Post-Game Talk: Stars 4, Pens 1 - The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same

[Boocock]

I want to believe that but I dunno..

15 years ago = 2000, not 1990.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Daren Puppa

 

[Al Smith]

There's also the insurance factor. If you can't prove that a reduction is size provides the same level of protection, then your insurance premiums are going to go up as it becomes more likely that goalies get hurt.

In my opinion, they could certainly afford to shade a few inches off the the side of the chest/arm protectors and pants. I'm just not sure that it's going to make that significant of a difference because of how physically large so many goalies are today. I mean, look at the size of some of these guys...

• Robin Lehner, BUF - 6'5", 240lbs
• Scott Darling, CHI - 6'6", 232lbs
• Anders Nilsson, EDM - 6'5", 229lbs
• Thomas Greiss, NYI - 6'1", 228lbs
• Andrew Hammond, OTT - 6'1", 220lbs
• Frederik Andersen, ANA - 6'4", 220lbs (he's slimmed down; IIRC he was listed at 245lbs last season)
• Jonathan Quick, LAK - 6'1", 220lbs
• Jimmy Howard, DET - 6'1" 218lbs
• Braden Holby, WSH - 6'2", 217lbs
• Pekka Rinne, NSH - 6'5", 217lbs

It's funny that you mention Mason, though, because he's a big boy without the pads - 6'4" 217lbs.

To put this all in context, Tom Barrasso was the biggest goalie in the NHL 30 years ago at 6'3" 210lbs. He was one of only two goalies bigger than today's average of 6'2" 201lbs, the other being Daren Puppa (6'4" 205lbs). There are 20 goalies in the NHL this season that are physically bigger than Barrasso.

Don't forget Bishop, who I think is 6'7". Ken Dryden was a freak back in the day at 6'4".

As some have said, goalies today are bigger and better, and it's not even close in either category.

 

[radapex]

I want to believe that but I dunno..

There have been a few posts on hfboards over the past 18 months or so discussing the size of goalie equipment that pretty conclusively found that the size of blockers, trappers, and leg pads are as small as they've ever been right now.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1738903 - that mostly discusses the difference in leg pads

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1774111 - that's most a photo thread, but you can clear see the differences in the size of blocker/trapper from the past to now

The trend for blockers and trappers, which started a while back, was to go smaller but more padded to give goalies more control. I can't even imagine having to play with those old "waffle board" style blockers that went all the way up to the elbow!

 

[joeyjake5]

Don't forget Bishop, who I think is 6'7". Ken Dryden was a freak back in the day at 6'4".

As some have said, goalies today are bigger and better, and it's not even close in either category.[/QUOTE]

The best goalie since 1970 was the Dominator, none of these overstuffed pillows come close. And the Dominator did it without the advantage of oversized equipment. His body build might even have been slimmer than Tucka's.

 

[radapex]

The best goalie since 1970 was the Dominator, none of these overstuffed pillows come close. And the Dominator did it without the advantage of oversized equipment. His body build might even have been slimmer than Tucka's.

Hasek is an exception, not the rule. It'd be like saying that every player should play with a flat blade because Crosby has won both the Art Ross and the Rocket Richard using one. I'll also point out that the size of goalie equipment didn't really start to blow up until the NHL started transitioning to a defense-first league. That transition redefined the role of the goaltender from being a puck stopper to blocking the net.

Looking at goalie equipment reductions to increase scoring still isn't going to be effective. This was something Martin Brodeur even talked about after retiring. The reason being that, no matter what you do with goalie equipment, the game is still going to be played with a "defense first" mentality. Even 3-on-3 OT is getting some negative reviews now because coaches have started playing conservative hockey rather than going for the win.

If the NHL wants to increase scoring, they need to take a page from the NFL's playbook. In order to do it effectively, they'd need to implement rules to promote offensive play. Just simple stuff like making it a penalty to leave both feet to block a shot. Hell... even if they just started calling obstruction again we would see the game really open up.

 

[joeyjake5]

If these so called great big and better goalies of today were forced to wear normal, not oversized equipment, scoring would be up. This goes for price and king henry. Both are not really big men but with their equipment on they become giants.

 

[Jacob]

It's mostly in the pants, arms and waist that goalies are bigger. And the shoulder area.

I don't know how you regulate that, besides maybe measuring a player's waist with no equipment on and designating that his waist with equipment on can't be more than double the size it is without? Same for each thigh and the crook of the elbow.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If these so called great big and better goalies of today were forced to wear normal, not oversized equipment, scoring would be up. This goes for price and king henry. Both are not really big men but with their equipment on they become giants.

and if the great and better skaters of today were forced to use wooden sticks scoring would be down.

 

[radapex]

If these so called great big and better goalies of today were forced to wear normal, not oversized equipment, scoring would be up. This goes for price and king henry. Both are not really big men but with their equipment on they become giants.

Price isn't exactly tiny at 6'3" 216lbs. He's also talked about how he already wears smaller pads because he likes having the freedom to move around and utilize his athleticism.

I totally agree with Lundqvist, though. His pads are ridiculous, and are probably a necessity for him given how deep he plays. If a reduction in the size of C/A pads is going to cause anyone to struggle, it'd be him.

 

[joeyjake5]

lets put this goalie equipment argument in another way. Lets make the Dominator the standard. All goalies can not use bigger equipment proportionate to their body weight than what the Dominator used. If this could be done, scoring would be up.

Price, King Henry, and Quick will never be the goalie that the dominator was no matter how much oversized equipment they use. The dominator used normal size equipment, why can't these so called bigger and better goalies do the same. Simply, if they did, they wouldn't be as good.

 

[MtlPenFan]

You allow that goal today, you're probably a backup, and not a very good one.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

and if the great and better skaters of today were forced to use wooden sticks scoring would be down.

Kind of like in the 80's when players used wooden sticks and goalies had normal sized pads? Oh wait ...

 

[radapex]

lets put this goalie equipment argument in another way. Lets make the Dominator the standard. All goalies can not use bigger equipment proportionate to their body weight than what the Dominator used. If this could be done, scoring would be up.

Price, King Henry, and Quick will never be the goalie that the dominator was no matter how much oversized equipment they use. The dominator used normal size equipment, why can't these so called bigger and better goalies do the same. Simply, if they did, they wouldn't be as good.

It wouldn't though, that's the thing. Scoring wouldn't be up because defenses are still going to force shots to come from lower percentage areas.

According to the data on war-on-ice.com, there were 57,222 registered shots in the 2014-15 NHL season. 45.7% of those shots were taken from low percentage areas; 27.0% were taken from medium percentage areas; and 27.4% were taken from high percentage areas. Shooters scored on 2.62% of their shots from low percentage areas, 7.47% of their shots from medium percentage areas, and 16.50% of their shots from high percentage areas.

Now, for comparison I'll use the 2005-06 season since (a) that's as far back as war-on-ice.com's data goes and (b) it's the highest scoring season in the post-lockout era. In that season, there were 41,222 registered shots taken. 39.33% of those were taken from low percentage areas; 31.74% were taken from medium percentage areas; and 28.92% were taken from high percentage areas. Shooters scored on 2.70% of their shots from low percentage areas, 7.54% of their shots from medium percentage areas, and 20.88% of their shots from high percentage areas.

This suggests two things - (a) teams are clogging up the defensive zone much more now than they did a decade ago, hence the huge shift in shot distribution to the low percentage areas; and, (b) when shots are taken in high percentage areas, they likely still aren't great shots. Now, 16.50% is still really good. It's a difference is 1 in even 5 shots going in (20%) and 1 in every 6 shots going in (16.67%). Pretty negligible. So, again, it all comes down to shot distribution. Today's product is less exciting because players can't get shots off in high percentage areas. Defense is too tight, obstruction is too rampant, and not enough penalties are called. These are all issues that can be fixed without having to change the size of the rink or anything to do with equipment.

 

[Joejosh999]

You allow that goal today, you're probably a backup, and not a very good one.

As a G coach, I'd not only agree but would also add that the old-school style had the Gs rotate the skate outward, which is inherently slower than today's style of rotating the skate/knee/hip inward and down to flare the pad out.

Really, the invention of the better equipment allowed "regular guys" not just crazy-people, to try goaltending, and with that we got better athletes, and eventually actual coaching and training of the position, in a serious and detailed way.

Then when you add huge, excellent athletes to the now very detailed and well-trained techniques, there are far fewer goals.

But yah, the CAs need to shrink LOL!

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

New rule to promote scoring: if your SV% is above .910, you have to switch positions.

 

[plaidchuck]

The butterfly alone coupled with training on cutting down shooting angles revolutionized goaltending, suddenly you were able to cover a huge part of the net simply with positioning. Guys in my beer league wouldn't allow that goal in the video above. It's strange, they started using masks and more equipment but still played stand-up like they were trying to protect their face.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kind of like in the 80's when players used wooden sticks and goalies had normal sized pads? Oh wait ...

do you think goalies should have to use those kinds of pads while players get to use new sticks?

The butterfly alone coupled with training on cutting down shooting angles revolutionized goaltending, suddenly you were able to cover a huge part of the net simply with positioning. Guys in my beer league wouldn't allow that goal in the video above. It's strange, they started using masks and more equipment but still played stand-up like they were trying to protect their face.

Yep, a decent modern goalie could stop that shot damn near every time wearing those exact same pads.

 

[Jacob]

You allow that goal today, you're probably a backup, and not a very good one.

You're definitely getting yanked either way.