, and bad coaching.

 

[Pancakes]

Because Ovechkin is the best goaltender of all time. He's the best at something. He did something no player has done. He's won everything Sid has won including the Calder which he did not and he is going to be in the record books.

The goal record is definitely a point in Ovechkin's favor, but for me, if you ask me which player to take if I'm building a team from scratch, it's Sid. If it's a one game playoff, it's Sid. I can't envision any scenario in which I'd take Ovechkin over Crosby.

I might take McDavid over both. He's stupidly good.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I wasn't challenging this take specifically, but rather the prevailing sentiment HFPens seems to have about McDavid.


Can you tell me with a straight face that if McDavid had demanded out of Edmonton after his ELC that he wouldn't have taken flak for it? My post was challenging Ugene Magic's position that we should hold it against McDavid that he stayed in Edmonton.

I whole heartedly agree that McDavid is an idiot for staying in Edmonton. He clearly wants to win, but it's an up hill battle in Edmonton.
At the same time, 1 player can only do so much. It's a team game. Chris Kunitz isn't magically better than McDavid because he has 4 Stanley Cups.

 

[Pancakes]

I whole heartedly agree that McDavid is an idiot for staying in Edmonton. He clearly wants to win, but it's an up hill battle in Edmonton.
At the same time, 1 player can only do so much. It's a team game. Chris Kunitz isn't magically better than McDavid because he has 4 Stanley Cups.

No but I think when you've got guys who both have good teams and one has more success than the other, that matters a lot to me.

The Caps won so many division titles during Ovechkin's career, and yet Sid has outperformed him in the playoffs. Cups have a big team element to them but when guys are both on elite teams and one outperforms the other....give me that guy.

McDavid has not yet had the quality of teams that Sid or Ovie has, so I cut him a bit more slack. But Mcdavid does need to win cups at some point to be in the conversation with the other two. Fair or not, he just has to do it.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Because Ovechkin is the best goaltender of all time. He's the best at something. He did something no player has done. He's won everything Sid has won including the Calder which he did not and he is going to be in the record books.



Ovechkin was never a hindrance to his own team. It's hilarious that you and others are acting like this forum is being biased towards McDavid, but then say things like this about Ovechkin.

Ovechkin had the same exact issues as McDavid. Bad team management, bad team structure, and bad coaching.

McDavid now is better than mid-career Ovechkin to an astronomical degree. Ovechkin's career was terrifying dominance in the beginning (where I agree, he was better than either of our guys) chasing history and getting a cup at the end, and a whole lot of mediocre in the middle. I dock Ovechkin pretty significantly for his mid career malaise because he wasn't even 30 yet.

 

[Gurglesons]

McDavid now is better than mid-career Ovechkin to an astronomical degree. Ovechkin's career was terrifying dominance in the beginning (where I agree, he was better than either of our guys) chasing history and getting a cup at the end, and a whole lot of mediocre in the middle. I dock Ovechkin pretty significantly for his mid career malaise because he wasn't even 30 yet.

Ovi won a Pearson at 24 and Ovechkin won a hart trophy at 27. Following the 27 year old season he won three straight Richards and finished 2nd in Hart voting at 29.. You're knocking Ovechkin for two bad seasons when he was coached by a guy who never returned to the NHL?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ovi won a Pearson at 24 and Ovechkin won a hart trophy at 27. Following the 27 year old season he won three straight Richards and finished 2nd in Hart voting at 29.. You're knocking Ovechkin for two bad seasons when he was coached by a guy who never returned to the NHL?

Every season that a supposed GOAT ends up below a PPG or as a minus counts against him.

Besides, this is just your side point that "if you think McDavid is so good you must think Ovy > Crosby to be consistent." I reject that, and I also reject the implied transitive property in the statement. If McDavid wins a Cup, finishes with 2000 points in this era and wins a bunch of Harts he is right there with the Big 3.

 

[Gurglesons]

Every season that a supposed GOAT ends up below a PPG or as a minus counts against him.

Besides, this is just your side point that "if you think McDavid is so good you must think Ovy > Crosby to be consistent." I reject that, and I also reject the implied transitive property in the statement. If McDavid wins a Cup, finishes with 2000 points in this era and wins a bunch of Harts he is right there with the Big 3.

McDavid has been a minus as many times as Ovechkin was at 26.

Ovie was under a PPG one season at 26 and it was because of a moronic coach.

 

[ChaosAgent]

McDavid has been a minus as many times as Ovechkin was at 26.

Ovie was under a PPG one season at 26 and it was because of a moronic coach.

He has been about at PPG half his career. McDavid is at 1.5 PPG for his career and even better in the last 4 years. He is also +93 in his career. Unless he falls off, this isn't close.

And besides, I reject the premise that Ovechkin matters.

 

[Gurglesons]

He has been about at PPG half his career. McDavid is at 1.5 PPG for his career and even better in the last 4 years. He is also +93 in his career. Unless he falls off, this isn't close.

And besides, I reject the premise that Ovechkin matters.

So you have no argument and are just trolling. Got it.

Usual DocEmrickShits.

 

[ChaosAgent]

So you have no argument and are just trolling. Got it.

Usual DocEmrickShits.

Edit edit

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Ovi won a Pearson at 24 and Ovechkin won a hart trophy at 27. Following the 27 year old season he won three straight Richards and finished 2nd in Hart voting at 29.. You're knocking Ovechkin for two bad seasons when he was coached by a guy who never returned to the NHL?

If we're going to play the what if game, then Crosby has Ovi by a country mile:

-You're knocking Crosby for getting misdiagnosed by his own medical team?
-You're knocking Crosby for getting a puck in the mouth?
-You're knocking Crosby for having idiot coaches in Eddie O, Byslma, Johnstone, etc?

I mean we can go on like this and Sid has had way more adversity vs Ovi

 

[Gurglesons]

If we're going to play the what if game, then Crosby has Ovi by a country mile:

-You're knocking Crosby for getting misdiagnosed by his own medical team?
-You're knocking Crosby for getting a puck in the mouth?
-You're knocking Crosby for having idiot coaches in Eddie O, Byslma, Johnstone, etc?

I mean we can go on like this and Sid has had way more adversity vs Ovi

I think Sid was a better player than Ovi. But a lot of that is because I value championships as a defining moment for players. Which is why I'm not impressed and do not have Jagr or McDavid above Sid.

Ovi has a better regular season resume than Sid. It's frankly indisputable.

You can blame that on injury, but reality is that Ovi just has accomplished much more in the regular season than Sid and so has McDavid.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ovechkin having a better regular season record than Sid is actually very disputable.
But if you have a narrow mind about it, disputing that is called "trolling."

 

[Gurglesons]

Ovechkin having a better regular season record than Sid is actually very disputable.
But if you have a narrow mind about it, disputing that is called "trolling."

How?

Ovechkin
9x Richards
1x Calder
3x Hart
3x Pearson
1x Ross

Crosby
2x Richards
2x Hart
2x Pearson
2x Ross

 

[ChaosAgent]

How?

Ovechkin
9x Richards
1x Calder
3x Hart
3x Pearson
1x Ross

Crosby
2x Richards
2x Hart
2x Pearson
2x Ross

Because Crosby was the better player most seasons they played in the league.

Just because he missed 10-20 games here or there and this disqualified himself for awards based on counting stats doesn't make it not true. His team made the playoffs every year so it's not like his absences were costly, aside from 2011.

Thankfully, McDavid is both a player at the level of peak Crosby/Ovechkin (maybe better) and hasn't had injury issues.

Thank you for omitting your usual ad hominems. I thought I was going to have to file a ticket, but I ain't a snitch.

In the grand scheme of a career no one gives a crap about the Calder also. Malkin's rookie year wasn't better than Crosby's.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because Crosby was the better player most seasons they played in the league.

Just because he missed 10-20 games here or there and this disqualified himself for awards based on counting stats doesn't make it not true. His team made the playoffs every year so it's not like his absences were costly, aside from 2011.

Thankfully, McDavid is both a player at the level of peak Crosby/Ovechkin (maybe better) and hasn't had injury issues.

Thank you for omitting your usual ad hominems. I thought I was going to have to file a ticket, but I ain't a snitch.

In the grand scheme of a career no one gives a crap about the Calder also. Malkin's rookie year wasn't better than Crosby's.

Yes he has.

Yes they do.

Ovechkin has won everything Crosby did in the regular season aside from an additional ross and doubled him up on most of the stuff.

If you're going purely by regular season stats, Ovie crushes Sid. He's a goalscorer and you're giving him a minus for it because your biased.

It's also easy to argue Ovie has been the better player since around 18-19.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yes he has.

Yes they do.

Ovechkin has won everything Crosby did in the regular season aside from an additional ross and doubled him up on most of the stuff.

If you're going purely by regular season stats, Ovie crushes Sid. He's a goalscorer and you're giving him a minus for it because your biased.

It's also easy to argue Ovie has been the better player since around 18-19.

How about points per game? How much does Ovechkin crush Crosby on that?

You're overly dependent on Ovechkin playing 82 games aside from 60-70 games which is why Sid's hardware doesn't stack up. But ultimately it didn't matter to making the playoffs, which is the objective of the regular season.

But that's also because you're working backward from a POV that winning makes an all time greats even total resume, and that is why Sid >>Ovy. It's fine that you feel that way but I don't think that totality of Ovechkin's resume actually beats Sid's.

So if Ovechkin scored on MAF in 2009 he'd be better than Sid? So if the Penguins never got Kessel Sid's career would be materially diminished? So Gretzky is 2x Lemieux because he has the Cupz? There is way too much going on in hockey to make Cups the decider.
But it doesn't matter because when McDavid wins one that little trump card you've mentally constructed goes poof regardless.

 

[Gurglesons]

How about points per game? How much does Ovechkin crush Crosby on that?

You're overly dependent on Ovechkin playing 82 games aside from 60-70 games which is why Sid's hardware doesn't stack up. But ultimately it didn't matter to making the playoffs, which is the objective of the regular season.

But that's also because you're working backward from a POV that winning makes an all time greats even total resume, and that is why Sid >>Ovy. It's fine that you feel that way but I don't think that totality of Ovechkin's resume actually beats Sid's.

So if Ovechkin scored on MAF in 2009 he'd be better than Sid? So if the Penguins never got Kessel Sid's career would be materially diminished? So Gretzky is 2x Lemieux because he has the Cupz? There is way too much going on in hockey to make Cups the decider.
But it doesn't matter because when McDavid wins one that little trump card you've mentally constructed goes poof regardless.

Cups aren't the decider. Sid is a much better playoff performer than Ovechkin. He has two Smythes and a two other Smythe runs that Malkin edged him out in and they lost the cup in.

I'm not working backwards from anything. Ovechkin is a goalscorer and has been dominant in the regular season.

You're making an argument I'm not making.

Sid is a better player than Ovechkin in my opinion. But if you are saying McDavid is at the same level as Sid and Ovi or above then regular season is what matters in your eyes. And Ovechkin has been more dominant in the regular season. Your just giving Sid more props because of assists.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Cups aren't the decider. Sid is a much better playoff performer than Ovechkin. He has two Smythes and a two other Smythe runs that Malkin edged him out in and they lost the cup in.

I'm not working backwards from anything. Ovechkin is a goalscorer and has been dominant in the regular season.

You're making an argument I'm not making.

Sid is a better player than Ovechkin in my opinion. But if you are saying McDavid is at the same level as Sid and Ovi or above then regular season is what matters in your eyes. And Ovechkin has been more dominant in the regular season. Your just giving Sid more props because of assists.

Most people said they would take Crosby over Ovechkin for years. It would be very dumb to sumy have that opinion because Max Talbot scored 2 goals in a Game 7 or Canadian teams won Olympics they were supposed to win in 2010 and 2014. He was considered the better and more impactful player on the ice. He just didn't have the regular season individual hardware because he missed games every year.

Ovechkin was great in the playoffs too. The Penguins team was better.

Regardless, McDavid is as good as peak Crosby-Ovechkin (maybe better).

 

[BobCole]

I guess that depends on how you define top five players.

If it is trophies and regular season success, I laugh at any Penguins fan taking Sid over Ovi.



I think its annoying to hear about how McDavid is doing things we haven't seen in the league since Mario.

It simply isn't true. I would say the same thing to someone that would say that about Sid.

Sid, Malkin and Ovi dominated their league just as much as McDavid. They just had to compete with each other which spread out the individual success.

McDavid realistically is playing in one of the weaker eras of forwards and goaltending.

McDavid's counterparts are MacKinnon who has never won anything or really done anything of note individually, Matthews who is primarily a goalscorer talent, but nowhere near the all around force Ovechkin was and his team mate Drai. You can throw Kucherov in that pile, but Kuch is 4 years older than McDavid.

The league is in an era right now where points are coming like butter and McDavid is capitalizing on it, but it's not like he's doing anything that has never been seen. Right now he's in that Jagr realm of being the best player in the league on a team designed to make him the best player in the league. If that results in a cup, I'll start giving him his flowers.

He's won 4 of the last 6 Art Ross trophies

 

[Gurglesons]

He's won 4 of the last 6 Art Ross trophies

I’m aware. Good on him. Jagr did the same thing. I don’t have him as a top ten player.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Rocket Richard is the GOAT of NHL players moving pianos, and I think that's under-appreciated by this narrow historical focus.

Also, nobody wants to start a riot when McDavid gets a game misconduct either.

 

[Pens1566]

Meh, they both suck in comparison to Artie from the early '90s ...


/s

 

[HandshakeLine]

Meh, they both suck in comparison to Artie from the early '90s ...


/s

I see you’re familiar with my work.