News Article: (State your case) McDavid vs. Mario Lemieux

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Well said, but even "all-time great(s)" has a pecking order or levels to that greatness. That's just the way it is.

For me, I am comfortable with tiers. And not using arbitrary numbers for cutoffs.

For example, and this is just an example - I don't want to start picking apart the for-instance conversation starter - but I can recall a discussion like "After Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe/Orr who's the other in the top 5?" I would argue why does there have to be a top 5? If those are your top tier, then it's four. And the guys you're debating about as the possible fifth are actually the next tier of guys, however-many there are.

But further, so much of the pecking order as you call it is subjective. That's what makes the conversations fun, maybe, but I don't think there's a definitive "way it is" in every instance.

 

[Ugene Magic]

For me, I am comfortable with tiers. And not using arbitrary numbers for cutoffs.

For example, and this is just an example - I don't want to start picking apart the for-instance conversation starter - but I can recall a discussion like "After Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe/Orr who's the other in the top 5?" I would argue why does there have to be a top 5? If those are your top tier, then it's four. And the guys you're debating about as the possible fifth are actually the next tier of guys, however-many there are.

But further, so much of the pecking order as you call it is subjective. That's what makes the conversations fun, maybe, but I don't think there's a definitive "way it is" in every instance.

I think there's a 5th, but there's no such talk about the goalies. Forwards and defenseman are present, maybe that's what is missing?

Who's the best goalie of all-time?

I'd have a hard time choosing just one and it would between Sawchuk and Brodeur for me. Hasek's right there.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think there's a 5th, but there's no such talk about the goalies. Forwards and defenseman are present, maybe that's what is missing?

Who's the best goalie of all-time?

I'd have a hard time choosing just one and it would between Sawchuk and Brodeur for me. Hasek's right there.

The good news is we don't have to choose just one. Just like we don't have to stop at five.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Who's the best goalie of all-time?

Hasek easily for me. 6 Vezinas. WAY better career reg season stats than Roy and Brodeur, and even better stats in the playoffs.
Vast majority of his career spent on bad to average teams.

If we're talking about best playoff goalies, then Brodeur is for sure up there, yeah. But if we're looking at everything then he's not close to the Dominator. Different tier.

Hasek is a career .922. Brodeur is a career .912. That is a gigantic gap when talking about huge sample sizes. I dunno how this can be swept under the rug.
If Brodeur was European and Hasek was North American, that would make it a landslide for people IMO.
I remember what media was like for Brodeur growing up in Canada. It was all him, all the time. Roy too. Hasek was just a third wheel that got brought up once in a while. North Americans have unavoidable heavy bias on this topic. Plus all those fond playoff memories, with Roy and Brodeur going deeper because they were on better teams.

 

[BobCole]

I'm not exactly sure of your reaction to my post ----

I didn't really discuss any of those things you mentioned -- McDavid plays fine in the playoffs?

I'm saying you could stick McDavid out with two sticks and he would score his points because his game is extremely self-reliant.

Mario could do that as well, better than McDavid, but Mario had a higher hockey IQ and wasn't as reliant on any specific portion of his offensive game to get points. He had the speed, explosiveness, hands, head, awareness, etc...

McDavid reminds me of so much of Pavel Bure, the pure explosiveness AND the ability of his hands to keep up with his feet which makes him unstoppable. I said it will be curious to see what he does as he ages. Crosby is still producing despite a lack of explosiveness and foot speed because he is so damn intelligent.

The only thing I think McDavid and Bure share is speed. Bure almost never tallied more assists than goals in a single season, a la OV. McDavid on the other hand has literally 2x more assists than he has goals. In other words, Bure was a pure goal scorer but not a setup guy. McDavid has 100x the vision/hockey IQ than Bure had. McDavid scores goals almost incidentally because he is just so skilled, a la Crosby.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's because these discussions begin with a faulty premise -- that there is a clear and objective way to determine or measure things like "which guy was better" or "who's in your top 5/10/20/whatever".

Exactly. As I mentioned up thread it's like asking who was the better musician: Mozart or Miles Davis. Just completely unanswerable questions that most people find ridiculous in other fields but some how real serious discussion questions here.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Just ran some quick numbers on NST.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

Over the last 3 years, when McDavid is on the ice Edmonton's 5-on-5 GF% is 56%. When he's not on the ice Edmonton's 5-on-5 GF% is 45%. 11% difference.

Crosby with the Penguins is 56.5% on ice GF%. Without Crosby the Penguins are 53%. 3.5% Difference.

Ovechkin, another favorite in this thread, is 53% on ice and the Caps are 54% without him. Shocker, absolute shocker, that he has a -1% difference.

Just for additional fun, I grabbed Victor Hedman who (I think?) is considered 1 or 1A of the game's best defenseman with Makar. 57% with him and 55% without him. 2% difference.

I then grabbed Makar. 63% with and 55% without. 8% difference. Close(ish) to McDavid.


I don't know what romanticized notion of elevating linemates and interview quotes from DVD commentaries would say about this - both of those things don't exist much anymore. But a team that scores 56% of the time with a player on the ice and 45% without him...that's a remarkable impact.

Though Crosby's injury-riddled peak was actually more absurd.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

 

[edog37]

And Mario improved Robbie Brown?

Robbie Brown...nothing. Warren Young got a $1 million contract from Detroit by playing on Lemieux's line during 66's rookie year.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Hasek easily for me. 6 Vezinas. WAY better career reg season stats than Roy and Brodeur, and even better stats in the playoffs.
Vast majority of his career spent on bad to average teams.

If we're talking about best playoff goalies, then Brodeur is for sure up there, yeah. But if we're looking at everything then he's not close to the Dominator. Different tier.

Hasek is a career .922. Brodeur is a career .912. That is a gigantic gap when talking about huge sample sizes. I dunno how this can be swept under the rug.
If Brodeur was European and Hasek was North American, that would make it a landslide for people IMO.
I remember what media was like for Brodeur growing up in Canada. It was all him, all the time. Roy too. Hasek was just a third wheel that got brought up once in a while. North Americans have unavoidable heavy bias on this topic. Plus all those fond playoff memories, with Roy and Brodeur going deeper because they were on better teams.

To me it's Hasek and then everyone else. Similar to Tom Brady- it's him and then a bunch of other guys in a tier below him.

For such a team-dependent position, Hasek had by far the worst team around him. Name the Sabres' best Dman during his time with them? Richard Smehlik probably. Goal support? Basically the post concussion Lafointaine and Mogilny during his tenure.

Compare that to Broduer who had Scott Stevens and Niedermeyer in their primes (plus a NZ trap). Roy had Chelios in Mtl and then Foote in Colorado.

If you swap Hasek for Broduer/Roy's teams, Hasek probably has at least 2 more Cups to his name.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

To me it's Hasek and then everyone else. Similar to Tom Brady- it's him and then a bunch of other guys in a tier below him.

For such a team-dependent position, Hasek had by far the worst team around him. Name the Sabres' best Dman during his time with them? Richard Smehlik probably. Goal support? Basically the post concussion Lafointaine and Mogilny during his tenure.

Compare that to Broduer who had Scott Stevens and Niedermeyer in their primes (plus a NZ trap). Roy had Chelios in Mtl and then Foote in Colorado.

If you swap Hasek for Broduer/Roy's teams, Hasek probably has at least 2 more Cups to his name.

Yeah and because Buffalo defended worse as a team, that means they had a higher percentage of high danger chances against. That makes his stat dominance over Roy and Brodeur even more glaring.
There's difficult GOAT questions in sports. This one isn't even up for debate, really.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Hasek easily for me. 6 Vezinas. WAY better career reg season stats than Roy and Brodeur, and even better stats in the playoffs.
Vast majority of his career spent on bad to average teams.

If we're talking about best playoff goalies, then Brodeur is for sure up there, yeah. But if we're looking at everything then he's not close to the Dominator. Different tier.

Hasek is a career .922. Brodeur is a career .912. That is a gigantic gap when talking about huge sample sizes. I dunno how this can be swept under the rug.
If Brodeur was European and Hasek was North American, that would make it a landslide for people IMO.
I remember what media was like for Brodeur growing up in Canada. It was all him, all the time. Roy too. Hasek was just a third wheel that got brought up once in a while. North Americans have unavoidable heavy bias on this topic. Plus all those fond playoff memories, with Roy and Brodeur going deeper because they were on better teams.

To me it's Hasek and then everyone else. Similar to Tom Brady- it's him and then a bunch of other guys in a tier below him.

For such a team-dependent position, Hasek had by far the worst team around him. Name the Sabres' best Dman during his time with them? Richard Smehlik probably. Goal support? Basically the post concussion Lafointaine and Mogilny during his tenure.

Compare that to Broduer who had Scott Stevens and Niedermeyer in their primes (plus a NZ trap). Roy had Chelios in Mtl and then Foote in Colorado.

If you swap Hasek for Broduer/Roy's teams, Hasek probably has at least 2 more Cups to his name.

Yeah and because Buffalo defended worse as a team, that means they had a higher percentage of high danger chances against. That makes his stat dominance over Roy and Brodeur even more glaring.
There's difficult GOAT questions in sports. This one isn't even up for debate, really.

Then you guys don't skim the stats enough. In Brodeur's case, also defensive team. Brodeur played more games (70+ GP for over a decade) had much better numbers when you don't consider smaller sample sizes in the playoffs. Better team doesn't take away Brodeur still had 3 GAA/SA/SV%>>> of 1.61 - 537 - .927/ 1.65 - 622 - .934/ 1.67 - 463 - .927.

Brodeur made things look easy because he wasn't solely a drop stay deep in your net, in the butterfly, flop around goaltender. He made saves look easy because he challenged shots more standing up and out, butterfly when needed, occasionally flopped and was probably the best puck handling goalie which also helped out his defense. Brodeur had changed the game. vvvv-Below-vvvvv


"The Brodeur Rule
After the 2004–05 lockout and before the start of the 2005–06 season, the league instituted a new rule preventing goaltenders from playing the puck behind the goal line, except within a trapezoid-shaped zone located behind the net."


Did Hasek change the game?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Then you guys don't skim the stats enough. In Brodeur's case, also defensive team. Brodeur played more games (70+ GP for over a decade) had much better numbers when you don't consider smaller sample sizes in the playoffs. Better team doesn't take away Brodeur still had 3 GAA/SA/SV%>>> of 1.61 - 537 - .927/ 1.65 - 622 - .934/ 1.67 - 463 - .927.

I just said that the playoff vs playoff debate is close...
Brodeur is a .919 playoff goalie over 205 games on good teams. Hasek is a .925 career playoff goalie in 119 games on mostly bad/average teams.

There's something to be said about the larger sample size and the difficulty of maintaining a high standard over a longer period of time. Even so, why should Brodeur get the clear edge here for anyone? Based off what? Playing more games because his teams were more equipped to do so? That makes no sense.

But the original topic was goalie vs goalie as a whole, regular season and playoffs. If we factor in regular season, there's nothing left to argue. Hasek kills him.

 

[Pens1566]

I deduct a bit from Brodeur due to how defensive the Devils played. It definitely helped him out a bit.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Hasek had everything. Easily the best goaltender I've ever watched play. And even if it doesn't count for the sake of statistics... EXTREMELY fun to watch. Hell he was one of those goaltenders that you ALMOST didn't mind losing to because he was so damned entertaining in net. And out of his net.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Hasek had everything. Easily the best goaltender I've ever watched play. And even if it doesn't count for the sake of statistics... EXTREMELY fun to watch. Hell he was one of those goaltenders that you ALMOST didn't mind losing to because he was so damned entertaining in net. And out of his net.

Speaking of entertaining lol

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The only "goaltender out for an adventure" moment that beats Hasek's antics was when Roy deked Gretzky and carried the puck past center red lol

 

[Ugene Magic]

 

[Al Smith]

Robbie Brown...nothing. Warren Young got a $1 million contract from Detroit by playing on Lemieux's line during 66's rookie year.

LOL. Scorin' Warren Young. Mario turned hacks like Terry Ruskowski into scorers just by telling them where to put their stick on the ice. Robbie Brown had the hands, if he could just get there with his god-awful skating.

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Man, how do I not remember this?

 

[edog37]

LOL. Scorin' Warren Young. Mario turned hacks like Terry Ruskowski into scorers just by telling them where to put their stick on the ice. Robbie Brown had the hands, if he could just get there with his god-awful skating.

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

oh man, I forgot about Rosco. Yeah, he was another one too. You could even put Dan Quinn in there as well. Lemieux just made so many average guys so much better. Without question.....GOAT

 

[Pens1566]

Andy Hilbert with Sid ...

 

[lastcupever75]

This idea that Mario benefitted from the lack of talent around the league compared to todays game baffles me.

Teams had actual checking lines to go against top lines from other teams. They wouldn’t care about generating offensive chances, their only concern would be trying to limit Mario and his line.
Does anyone remember the rangers putting out Jan Erixon to shadow lemieux? I think there were some other teams that tried it as well but my memory fails me.

He went up against sone of best players in the game. Hall of famers like stevens, leetch, Howe, langway, bourque and would make them look like average players.
All they could do (at times) was try to hold on to Mario. An easy penalty in todays game

Don’t forget the goalies like Roy, Hasek, richter etc
Who in todays game is comparable to these guys I’ve listed?

Look at the Canada cup. Against the best the world had to offer, Mario dominates and scores 11 goals in 9 games. 18 points n 9 games

Mario accomplished all this while having to keep his head on a swivel for an incoming cheap shot. Teams always finished their checks on him. That was part of their game plan against 66.

What he could do with the amount of space he would have on the ice today would be scary

 

[Gurglesons]

This idea that Mario benefitted from the lack of talent around the league compared to todays game baffles me.

Teams had actual checking lines to go against top lines from other teams. They wouldn’t care about generating offensive chances, their only concern would be trying to limit Mario and his line.
Does anyone remember the rangers putting out Jan Erixon to shadow lemieux? I think there were some other teams that tried it as well but my memory fails me.

He went up against sone of best players in the game. Hall of famers like stevens, leetch, Howe, langway, bourque and would make them look like average players.
All they could do (at times) was try to hold on to Mario. An easy penalty in todays game

Don’t forget the goalies like Roy, Hasek, richter etc
Who in todays game is comparable to these guys I’ve listed?

Look at the Canada cup. Against the best the world had to offer, Mario dominates and scores 11 goals in 9 games. 18 points n 9 games

Mario accomplished all this while having to keep his head on a swivel for an incoming cheap shot. Teams always finished their checks on him. That was part of their game plan against 66.

What he could do with the amount of space he would have on the ice today would be scary

Not to mention he got none of the protection Wayne did because he was a big boy who should handle it himself.