Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI December 15, 2017

[Acadmus]

Why does Han come back and saves Luke? Because. Sudden change of heart. Not consistent with the established character. Does it matter? No.

Lando leaves the Cloud City and his responsibilities behind when the deals he made were all to make sure it would survive. Decides to leave and fight with the Rebels when he realizes that he got screwed by Vader. Was established as a Me first character and made the altruist decision in the end. Would have benefited more PERSONALLY by playing along. That's the way the character was established, he had a sudden change of heart when he saw what was going on.

Same with Jyn, but you guys complain. She was raised by Saw Guerrera and he is established as an extremist that will do whatever it takes. She understand extremes and it is very clearly established. Maybe the reshoots make the change seem too sudden, but character wise, it makes sense and there is background to establish WHY she would react the way she did in the end. As much sense as it did for Lando and Han. Minor inconsistensies at best. Execution, on that exact point, is better in ESB and ANH.

I am just nitpicking for nitpicking's sake because I feel that's what many people do with R1 and TFA.

You're misunderstanding Lando's motivations. He was responsible for Cloud City and its inhabitants...he told Han and Leia he made the deal he felt would keep those under his care safe. He wasn't told Han would be used to experiment with freezing a human in the carbon gas freezing chamber, nor that Leia and Chewbacca would be turned over to Vader. But the last straw was learning Vader planned to leave a permanent garrison of stormtroopers on Cloud City, endangering the freedom of its citizens. That's when he turned on the Empire, when he realized there was no way to come out ahead in a deal with them. He was never really "me first" - more like, he was a guy who looked at the small picture, and his dealing with the Empire made him aware of his place in the big picture and that he had to help change it.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Yes, it is nitpick. Just like my comments on Han Solo were nitpicking. It doesn't make the story NOT work. Doesn't make the movie less enjoyable.

Yeah, it does. The emotional core of the film is Jyn Erso's relationship with her father. So it's a problem when that emotional core doesn't affect the 2nd half of the movie.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that the film in which the emotional buildup of the first half is mostly/completely abandoned is also the film that many people who saw it said the first half was boring. I dunno.

But to your first statement: no that's not a ****ing nitpick. This isn't an inconsequential detail that can be swept under the rug- like how Rey does not look like someone who has lived the last 10-15 years of her life as if she were a destitute thrall trapped in wage-slavery on DESERT PLANET.....II- but the story of the film not connecting on a scene-by-scene basis moments after it hit a high emotional beat!

Why am I supposed to be affected or care about Galen Erso's death if Jyn Erso herself doesn't care, or that said death, supposedly emotionally devastating for her (again, for some reason), has little to no impact on her actions outside of being a plot device?

You seriously don't think the film would be better if it realized that Jyn Erso should probably still be upset that the Rebellion killed her father? Like, instead of Jyn begging the Rebels to believe her and getting, "Meh" as a response, she tries to convince them but loses her cool over that precise point? And then Cassian convinces her that she needs to forgive the Rebellion, at least for now, so as to focus on the very important mission and thus preserving her father's legacy, if not literally but spiritually?

Like, you know, she has an actual freaking character arc that's connected to what happens on screen? You don't think that would improve Rogue One???

Is the movie perfect? No. It doesn't have to be. Hollywood films have these inconsistencies all the time. They are products. R1 is a product and works well as such. It is fun, mostly hits all the right notes and function perfectly within the Star Wars universe. Do the flaws really hinder the experience? Meh, maybe if you REALLY want to pay attention to that stuff.

Oh, I love this! "The movie isn't perfect, therefore if you're thinking critically about it you're just being mean."

The OT is filled with cheesy moments and does have some inconsistencies (Han, Lando, to re-use the examples I have used before).

Actually, there are two scenes in ANH that foreshadow Han showing up for the Death Star fight: in this scene at ~:25, and later, when Luke confronts Han about it, both which show he's conflicted about it. So when he shows up later it's not an out of nowhere inconsistency but a realization of his character arc. The same arc they tried (and kinda failed) to do with Jyn Erso: selfish misanthropic a-hole learns to be a part of something bigger than him/herself.

Not sure what your problem is with Lando, for one, Han trusting Lando easily is actually the point, (the point being that Han is kinda full of ****); for two, he betrays the Empire after a series of scenes in which Vader shows he's going to doublecross them/does doublecross them, capped with the great line, "I am altering the deal: pray I don't alter it further."; for three the heroes trust Lando afterwards (or accurately, Leia "trusts" him as Chewie immediately tries to murder Lando via asphyxiation by Wookie) because they don't exactly have a choice, and because Leia desperately wants to save Han; for four, this is all clearly communicated to the audience.

Han and Lando are fully justified characters (which is why they're memorable), while in the example I provided above, Jyn Erso goes from being furious at the Rebellion to trying to rally them in ~3 minutes because......who knows? I guess she forgot.

You're misunderstanding Lando's motivations. He was responsible for Cloud City and its inhabitants...he told Han and Leia he made the deal he felt would keep those under his care safe. He wasn't told Han would be used to experiment with freezing a human in the carbon gas freezing chamber, nor that Leia and Chewbacca would be turned over to Vader. But the last straw was learning Vader planned to leave a permanent garrison of stormtroopers on Cloud City, endangering the freedom of its citizens. That's when he turned on the Empire, when he realized there was no way to come out ahead in a deal with them.

I saw Empire recently, IIRC the last straw was Vader ordering Leia and the Wookie to be taken onto his ship (this being after Lando promised Leia that she would be safe on Cloud City), with aforementioned great line.

But it works so well, it isn't Lando going from "Team Empire" to "Team Rebels" over one little thing, but a slow, steady progression- so that when he does turn, it makes perfect sense. And I agree, they paint Lando as someone who took the deal because, as he understood it, they weren't actually going to hurt Han or Leia or anyone, they just wanted them as bait for Luke.

On this topic I think it's great that the heroes on Cloud City actually manage to escape mostly without the help of Luke (meaning that Yoda/Alec Guiness were right, all he was doing was rushing into a trap without thinking, to really no great effect anyway beyond being trounced by Vader). Great movie.

 

[Acadmus]

Rey was not trapped in "wage-slavery" - she was a scavenger getting shafted on payment, which consisted of necessary survival provisions. She didn't work for what's-his-face, she traded with him. Get your personal politics out of this discussion, please.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Rey was not trapped in "wage-slavery" - she was a scavenger getting shafted on payment, which consisted of necessary survival provisions. She didn't work for what's-his-face, she traded with him. Get your personal politics out of this discussion, please.

That's what wage slavery is- you work, but the system is rigged so that you only get enough funds from that work to ensure your continued work, and nothing else, thus ensuring a controllable pool of labor.

This isn't so much personal politics as the film getting the audience to sympathize/empathize with Rey ASAP because of her destitute situation.

Besides which, it's kind of tongue-in-cheek and moreso ancillary to the point I was making, so meh.

Why does Han come back and saves Luke? Because. Sudden change of heart. Not consistent with the established character. Does it matter? No.

Covered above.

Lando leaves the Cloud City and his responsibilities behind when the deals he made were all to make sure it would survive. Decides to leave and fight with the Rebels when he realizes that he got screwed by Vader.

Lando evacuates Cloud City at the end of ESB because he knows the Empire will be none too pleased with his betrayal.

Was established as a Me first character and made the altruist decision in the end.

Actually, no, he wasn't shown as a "me first" character, he specifies that the Empire arrived before Han Solo did to Cloud City- and he says, "I had no choice" because of it.

(If you want a nitpick, how the Empire beat Solo to Cloud City + how none of them notice that the Empire is there is never covered, but watch....who cares!?!!?)

Would have benefited more PERSONALLY by playing along. That's the way the character was established, he had a sudden change of heart when he saw what was going on.

Not really. He realizes through ~half a dozen scenes that the Empire is going to betray him, and that realization + he IS friends with Solo and Chewbacca (and likes Leia) causes his betrayal.

EDIT: Lando is certainly interested in the fortunes of Cloud City, it's the combination of his realization that the Empire is renegging/won't honor the deal ("I am altering the deal: pray I don't alter it further") + what they are doing to his friends (he's visibly upset when they torture Han + objects to the carbonite freezing and Leia and Chewbacca being removed from Cloud City).

@ bolded: Probably, but that doesn't contradict the character.

Same with Jyn, but you guys complain.

....

I am just nitpicking for nitpicking's sake because I feel that's what many people do with R1 and TFA.

Yeah, because there's no scene in the OT where the character has a powerful moment of catharsis and then said moment of catharsis is never again mentioned (outside of the argument with Cassian, which was good, could have been better, not the point).

 

[Acadmus]

That's what wage slavery is- you work, but the system is rigged so that you only get enough funds from that work to ensure your continued work, and nothing else, thus ensuring a controllable pool of labor.

No, wage-slavery first requires you be an employee, making a wage, and the term itself is so politically charged it has no place in this forum.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I have no problem with Han and Lando. I just nitpicked.

I have no problem with Jyn either and I disagree with your assessment of how it affects the story. I can easily justify her actions as you guys brillantly did with Han and Lando.

I am not saying that you should not think critically about TFA or R1, I am saying that if you do it with any OT movie you will find what you call flaws - mine where not the best, did them on the fly. If that's what your are into, fair enough. However, let us be clear. Internet has changed how we judge movies because it is easier to find people to discuss film with. The initial bliss of having seen the movie.is totally affected by the infinity of easily accessible opinions. Sequels will also be judged more harshly as they are constantly compared to the original. These two phenomenon did affect TFA and R1 after the first week or so. People enjoyed the experiencr than started reading and thinking about the movie and the glow faded.

If you let these details hinder your experience, well, you must hate 95% of Hollywood movies. That's my whole point. Star Wars was never great cinema. Cinematic flaws, big ones, can be found in all of them. Acting, dialogue, plot, etc. Not the same flaws appear in all SW movies, but all of them have flaws. What bothers me is when people act like the OT is some masterpiece. It has its warts too. ESB is the best of the bunch and, the awesome universe excluded, is still pretty average filmmaking wise.

Tl; dr: TFA and R1 are not fatally flawed movies like the prequels are.

 

[HanSolo]

I'd disagree greatly, but it may be a matter of preference. The acting in ANH seemed more, for lack of a better term, sincere. The actors seemed more natural in the roles. In TFA I felt like it was actors playing parts. There was a certain phoniness to it. This may boil down to acting techniques changing over time, or the difference between actors that were helping create a universe versus actors that were reviving an established one, I don't know. But I found the characters in ANH more believable and likable.

Eh personally I feel it's close so I agree with what you're saying about A New Hope feeling sincere. However, I feel Hamill as Luke in ANH just doesn't quite have the chops to feel genuine as he does in the later two. Many of his scenes I have trouble truly buying into as Luke Skywalker rather than Mark Hamill acting. Carrie Fisher, much as I love her, had her character written better than she performed it. She was at her best in Empire strikes back and then the quality dips again in Jedi. I've got nothing bad to say about Ford. Cushing is also excellent in his role as Tarkin but in the sense that a Shakespearean actor does what he is trained to do and not much more. Guiness as Kenobi...it's a good performance but to me I always get the vibe that he doesn't fully buy into what he's doing and doesn't commit as much as he could have, much as I'll always love the original Ben Kenobi for what he brought to the story, I've always felt (hope it's not blasphemous to laud something from the prequels) that McGregor was the superior Obi Wan Kenobi rendition. I don't think there's much sense in debating the Vader performance since there's one actor doing the physical work and another doing the voice. It combines to be a great character, but even more so in Empire and Jedi when the character gets more to work with.

But with The Force Awakens the only character I got the feeling you described (actors being actors and playing their roles for the sake of acting) was Domnhall Gleeson as Hux. The rest made me feel tied to the galaxy again in a way the prequels couldn't.

To me Rey was more sincere in her role than any character in a New Hope. Yes her character gets written like a Mary Sue (outside of her pulling the wrong fuses and releasing the rathtars which at this point I think people are ignoring on purpose, as well as the minor yet important character flaw of her refusal to accept her destiny and move on from Jakku) but, her emotional moments trump any in A New Hope and they are acted extremely well. When aunt Beru and Uncle Owen are killed he just kind of looks down and frowns then moves on. When Obi Wan dies yeah his "NOOO" was good but then he just mopes a little before moving on again seemingly unaffected. When Rey denies Luke's lightSabre it affects her entire performance for the rest of the movie which bleeds into Han's death which inspires her rage at Kylo Ren and then culminates in a sorrowful hug with Leia. Her emotional range is more profound than anything found in A New Hope in my opinion, from child like joy at seeing new things in the galaxy to sorrow and despair at the bleaker moments of the film

Ford as Han I felt was more heartfelt than he had been in any other Star Wars movie between his scenes recollecting his time with Luke, reuniting with Leia, and confronting his son. And I felt he was funny enough but not quite as much as he was in the OT.

Finn is getting a bit more of a bad rap than he deserves. I concede he's written to be too much of a goofball, and at times it can be tiresome, but I felt his betrayal of the First Order, his fear of it, his growing devotion to Rey as one of his first friends and his internal struggle between wanting to run and doing the right thing all felt very genuine and made me like the character despite his other flaws.

It may be an unpopular opinion but I felt this version of Carrie Fisher's Leia is second only to her performance in Empire Strikes Back. If not its equal. Fisher carries with her own personal struggles through life and trials and imbues it into a version of Leia that has been through the ringer for years. Leia is exhausted yet determined to her service to the galaxy. She misses her son and laments the fall to the dark side he has experienced. It isn't the best acting in the medium of film but it felt more touching and genuine than her performances in ANH and Jedi.

Oscar Issac's Poe didn't get a lot of screen time but I liked what they did with it. As much as he is a character that we've seen in other films, he's not exactly one we've seen in Star Wars necessarily. We've had guys like Wedge Antillies and his types but Poe is the first prominent gallant war hero type. A lot of people jump the gun and say he's supposed to be a Han Solo archetype because he cracks wise in the face of danger, but I feel he's more of a morally good and bold warrior set on nothing but the good of the galaxy. I hope his character gets expanded upon in the future because he's got a lot of potential.

And then there's Adam Driver's Kylo Ren and I know people are divided on him but I feel he's a solid enough anti classical villain. He adds his own Driver-esque strangeness to the role that does feel a bit out of place being the son of wise cracking and silver tongued parents like Han and Leia, but all the same I found his instability and insecurity a refreshing change of pace from the typical depiction of a dark side villain.

Maybe it's recency bias or maybe it's my feeling more attuned to more modern acting methods employed by the actors in TFA (or maybe both), but I enjoy the performances more in TFA than ANH. That said I do still enjoy the classic Star Wars tale of ANH more than TFA while still maintaining that TFA did enough different on a more macro level than the micro level people love to scrutinize TFA's plot under that I enjoy both near equally.

 

[Tawnos]

I have no problem with Han and Lando. I just nitpicked.

I have no problem with Jyn either and I disagree with your assessment of how it affects the story. I can easily justify her actions as you guys brillantly did with Han and Lando.

I am not saying that you should not think critically about TFA or R1, I am saying that if you do it with any OT movie you will find what you call flaws - mine where not the best, did them on the fly. If that's what your are into, fair enough. However, let us be clear. Internet has changed how we judge movies because it is easier to find people to discuss film with. The initial bliss of having seen the movie.is totally affected by the infinity of easily accessible opinions. Sequels will also be judged more harshly as they are constantly compared to the original. These two phenomenon did affect TFA and R1 after the first week or so. People enjoyed the experiencr than started reading and thinking about the movie and the glow faded.

If you let these details hinder your experience, well, you must hate 95% of Hollywood movies. That's my whole point. Star Wars was never great cinema. Cinematic flaws, big ones, can be found in all of them. Acting, dialogue, plot, etc. Not the same flaws appear in all SW movies, but all of them have flaws. What bothers me is when people act like the OT is some masterpiece. It has its warts too. ESB is the best of the bunch and, the awesome universe excluded, is still pretty average filmmaking wise.

Tl; dr: TFA and R1 are not fatally flawed movies like the prequels are.

Again agreeing with what you're writing here.

Star Wars barely even qualifies as Science Fiction as it doesn't really leverage science and technology to explore the human condition. It's really much more Fantasy, which leverages a fantastical and mystical setting to explore the human condition. And really, at that, it's pop fantasy.

The level to which pop of any kind stands up under critical scrutiny is small.

 

[kingsholygrail]

TFA had elements from all of the OT movies but also had it's own unique elements as well. Kylo Ren is not a fully realized villain in TFA. The OT had fully realized villains. Vader's only reveal was being Luke's father, but he was already attached to Luke's personal ancestry when Obi Wan described him as the killer of Luke's father, which was true (from a certain point of view ). The Emperor was already an established force of evil.

Kylo Ren is still establishing himself. I don't see that element at all in ANH, ESB, or RotJ.

 

[silverfish]

TFA had elements from all of the OT movies but also had it's own unique elements as well. Kylo Ren is not a fully realized villain in TFA. The OT had fully realized villains. Vader's only reveal was being Luke's father, but he was already attached to Luke's personal ancestry when Obi Wan described him as the killer of Luke's father, which was true (from a certain point of view ). The Emperor was already an established force of evil.

Kylo Ren is still establishing himself. I don't see that element at all in ANH, ESB, or RotJ.

This part of your post reminded me to post this

 

[kingsholygrail]

This part of your post reminded me to post this

He was a good friend.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Star Wars in the end just isn't really a great franchise.

Yes the OT was great but after that? You could certainly make the argument there hasn't been a good Star Wars movie since Jedi, Force Awakens was acceptable I guess fueled by the nostalgia of "OMG it Han Solo again!"

It's not really a deep franchise either I don't think.

 

[HanSolo]

He was a good friend.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Did someone really just say that Han coming back at the end of ANH is inconsistent?!

I think they need to read up on "character development"

 

[Tawnos]

Did someone really just say that Han coming back at the end of ANH is inconsistent?!

I think they need to read up on "character development"

He didn't say it seriously. I think you need to read up on "reading comprehension" and "reading thoroughly."

I mean, the argument could absolutely be made. The point is that it's ridiculous.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

He didn't say it seriously. I think you need to read up on "reading comprehension" and "reading thoroughly."

I mean, the argument could absolutely be made. The point is that it's ridiculous.

Unfortunately he fails to show how it is equally ridiculous to apply that argument to characters in R1.

 

[Tawnos]

Unfortunately he fails to show how it is equally ridiculous to apply that argument to characters in R1.

What part of "I'm pissed at the Rebel Alliance but am still dedicated to fulfilling my Fathers revenge and righting my family's name" is sooooo difficult to understand about the way Jyn develops? Particularly from a woman that it was established was raised by an extreme idealist?

 

[HanSolo]

What part of "I'm pissed at the Rebel Alliance but am still dedicated to fulfilling my Fathers revenge and righting my family's name" is sooooo difficult to understand about the way Jyn develops? Particularly from a woman that it was established was raised by an extreme idealist?

My issue there is that it happens so abruptly. We don't see that transition at all. It just happens..

Even after she saw her father's message she's more concerned with securing her father's safety than she is stopping the Empire. She goes from watching him die to being the only one in the rebellion wanting to fight.

Sure its implied that her father's death gets her riled up internally enough to take on the Empire but it really hurts that just after that scene she has her argument with Cassian where she tells him she doesn't give a **** about the rebellion or the Empire. She goes from that to, "we can do this guys" seemingly in the blink of an eye. It's like if you were out with friends and one of your friends insists on going to Burger King and gets everyone riled up for Burger King, then you get to burger King and she goes "we can't eat here guys, we're higher class than this. We need to go to a sit down place." then no one wants to so she storms out and walks to a sit down restaurant and a few people follow her and then everyone else follows.

It doesn't kill the movie for me but it lacks flow.

 

[Tawnos]

My issue there is that it happens so abruptly. We don't see that transition at all. It just happens..

Even after she saw her father's message she's more concerned with securing her father's safety than she is stopping the Empire. She goes from watching him die to being the only one in the rebellion wanting to fight.

Sure its implied that her father's death gets her riled up internally enough to take on the Empire but it really hurts that just after that scene she has her argument with Cassian where she tells him she doesn't give a **** about the rebellion or the Empire. She goes from that to, "we can do this guys" seemingly in the blink of an eye. It's like if you were out with friends and one of your friends insists on going to Burger King and gets everyone riled up for Burger King, then you get to burger King and she goes "we can't eat here guys, we're higher class than this. We need to go to a sit down place." then no one wants to so she storms out and walks to a sit down restaurant and a few people follow her and then everyone else follows.

It doesn't kill the movie for me but it lacks flow.

Yeah, but it's no more abrupt than Han's or Lando's switch. The only difference is that it happens in the middle of the movie and not at the end, so the resolution of the switch is still a third of the way from the end of the movie. I guess people would have felt better if she tried to leave, like Han did, only to get sucked back in at the last moment?

Also, it isn't the death of her father that prompts her speech. It's the resistance of members of the Alliance to the mission that does it. She doesn't just launch into it at the beginning of the meeting. To me, the delivery seemed more like she was frustrated than anything. More like, you guys are the Rebels, why is doing this even a question? And that reflected her upbringing by someone on the same side of the Rebels that broke with them.

It isn't like we never suspected she might hold those ideals. She's the one who says that accepting oppression isnt so hard if you ignore it. "It's not a problem if you don't look up."

 

[Blender]

Han coming to the rescue at the end of ANH is in no way abrupt. He's been developing slowly through the entire movie with everything he'd been through with Luke and Leia.

How are Lando's actions abrupt? He cuts a deal with Vader to protect his people, but the deal keeps getting worse and worse for him (and his people) so he goes back on the deal to help out the people (Han, Leia, and Chewie) that he never meant to put in harms way.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Glad there are R1 spoilers in here, that was fun

 

[HanSolo]

Glad there are R1 spoilers in here, that was fun

I sincerely apologize but I think it's not unfair to assume people who come here are caught up on the films that will have preceded episode 8.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Glad there are R1 spoilers in here, that was fun

Spoiler alert, the rebels get the plans.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Han coming to the rescue at the end of ANH is in no way abrupt. He's been developing slowly through the entire movie with everything he'd been through with Luke and Leia.

How are Lando's actions abrupt? He cuts a deal with Vader to protect his people, but the deal keeps getting worse and worse for him (and his people) so he goes back on the deal to help out the people (Han, Leia, and Chewie) that he never meant to put in harms way.

Just as Jyn develops. Both work just fine and pointing out both, to me, is nitpicking. That was my entire point.

Is it perfect? No. Can it be discussed? Yeah. Nitpicking is kinda fun, you know

 

[Blender]

Just as Jyn develops. Both work just fine and pointing out both, to me, is nitpicking. That was my entire point.

Is it perfect? No. Can it be discussed? Yeah. Nitpicking is kinda fun, you know

Jyn does not develop at all. She has informed attributes at the start of the movie and otherwise acts almost exactly the same throughout the entire movie.