Stan Bowman thread (mod warning post 965)

[Pez68]

Five years ago, maybe. Recency bias? This isn't a single season. Toews hasn't been a dominant two-way player since their last cup. He was pretty good in 2015-2016. He was crap all around in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. In 2018-2019 he was good offensively, but, again, crap defensively.

 

[Hawkaholic]

LOL @ crap defensively.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Five years ago, maybe. Recency bias? This isn't a single season. Toews hasn't been a dominant two-way player since their last cup. He was pretty good in 2015-2016. He was crap all around in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. In 2018-2019 he was good offensively, but, again, crap defensively.

You're aware they won their last cup like 4 years and 8 months ago, right? You're talking a matter of like 3 seasons. Recency bias. You're disqualifying Toews and what he was, and what he accomplished, because of what he has become over the past 3 seasons. That's called recency bias.

And crap? Top 25 center in the NHL... yep crap. Because that's what he has been, even with his decline, over the past 3 years.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Stan basically saying they do their job and I'll do mine...

NMCs rule them all, time for Kane to pull a Lebron.

 

[Pez68]

Toews has more ES pts than all those players, LOL. It's not Toews fault he plays in a shitty defensive zone scheme system whereas the other players don't.

What was his excuse in 2017-2018? How about 2016-2017? Plus/Minus is typically a useless stat, but I'm going to use it in context. How often do those "elite" two-way players finish in the bottom half of +- ON THEIR OWN TEAM? Toews hasn't been a dominant two-way player in a long time. In the glory days, even when he wasn't putting up points, you knew the other team wasn't scoring when he was on the ice. That hasn't been the case for YEARS now.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Last 2 seasons,
19th in ES pts in the NHL
25th in pts in the NHL (despite leagues worst PP)
135pts in 145GP
Positive CF% (despite playing on a team that gets out shot the most in the entire league)

 

[Pez68]

You're aware they won their last cup like 4 years and 8 months ago, right? You're talking a matter of like 3 seasons. Recency bias. You're disqualifying Toews and what he was, and what he accomplished, because of what he has become over the past 3 seasons. That's called recency bias.

And crap? Top 25 center in the NHL... yep crap. Because that's what he has been, even with his decline, over the past 3 years.

Your argument was that "Toews has always been a better C than Malkin". You realize "always" includes.....every season. Right?

 

[ChiHawks10]

Your argument was that "Toews has always been a better C than Malkin". You realize "always" includes.....every season. Right?

I disagree on the Malkin >> Toews thing. Malkin has been a better offensive center, Toews has been a better two-way center. I think Toews' dominant two-way play over the course of his career far outweighs the offense provided by Malkin. I'd say Malkin = Toews as overall players of their generation.

I think they're much closer than your recency bias is letting you think.

Actually, my argument is bolded. Don't try to put words in my mouth when the proof is one page behind us.

 

[Pez68]

"Generational" has always been something I've tried to stay away from when talking about players, though. There is so much that goes into what a player does/doesn't do on the ice... that I just don't like the term.

I could make the argument that Toews has always been a better C than Malkin. He has been healthier throughout his career, and he was the far better defensive player. Toews has been top 20 in Selke voting every year for his entire career. Malkin sniffed the top 50 one time, and that's it.

 

[ChiHawk21]

Stan basically saying they do their job and I'll do mine...

sorry i didnt read or see stans comment. what was it?

 

[ChiHawks10]

Your argument was that "Toews has always been a better C than Malkin". You realize "always" includes.....every season. Right?

Yes, and it also includes all those seasons of Malkin's where he played less than 2/3 of the games. Almost half of his career he did that, I believe.

 

[Hawkaholic]

What was his excuse in 2017-2018? How about 2016-2017? Plus/Minus is typically a useless stat, but I'm going to use it in context. How often do those "elite" two-way players finish in the bottom half of +- ON THEIR OWN TEAM? Toews hasn't been a dominant two-way player in a long time. In the glory days, even when he wasn't putting up points, you knew the other team wasn't scoring when he was on the ice. That hasn't been the case for YEARS now.

So now you are going back even further, to a time where Toews had a couple of bad years. Those years were anomalies, clearly. And yeah, plus minus is a useless stat, could have just stopped there. You are basically saying Kane is a better defensive player than Toews LMAO!

Whne you play the minutes Toews does on a garbage team, you are going to finish with bad numbers, like plus minus. Toews doesn't play with Brad Marchand and David Pastrnak, he doesn't play with Huberdeau, and Dadonov, he's stuck with a 3rd liner, and a rookie who can score goals.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I said I could make the argument, and I have. Pretty damn well, IMO.

My initial statement was that they are closer to being equal, and not Malkin >> Toews, though. It's my very first post on the topic.

I disagree on the Malkin >> Toews thing. Malkin has been a better offensive center, Toews has been a better two-way center. I think Toews' dominant two-way play over the course of his career far outweighs the offense provided by Malkin. I'd say Malkin = Toews as overall players of their generation.

So... yeah.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

sorry i didnt read or see stans comment. what was it?

read the article for comments from toews, kane and bowman

 

[ChiHawk21]

read the article for comments from toews, kane and bowman

thanks for some reason i thought it was behind a paywall

 

[ChiHawk21]

bowman getting irritated with the questions about the direction of the team.....but nobody knows the direction of the team. not even the players.

 

[Hawkaholic]

If Toews and Kane aren't happy with the direction of the team, you have to think this is Stans last year. I can't see them trading away 2 superstars to keep an average (at best) GM

 

[Toews2Bickell]

If Toews and Kane aren't happy with the direction of the team, you have to think this is Stans last year. I can't see them trading away 2 superstars to keep an average (at best) GM

The most interesting quote imo was Kane saying they'll talk to McDonough about the direction of the team after the season, not Stan. This was the answer to the question about if they have the patience to see this through..Also important to remember that the word is Seabrook and Toews went to McDonough during the season to complain about Colliton and how was handling things like sitting players and ultimately McDonough called Colliton into a meeting to change things (including his system) or he was gone.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

bowman getting irritated with the questions about the direction of the team.....but nobody knows the direction of the team. not even the players.

People get irritated with the media when they're floundering and things aren't working how they expected.

Live look at Stan

 

[Hattrick Kane]

The most interesting quote imo was Kane saying they'll talk to McDonough about the direction of the team after the season, not Stan. This was the answer to the question about if they have the patience to see this through..Also important to remember that the word is Seabrook and Toews went to McDonough during the season to complain about Colliton and how was handling things like sitting players and ultimately McDonough called Colliton into a meeting to change things (including his system) or he was gone.

To be fair, Seabrook deserves to be sat permanently. They players aren’t always right, and I’m in no way defending Colliton.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

If Stan will not move on from Colliton to hire Gallant, Lavi or BB then he needs to go for sure...

 

[ColdSteel2]

Another live look at Stan:

 

[Panzerspitze]

I look at the Penguins with Crosby and Malkin sitting near the top of their division and wonder why the Hawks with Kane and Toews couldn't be at least what the Pens are, a team that comfortably makes the playoffs every year, going back to the 2006-07 season the fewest points they have had in a full 82 game season has been 98, while they haven't always been championship level, they have avoided falling off a cliff like the Hawks have. I figured that as long as they had Kane and Toews they would be at least a strong playoff team, but I guess this isn't basketball where having two top stars will largely have you set. I fear that this will taint the legacy and memory of Kane and Toews and will be remembered more for this and the cups more forgotten

Both centermen, strong down the middle, and fill out the rest from there on out. Toews is a notch below those two as center. Kane is a one-dimensional winger.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

To be fair, Seabrook deserves to be sat permanently. They players aren’t always right, and I’m in no way defending Colliton.

I agree, I just find it interesting that their point of contact is McDonough and not Stan. Is that a reflection on what the players think of him at this point?

 

[Pez68]

Malkin put up 98 points in 2017-2018. He almost DOUBLED the points that Toews put up that season. No amount of defense closes that gap. None. In 2011-2012, Malkin again almost DOUBLED Toews' points.

Malkin has 8 more points than Toews this season, in 16 less games...

Malkin is also an absolute monster on the power play. Which, again, is another part of the game. One that allows Pittsburgh to stay in games they shouldn't, and win games when they are banged up.

Nobody is arguing that Toews isn't better defensively, but Malkin isn't Patrick Kane out there away from the puck. He is not BAD defensively. He is not a floater. He is tenacious on the forecheck and backcheck. His physicality is probably a big reason he misses a lot of games.

Toews was a better center for a handful of seasons during their careers. Outside of those few seasons, where Toews was a two-way monster, who also produced offensively, it's Malkin. And I say that as a guy who hates Malkin, because of how dirty he often is.