Stastny/ROR: Either, Neither, or Both?

[Colorado Avalanche]

Problem is Stastny is on decline or at least has been for couple of years, ROR is rising. Also we would have to pay more money to Stastny long-term because he will one of the best UFAs available next summer. Easy ROR for me, If we can sign him longterm.

 

[Kale Makar]

What I think is get them both to move to the wing somehow. Because when you have 3 (soon to be 4 with MacK) 1st or 2nd line centers, it just doesn't work. and since Duchene is the best and soon to be MacK, the best thing to do is have both Stas and Radar on the wing. I mean, I want to keep them, but if we do need to move one it won't be the worst thing ever. But who leaves I think depends on this season because by the end of it we should know who our top 2 centers should be, and I don't think it is fair to Stas or Radar to put them on the 3rd line because they are not 3rd liners.


But that's just my two cents...

 

[cgf]

Since the whole time he's been here. And I said preferably two.

Not sure why you disagree he needs skilled linemates, and then say he needs someone who's a good finisher. That's a skilled linemate. So is Stewart who's only problem is work ethic and consistency. So is PAP with Duchene.

You're making my point and disagreeing at the same time.

I mis read where you wrote top two skilled wingers as two top skilled wingers, which I had issue with since I don't think Staz needs two guys to put up 65+ points again, just one guy who'll crash the net and can finish. Which is also why I thought the skilled winger but was a little tricky as Staz does need guys who can finish, but he doesn't need very skilled on the puck guys like Parenteau, Tanguay , Mueller or flash, but rather more simple finishers like stewie, Davey jones before the knee injury not giving of ****s, or McGinn before he decided he liked the sound of hitting the post more than he liked scoring goals. That's why I think Staz can be a good compliment to MacK and Dutchy, even though he needs a quality partner, the kind guys he's best with are different than the kind of partner Dutchy and MacK need.

 

[Foppa2118]

I mis read where you wrote top two skilled wingers as two top skilled wingers, which I had issue with since I don't think Staz needs two guys to put up 65+ points again, just one guy who'll crash the net and can finish. Which is also why I thought the skilled winger but was a little tricky as Staz does need guys who can finish, but he doesn't need very skilled on the puck guys like Parenteau, Tanguay , Mueller or flash, but rather more simple finishers like stewie, Davey jones before the knee injury not giving of ****s, or McGinn before he decided he liked the sound of hitting the post more than he liked scoring goals. That's why I think Staz can be a good compliment to MacK and Dutchy, even though he needs a quality partner, the kind guys he's best with are different than the kind of partner Dutchy and MacK need.

I see, I thought it sounded like we agreed more than disagreed on the issue.

I think you're right that he needs different types of talented wingers than Duchene. PAP works best with Duchene, while Staz needs a sniper of some sort, and if that sniper or the other winger can crash the net, that's the best pairing for him.

The problem is MacKinnon is in the mix now, and he will be relied upon to play a big part in the franchise's success, and I just don't see how they are gonna split up all the talented wingers between all three.

They just really need to edge closer to a more traditional top two scoring lines, while the 3rd plays a bit of a different style. This doesn't mean O'Reilly's 3rd line has to be a traditional 3rd line, but it will play a different style than a traditional top scoring line the way a Stastny line would. He can play with less talented players, and he can have success with them, leaving the top offensive guys to play with Nate and Matt.

The top three center approach sounds good in theory, but I don't think we've ever seen evidence of it working the way it would have to work with offensive centers like Duchene, MacKinnon, and Stsatny. The closest it's been was in Pittsburgh, and that was because Staal played a role like O'Reilly would, not like Stastny would. It also didn't hurt that Crosby and Malkin are the two best players in the world.

With Duchene, MacKinnon, and Stastny long term up the middle it would water down their talents and abilities. Sure one could say they can still have success if they all accept playing a lesser role, and having less ice time, and putting up less points, but I just don't think that's the best way to build a perennial Stanley Cup contender, and that has to be what you're building toward.

IMO the best approach to building a team is having your top players be your go to guys. If they get hurt during a playoff run, or during a season, and you suffer depth wise, then so be it. It wasn't meant to be. But when they're on, they're on, and they're leading the club playing the "offensive role" while other guys like O'Reilly are playing a secondary role and rounding out the lineup playing other roles, and having success playing a different style when the top guys get shut down playing a more talent based offensive style.

With both Staz and Dutchy being fairly picky with the type of linemates they have success with, and a brand new 1st overall franchise center in MacKinnon, I just don't see it working long term. At least one or two will be struggling, and at best they'll accept playing a more defensive role while they're not scoring. That might seem reasonable for a guy like Staz to do, but what if it's MacKinnon or Duchene. They're just not the type of players to be successful doing anything but playing a scoring role. That's why they need to be leaned on to do so, while they leave a guy like O'Reilly, or even another 3rd line center to play that role while O'Reilly stays on the wing, or is traded himself.

Plus when a guy like Duchene or MacKinnon is struggling and not scoring like we've seen in the past with Duchene, it's just not good for the team. It becomes a distraction no matter how much they say it's not, and it leads to trade rumors, and just not a very successful mindset and atmosphere around the team.

Before the problem was are the guys they have good enough to carry a team with a top two line approach. After Duchene's year last year, and drafting a guy like MacKInnon first overall, I think they have to just go all in with them as the go to offensive guys. They're at the point in their rebuild where they are done evaluating what they have, and need to make adjustments on the fly.

To me the problem is not so much O'Reilly or Stastny. It's can they make it work with Duchene, MacKinnon and Stastny? I don't think they can, and they need to adjust how they're building their cup contending team. As much as I'm optimistic about him behind the bench, Patrick Roy can't fix everything with passion.

 

[cgf]

Well I believe in building your lines off of partnerships and slotting in the best fit into the third spot rather than the most talented guys. Before we added MacK I wanted those partnerships we built our lines off of to be PAP-Duchene, Radar-Landy, Staz and ...

With Mack now in the mix that changes things. Somebody's gunna have to move to the wing to make it work and who that is is still up in the air.

Luckily I think the guys that do great next to Duchene will also do great next to MacK, so we have some adaptability there. And whether it's Staz or radar that gets to stay at center, I think Landeskog will fit better on that line than he will on a Duchene or MacKinnon line, meaning we could still have a great partner for each of our centers:

Duchene - Parenteau
Radar/Staz - Landeskog
MacKinnon - Radar/Staz

With those partnerships to build our lines around in the future, I don't think keeping the depth to legitimately roll 3 lines like the sharks or kings do would be too unreasonable. Especially since we already have Downie, Tanguay and McGinn already in the NHL and Sgar and Hishon in Lake Erie.

And who knows what'll happen when these guys actually skate together, maybe radar and Duchene gel so well that we can give MacK Parenteau once he's settled in, maybe Tanguay looks even better than pap looks next to Duchene, when he plays with MacKinnon so we wouldn't even have to put radar or Staz on his wing to give him a great partner, maybe Sgar becomes the player I think he will this year and just becomes a beast next to MacKinnon and Downie to give us the most infuriating line built around feeding a 40 goal center in the nhl, etc.

If the defensive prospects grow well we won't need to make a big trade to compete with our d, and if we can resign our forwards we have the pieces to set everyone up to thrive without needing to bring anyone in, I'd like to see the team give that a go if they can resign everyone while the kids on d develop and give us a better idea of just what we need to be contenders. Then if we have to shake things up in like 3 years from now, when Mack's starting to enter his prime, the other kids are already there and we know what we have on d.

 

[Foppa2118]

Well I believe in building your lines off of partnerships and slotting in the best fit into the third spot rather than the most talented guys. Before we added MacK I wanted those partnerships we built our lines off of to be PAP-Duchene, Radar-Landy, Staz and ...

With Mack now in the mix that changes things. Somebody's gunna have to move to the wing to make it work and who that is is still up in the air.

Luckily I think the guys that do great next to Duchene will also do great next to MacK, so we have some adaptability there. And whether it's Staz or radar that gets to stay at center, I think Landeskog will fit better on that line than he will on a Duchene or MacKinnon line, meaning we could still have a great partner for each of our centers:

Duchene - Parenteau
Radar/Staz - Landeskog
MacKinnon - Radar/Staz

With those partnerships to build our lines around in the future, I don't think keeping the depth to legitimately roll 3 lines like the sharks or kings do would be too unreasonable. Especially since we already have Downie, Tanguay and McGinn already in the NHL and Sgar and Hishon in Lake Erie.

And who knows what'll happen when these guys actually skate together, maybe radar and Duchene gel so well that we can give MacK Parenteau once he's settled in, maybe Tanguay looks even better than pap looks next to Duchene, when he plays with MacKinnon so we wouldn't even have to put radar or Staz on his wing to give him a great partner, maybe Sgar becomes the player I think he will this year and just becomes a beast next to MacKinnon and Downie to give us the most infuriating line built around feeding a 40 goal center in the nhl, etc.

If the defensive prospects grow well we won't need to make a big trade to compete with our d, and if we can resign our forwards we have the pieces to set everyone up to thrive without needing to bring anyone in, I'd like to see the team give that a go if they can resign everyone while the kids on d develop and give us a better idea of just what we need to be contenders. Then if we have to shake things up in like 3 years from now, when Mack's starting to enter his prime, the other kids are already there and we know what we have on d.

That's the issue right there. The "..." And now instead of O'Reilly who can play a more grinding two way game, you have a highly talented skill player in MacKinnon.

Also, only SJ uses a 3 center approach, and they shift Pavelski to the wing a lot. They've also proven year in and year out that they don't know how to build a competative team, and don't have enough grit and role players on their 3rd line.

LA uses Stoll on the 3rd line mostly. One of Carter or Richards played wing most of the time.

It's a matter of opinion, and I respect yours, I just think the 3 scoring line approach is a bit of a fantasy. It just doesn't work the same way some highly skilled European or Russian players don't work out, or the fact NHL teams have never been able to win putting together All Star teams. There's too many other elements and roles needed to be played besides offense, that your 4th line doesn't play enough minutes to fill.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That's the issue right there. The "..." And now instead of O'Reilly who can play a more grinding two way game, you have a highly talented skill player in MacKinnon.

Also, only SJ uses a 3 center approach, and they shift Pavelski to the wing a lot. They've also proven year in and year out that they don't know how to build a competative team, and don't have enough grit and role players on their 3rd line.

LA uses Stoll on the 3rd line mostly. One of Carter or Richards played wing most of the time.

It's a matter of opinion, and I respect yours, I just think the 3 scoring line approach is a bit of a fantasy. It just doesn't work the same way some highly skilled European or Russian players don't work out, or the fact NHL teams have never been able to win putting together All Star teams. There's too many other elements and roles needed to be played besides offense, that your 4th line doesn't play enough minutes to fill.

I think the Sharks team has definitely been competitive.

Problem has been that it hasn't been winning team.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think the Sharks team has definitely been competitive.

Problem has been that it hasn't been winning team.

Well I guess that's more or less what I meant. They have a lot of skill, but that doesn't win you the cup by itself. Even in terms of offense you need players who play a different style of offensive game than traditional creative offensive players like Duchene, MacKinnon and Stastny, so they can manufacture goals when the checking gets tight.

That's where a guy like O'Reilly becomes extra important. He may not have the offensive ceiling of a guy like Stastny, but you don't need him to when you have Duchene and MacKinnon. You need a guy in that role who's not devoid of talent and can manufacture points when the highly skilled players get shut down.

And that's just in terms of offense not even the defensive side, or the turnovers, and disrupting nature of his game that's so effective at shutting down the skill players on the other teams in the playoffs. They need what O'Reilly brings, or a 3rd center closer to that mold than another skilled center like Stastny.

PL thought the new rules after the first lockout would usher back the old offensive days where you could win by outscoring everyone but as we see every year that still doesn't win you championships. That ended 30 years ago.

 

[not a troll]

That's the issue right there. The "..." And now instead of O'Reilly who can play a more grinding two way game, you have a highly talented skill player in MacKinnon.

Also, only SJ uses a 3 center approach, and they shift Pavelski to the wing a lot. They've also proven year in and year out that they don't know how to build a competative team, and don't have enough grit and role players on their 3rd line.

LA uses Stoll on the 3rd line mostly. One of Carter or Richards played wing most of the time.

It's a matter of opinion, and I respect yours, I just think the 3 scoring line approach is a bit of a fantasy. It just doesn't work the same way some highly skilled European or Russian players don't work out, or the fact NHL teams have never been able to win putting together All Star teams. There's too many other elements and roles needed to be played besides offense, that your 4th line doesn't play enough minutes to fill.

The 3 scoring line approach hasn't been seen often because teams don't have the fortune of 3 excellent centers to build on. The Avalanche has 4.

San Jose shifts Pavelski to wing when a top 6 winger is injured and for the past 2 seasons that has been Havlat. They would prefer to keep Pavelski on the third line which is why they traded for and extended Torres to fill in on top 6 wing duty when necessary so Pavelski doesn't have to. Also, the Torres-Pavelski-Galiardi (now Kennedy) line has more than enough grit. I am not a Sharks fan by any means but you're severely underrating them.

Carter is the winger for LA and fills in at C when Richards is hurt which is what I'm hoping the O'Reilly/Duchene combination can do as well.

I believe you're forgetting for a few years Pittsburgh was running Crosby, Malkin, and Staal down the middle with considerable success. We might be able to do the same especially during MacKinnon's entry level years. We can afford to pay extra to hang onto to one or both of O'Reilly and Stastny.

 

[henchman21]

Even in terms of offense you need players who play a different style of offensive game than traditional creative offensive players like Duchene, MacKinnon and Stastny, so they can manufacture goals when the checking gets tight.

I don't really disagree with your post overall, I just have to say that Duchene, MacKinnon, and Stastny are 3 different styles of centers. Duchene is a more on the rush highly skilled and dynamic center. Stastny is a center that works best on the cycle and feeding the puck into the slot where a bigger physical forward can finish. MacKinnon is a little bit of both with a lot more grit to his game, he will be more physical than Duchene, Stastny, and ROR.

Stopping all 3 of MacKinnon, Duchene, and Stastny lines is going to be a hell of a task for any team. Especially if MacKinnon adjusts to the NHL quickly.

 

[Foppa2118]

The 3 scoring line approach hasn't been seen often because teams don't have the fortune of 3 excellent centers to build on. The Avalanche has 4.

San Jose shifts Pavelski to wing when a top 6 winger is injured and for the past 2 seasons that has been Havlat. They would prefer to keep Pavelski on the third line which is why they traded for and extended Torres to fill in on top 6 wing duty when necessary so Pavelski doesn't have to. Also, the Torres-Pavelski-Galiardi (now Kennedy) line has more than enough grit. I am not a Sharks fan by any means but you're severely underrating them.

Carter is the winger for LA and fills in at C when Richards is hurt which is what I'm hoping the O'Reilly/Duchene combination can do as well.

I believe you're forgetting for a few years Pittsburgh was running Crosby, Malkin, and Staal down the middle with considerable success. We might be able to do the same especially during MacKinnon's entry level years. We can afford to pay extra to hang onto to one or both of O'Reilly and Stastny.

I don't think I'm underrating the Sharks at all. The proof is in the pudding, they haven't been able to break through in the playoffs, and have underperformed every year for almost a decade now. IMO it's because they haven't built their team the right way. We'll see if they can turn that around this year.

As I mentioned Carter and Richards both spent time on the wing, and Stoll is mostly their 3rd line center, especially in the playoffs. They have went with a top heavy traditional approach, including their cup year.

I think you missed my original post in regard to Pittsburgh, but I mentioned they are the only team to really have success with three top centers. This is because Staal played a role like O'Reilly would, not like Stastny would. Stastny isn't going to be a keep it simple two way forward. He's good defensively, but he likes to play a give and go game. This is how he played when he's had his most success and has said this is how he has to play to have success. He mentioned this again as the reason why he had success in the WC this year, being that he played this style.

Also like I mentioned it didn't hurt that Pitt had the two best players in the world ahead of Staal.

The Avs can probably afford to keep both O'Reilly and Stastny in MacKinnon's entry years since the cap will be going up next year, but the cap space is only a minor part of it IMO. Duchene and Stastny will have success, especially early on this year because MacKinnon will be playing on the defacto 3rd line with Downie and McGinn and being played in a lesser role to take pressure off him. Since they are facing a decision on their long term future in terms of re-signing Stastny and O'Reilly, it would be stupid for them to keep their 1st overall pick in this role for more than a year at most.

That's where the problem of everyone contributing at a fantasy 3 center pace will occur, and frustration will creep back in to the games of Duchene and Stastny. After seeing this problem off and on with Duchene especially, they have to avoid this at all cost.

The most obvious way to do this is to lean on him and MacKinnon as their offensive guns for the future, cut ties with Stastny, and play O'Reilly or someone else in a true lesser role. They can pay O'Reilly $5M+ to do this since they can afford it, or they can keep him at wing and look for another option from within, via trade or UFA next year.

I don't really disagree with your post overall, I just have to say that Duchene, MacKinnon, and Stastny are 3 different styles of centers. Duchene is a more on the rush highly skilled and dynamic center. Stastny is a center that works best on the cycle and feeding the puck into the slot where a bigger physical forward can finish. MacKinnon is a little bit of both with a lot more grit to his game, he will be more physical than Duchene, Stastny, and ROR.

Stopping all 3 of MacKinnon, Duchene, and Stastny lines is going to be a hell of a task for any team. Especially if MacKinnon adjusts to the NHL quickly.

They play different styles, though I think Duchene and MacKinnon are pretty similar considering you're never going to see two players play exactly the same. Nate just has more power to his game, while Duchene is more tricky.

Trying to stop all three sounds good on paper because the assumption is all three will be playing well. We've seen the last three years that it's very difficult to find a good mix of wingers for the three center approach, especially when Stastny and Duchene are pretty picky. They've never all been clicking, and one or two have always been struggling to an extent. We've really only seen MacKinnon the last couple years in junior, so it's still a question mark how picky he will be with his linemates in the NHL.

When one or two of those guys aren't as comfortable as they should be, and aren't scoring with confidence like they should be because they don't have the right wingers, or because they're not being leaned on with big minutes the way most skill players need, it won't be as tough to shut them down as you think.

 

[cgf]

I just see a forward core as deep as ours as kinda unprecedented in the cap era which comes from our biggest stars getting locked up on deals that make us able to afford the depth for each to flourish.

How do you stop all 3 of
O'Reilly-Duchene-Parenteau
Sgarbossa-MacKinnon-Downie
McGinn-Stastny-Landeskog?

What team has had 3 well rounded top lines like that? With the way the cap has lowered the salary the top end guys get and boosted the salaries of good depth we can afford more exceptional depth if Staz and ROR sign for around 5.5ish.

And if our defense doesn't develop well enough for us to contend we can then make a move 2-3 years down the road, when Duchene is still just 25 and MacK still can't have a beer after home games.

It's something unprecedented that we should be in no hurry to break up if we don't have to while our kids develop.

 

[Foppa2118]

I just see a forward core as deep as ours as kinda unprecedented in the cap era which comes from our biggest stars getting locked up on deals that make us able to afford the depth for each to flourish.

How do you stop all 3 of
O'Reilly-Duchene-Parenteau
Sgarbossa-MacKinnon-Downie
McGinn-Stastny-Landeskog?

What team has had 3 well rounded top lines like that? With the way the cap has lowered the salary the top end guys get and boosted the salaries of good depth we can afford more exceptional depth if Staz and ROR sign for around 5.5ish.

And if our defense doesn't develop well enough for us to contend we can then make a move 2-3 years down the road, when Duchene is still just 25 and MacK still can't have a beer after home games.

It's something unprecedented that we should be in no hurry to break up if we don't have to while our kids develop.

This is the looks good on paper idea.

I can see that Stastny line struggling actually. Not talented enough wingers, or puck carriers to help out Stastny or play a give and go game. Then you're relying on Duchene's line and a young MacKinnon to bail you out.

Some form of this situation has played out each season for the last four years. Mack needs better linemates than Sgabossa and Downie too.

Scoring players not playing big roles on teams because they've spread everyone out is a very tough thing to implement successfully on a team.

It could work out like some of you think, and if it does it would be awesome, but I just don't think it will.

 

[cgf]

Staz has been at his best with exactly wingers like Landy and McGinn, guys who'll crash the next and finish cause despite his love the ping of the posts, McG was near a 20 goal pace last year and hit 20 the year before, with Landy on the other side Staz will have more than enough fire power to be very effective.

For the MacKinnon line you may be right, I just see and Downie and MacK making great partners and I'm very high on Sgar. I see that as one the most frustrating to pay against and chippiest scoring lines in the NHL and MacK could still put up 40 goals with those two's playmaking.

But if it doesn't work locking up Staz and radar long term doesn't lock us into having thin lines. We can always try out your plan with
Landeskog/McG - Duchene - Parenteau
Stastny - MacKinnon - Downie
McGinn/Landy - O'Reilly - Sgarbossa

Or we can load up our top 6 when we have to with:
O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau
Stastny - MacKinnon - Landeskog
McGinn - Sgarbossa - Downie.

Or even more extreme
MacKinnon - Duchene - Parenteau
O'Reilly - Stastny - Landeskog
McGinn - Sgarbossa - Downie

But I think that over the course of a season that spreading it out would make us a stronger team. Only stack up our lineups when we aren't breaking through with the waves of well rounded lines approach, kinda how the Avs of Sakic's times would put Foppa next to him when we needed to score and spread out their talent most of the rest of the time.

And if our defensive prospects never develop well enough for that forward core to win a cup, then we make a trade a few years from now, when the kids are more established and we have added a few more 1st and 2nd round picks to the pipeline and have the assets to make a big trade and fill any gaps it creates.

 

[Foppa2118]

Staz has been at his best with exactly wingers like Landy and McGinn, guys who'll crash the next and finish cause despite his love the ping of the posts, McG was near a 20 goal pace last year and hit 20 the year before, with Landy on the other side Staz will have more than enough fire power to be very effective.

For the MacKinnon line you may be right, I just see and Downie and MacK making great partners and I'm very high on Sgar. I see that as one the most frustrating to pay against and chippiest scoring lines in the NHL and MacK could still put up 40 goals with those two's playmaking.

But if it doesn't work locking up Staz and radar long term doesn't lock us into having thin lines. We can always try out your plan with
Landeskog/McG - Duchene - Parenteau
Stastny - MacKinnon - Downie
McGinn/Landy - O'Reilly - Sgarbossa

Or we can load up our top 6 when we have to with:
O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau
Stastny - MacKinnon - Landeskog
McGinn - Sgarbossa - Downie.

Or even more extreme
MacKinnon - Duchene - Parenteau
O'Reilly - Stastny - Landeskog
McGinn - Sgarbossa - Downie

But I think that over the course of a season that spreading it out would make us a stronger team. Only stack up our lineups when we aren't breaking through with the waves of well rounded lines approach, kinda how the Avs of Sakic's times would put Foppa next to him when we needed to score and spread out their talent most of the rest of the time.

And if our defensive prospects never develop well enough for that forward core to win a cup, then we make a trade a few years from now, when the kids are more established and we have added a few more 1st and 2nd round picks to the pipeline and have the assets to make a big trade and fill any gaps it creates.

Staz has been at his best with one of a Landeskog/McGinn type, and one skill player. Not two players like Landeskog and McGinn that play more of a grinding game. They both have skill for sure, but they don't play a "skill game."

This is also what seperates Stastny from O'Reilly, and why I think ROR is a better fit. Stastny is a good defensive player, but he plays more of a skill based game. O'Reilly on the other hand has underrated skill like Landeskog, but like Landeskog approaches it more from a straight forward keep it simple two way style.

As far as lines guy, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say this is what I would like to see moving forward at some point. I think with Landeskog as captain, and with a big contract as a big time player he needs to play a top two line role. As good as he is with O'Reilly, I think it might be better to keep them separated. They can always be re-united at different times when line shuffling is called for.

Landeskog - Duchene - PAP
McGinn - MacKinnon - Tanguay
Hishon* - O'Reilly - Downie

I still believe Hishon has a bright future. I saw a lot of smarts still in his game watching a few LEM games last year. I think he will come out a success story. If not, he can be replaced with someone via trade/UFA/prospect. This 3rd line still has a lot of skill as O'Reilly and Downie have underrated skill and smarts, but both players can approach it from a more keep it simple style, and focus on defense and O'Reilly's neutral zone turnovers transitioning to offense.

If this line played in a top two "role" with those kinds of minutes, they'd probably put up a fair amount of points. However, under my theory that you have to lean on the top two lines for offense, and keep the 3rd in a lesser role for more specialized situations, they'll put up less points by default.

I think O'Reilly views himself as a top six forward, and with this Avs group they're still much more skilled with a three line approach than a lot of teams, they just don't have three "offensive lines." That's where I think the problem is, as it's a bit of a fantasy that what sounds good in theory doesn't work out in practice.

O'Reilly can get his big bucks, but he'll have to play in a role that best suits the "team." That's the tradeoff.

 

[cgf]

Staz has been at his best in recent years at the WC where he played with two more simple wingers, or when he played with stewie and jones. Staz has shown that in a worst case scenario were we use him in a more shut down role with lesser wingers he'll still put up 50+ points so even if we can't give him Landy or ROR on his wing he can still be effective.

I just want us too keep both right now and see how it plays out. We can always make the move down the road.

 

[Foppa2118]

Staz has been at his best in recent years at the WC where he played with two more simple wingers, or when he played with stewie and jones. Staz has shown that in a worst case scenario were we use him in a more shut down role with lesser wingers he'll still put up 50+ points so even if we can't give him Landy or ROR on his wing he can still be effective.

I just want us too keep both right now and see how it plays out. We can always make the move down the road.

I don't think they can though/will. Especially with Stastny. If he's re-signed as a pending UFA he's going to be here for the next few years at least, they're not going to trade him. Maybe they can re-sign O'Reilly as an RFA and then trade him in a year or so, but I don't see the point in that. They're kind of at a crossroads, and they need to make a decision on the direction they want to go.

Also, keeping both kind of limits how much they can tweak their forward group in the coming years.

Also, Staz was good with Stewie because he's a very talented player, not because he's a meat and potatoes kind of player. It just so happened he was a PF who crashed the net as well which was a bonus. The only spurts he was good with Jones was when Jones was "on" as a sniper. The rest of the time when he played a "simple game" and wasn't "on" as a sniper, they didn'd do well.

This is what Staz said as to his success after the WC.

"I got back to playing like I want to play, and not getting too caught up in what people want me to do, and just worry about what makes me successful. And that’s what happened.”

Stastny hopes to translate that to the Avs next season. “We play a different style there. More puck movement, little more offensive, guys jumping in the play with the give-and-go player that I am.”

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/201...usses-world-championship-scoring-spree/13719/

This is how Staz wants to play, and at the NHL level it needs one of a Landeskog/McGinn type, but if you have two that's not enough pure skill or offensive creativity to help Staz on give and go's. Landy's an underrated passer and has good vision, but his game revolves around protecting the puck, while McGinn is a work the corners kind of guy and a one touch sniper type. Neither are a give and go type. THey probably would work great at the WC with Staz like David Moss and Craig Smith (who has some pretty good vision himself) but not at the quicker passed NHL level.

 

[AslanRH]

I don't think they can though/will. Especially with Stastny. If he's re-signed as a pending UFA he's going to be here for the next few years at least, they're not going to trade him. Maybe they can re-sign O'Reilly as an RFA and then trade him in a year or so, but I don't see the point in that. They're kind of at a crossroads, and they need to make a decision on the direction they want to go.

Also, keeping both kind of limits how much they can tweak their forward group in the coming years.

Also, Staz was good with Stewie because he's a very talented player, not because he's a meat and potatoes kind of player. It just so happened he was a PF who crashed the net as well which was a bonus. The only spurts he was good with Jones was when Jones was "on" as a sniper. The rest of the time when he played a "simple game" and wasn't "on" as a sniper, they didn'd do well.

This is what Staz said as to his success after the WC.

"I got back to playing like I want to play, and not getting too caught up in what people want me to do, and just worry about what makes me successful. And that’s what happened.â€

Stastny hopes to translate that to the Avs next season. “We play a different style there. More puck movement, little more offensive, guys jumping in the play with the give-and-go player that I am.â€

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/201...usses-world-championship-scoring-spree/13719/

This is how Staz wants to play, and at the NHL level it needs one of a Landeskog/McGinn type, but if you have two that's not enough pure skill or offensive creativity to help Staz on give and go's. Landy's an underrated passer and has good vision, but his game revolves around protecting the puck, while McGinn is a work the corners kind of guy and a one touch sniper type. Neither are a give and go type. THey probably would work great at the WC with Staz like David Moss and Craig Smith (who has some pretty good vision himself) but not at the quicker passed NHL level.

Keeping Stastny through MacK's ELC seems to make a great deal of sense to me. Giving flexibility of moving both between C/LW or C/RW respectively. Will give time and insurance to see how quickly MacK adjusts to playing center effectively as a 2 way player.

Tanguay-Stastny-Landeskog seems to give you what you are speaking of with 2 skilled and creative playmakers along with a shooter and crasher in Lando. All 3 are good enough passers to play a give and go style and should be able to find open dmen for chances in the zone. I think they would be a good match with Hejda-Barrie.

 

[Foppa2118]

Keeping Stastny through MacK's ELC seems to make a great deal of sense to me. Giving flexibility of moving both between C/LW or C/RW respectively. Will give time and insurance to see how quickly MacK adjusts to playing center effectively as a 2 way player.

Tanguay-Stastny-Landeskog seems to give you what you are speaking of with 2 skilled and creative playmakers along with a shooter and crasher in Lando. All 3 are good enough passers to play a give and go style and should be able to find open dmen for chances in the zone. I think they would be a good match with Hejda-Barrie.

It does, that would probably be a good line. The problem is who does Mack play with? Does he continue to play with McGinn and Downie? I just don't see that as a smart way to use a 1st overall talent like MacKinnon.

It just goes back to my basic premise that I think they have to go back to a more top heavy approach, while the 3rd can play a more two way game and doesn't have to be picky with talented linemates. I don't think that ends up happening with Stastny. I think it works better with O'Reilly or another 3rd line center.

I also don't think continuing this idea of lets just keep everyone and see what happens is a good idea at this point in the rebuild. Shuffling around MacKinnon and Stastny and O'Reilly back and forth between wing and center is another idea that sounds good in theory but not in practice. I think they need stability. They shouldn't risk making the same mistake with MacKinnon that they did with Duchene early on.

The first few years of the rebuild were when they needed to be patient and see how everyone developed and how things settled. Year 5+ where they're at now they should be picking a direction to go with and going all in with it.

 

[cgf]

When I say down the road I mean at the deadline two seasons from now at the earliest. By then we'd be a season and a half into the extension and have gotten 2.5 seasons to see both the 3 scoring lines set up under Roy and the defensive kids develop.

If at that point our d is drastically short of the mark using Staz or radar, one of our kids on d, one of the prospects we'll have drafted in the interim or a pick, we could fix up our d and go to the more standard distribution of roles you are championing.

 

[Foppa2118]

When I say down the road I mean at the deadline two seasons from now at the earliest. By then we'd be a season and a half into the extension and have gotten 2.5 seasons to see both the 3 scoring lines set up under Roy and the defensive kids develop.

If at that point our d is drastically short of the mark using Staz or radar, one of our kids on d, one of the prospects we'll have drafted in the interim or a pick, we could fix up our d and go to the more standard distribution of roles you are championing.

Using one of them to fix the D is only a minor reason as to why I think they should move Stastny, but the main issues aside, they absolute need to fix the D before 2.5 years. In fact IMO they need to be making a move to add at least one legit (on any team) top four D this year. They can't keep waiting to fix their biggest weakness.

As far as the main issues I have with keeping the three offensive center approach, I don't think it makes sense to see how it develops in three years, because I personally don't think it will work out as hoped, so I don't think they should waste another 2-3 years waiting and seeing.

 

[cgf]

I don't see any need to hurry. We're gunna be a competitive team but we aren't winning the cup between now and then. I think anything short of a ridiculous steal, like Vlasic for ROR or something, and we'll still be a bubble team that misses the postseason this year, but sneaks in next year, after that would be where we make a move to be able to go further if we need to.

 

[Gumballhead]

I doubt I'm the first person to say this, but I'd like to see this team under Roy for 40 or 50 games before they start thinking of moving any of those guys. Unless there's a deal for a very good defenseman.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

3 great centers, it works to a point when one wants out, see Penguins. I guess we should keep 3 centers till we win cup.

 

[AslanRH]

It does, that would probably be a good line. The problem is who does Mack play with? Does he continue to play with McGinn and Downie? I just don't see that as a smart way to use a 1st overall talent like MacKinnon.

It just goes back to my basic premise that I think they have to go back to a more top heavy approach, while the 3rd can play a more two way game and doesn't have to be picky with talented linemates. I don't think that ends up happening with Stastny. I think it works better with O'Reilly or another 3rd line center.

I also don't think continuing this idea of lets just keep everyone and see what happens is a good idea at this point in the rebuild. Shuffling around MacKinnon and Stastny and O'Reilly back and forth between wing and center is another idea that sounds good in theory but not in practice. I think they need stability. They shouldn't risk making the same mistake with MacKinnon that they did with Duchene early on.

The first few years of the rebuild were when they needed to be patient and see how everyone developed and how things settled. Year 5+ where they're at now they should be picking a direction to go with and going all in with it.

The Avs have this season to see how pieces may fit. While I agree that stability is important, MacK, Stastny, and ROR will likely have to be shuffled to find that fit.

As for the future, the Avs still have time to find players to put around MacK be it Hishon/Sgar, FA, trade, or future draft picks. I could see a Stastny-MacK-Lando line being successful as MacK takes the 2C roll.

I don't think there is any certainty in what we have in Downie yet. His injuries + pending FA status is still an issue.

Heck, we could see Stastny and ROR traded for defense and winger help before all is said and done.

I hope nothing gets done before this team gets 30+ games under its belt, unless it is a clear upgrade to the defense or a sure win in value.