Speculation: Stammergeddon: Episode II - The not so phantom menace

[These Are The Days]

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[These Are The Days]

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We'd have to give up one of those promising prospects just to get someone to take Carle. And we don't exactly have a full cupboard of elite prospects to begin with.

Carle can be bought out next summer without much pain.

I'd rather have two players (Flip and Cally) for 11 million who are NOT useless when not scoring than to pay for a one dimensional Stamkos @ 11 million who is F'ing useless when he is not scoring goals and has become a liability and has literally cost his teammates production this season because of his bonehead play.

I'll give you Carle though Which is an insult to Callahan to even include him in the same boat as Matt Carle. I understand Callahan is down in production but nearly the entire team is hurting in production this season.

Why would we move someone who brings so much on and off the ice who is NOT a dime a dozen player? Yzerman traded for him, gave him that contact, because he knew what he was getting, and Callahan has delivered so far. The point production is not all on him this season, he has gotten much less ice time offensively and sacrficed PP time to play on the PK more. He leads all forwards in the NHL in blocked shots, leads the team in hits by a wide margin, So it's not a no-brainer.

The short of it, according to people who know more about salary than I do, is that assuming we dump Carle and the salary cap continues to increase, in the best case scenario, we simply cannot keep Kucherov, Palat and Hedman if we're paying $tamkos eight figures.

If we buy out Carle this summer, we gain 5.5M but have 1.8 dead money for 4 years. We lose the 1.6M of dead money on the cap when Gagner comes off next year. So I guess you could look at it as gaining .2M of dead money adding but dumping the 5.5M. Another problem is we lose the ability of going 3.6M over the cap when Ohlund's contract finally expires. If we were to sign Stamkos to 9-9.5M then my fear would be a team offering Kuch 6-7M per year as a RFA and we can't match. Ovechkin and Trotz love Kuch and they have a lot of Russians on the team. Plus other teams probably love him too. Ovechkin said he could be a 50 goal scorer. Then decisions have to be made on Killorn, JT, Vladdy, Paquette, JAM, and Nesterov. To me, Vladdy and Nesterov are no brainers. Killorn may be priced out. Paquette has injury concerns but his price should be reasonable. JT's price should be ok but there might not be room with Condra, Erne, and JAM. Big decisions have to be made in deciding the core of this team. Everything is made easier if we don't sign Stamkos. It's great to have a player like him at a reasonable price. But he just isn't enough of a complete player to justify close to 10M IMO.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Guys, can we pump the breaks on the Kucherov talk. He does look great but he's only played the equivalent of 2 seasons (only one full season). On top of that, for all that talent, dude can play just as lazy with as many bone headed mistakes as Stamkos.

Also, for whatever reason if another coach likes Stamkos they are idoit's that don't watch, but Trotz and others likes Kucherov they are spot on.

And let's stop with the whole Cally/Filppula stuff. Nobody in their right mind would keep those two over Stamkos.

The overall disregard for everything about Stamkos just to make your argument is making some sound foolish.

At this point I don't give a **** if we sign him or not, as long as the Lightning win, but the crazy talk in here is at an all time high.

 

[dechire]

Guys, can we pump the breaks on the Kucherov talk. He does look great but he's only played the equivalent of 2 seasons (only one full season). On top of that, for all that talent, dude can play just as lazy with as many bone headed mistakes as Stamkos.

Sorry but this is nonsense. He's played 12 fewer games than Nate MacKinnon. I am 100% confident in Avs fans' ability to judge MacKinnon's talent level. If you can't figure out whether a player is good or not after 160+ games then that's an issue with you, not the player. I mean every single person on this board can give you JT Brown's strengths and weaknesses and he's a bottom 6 player with fewer games than Kucherov.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Sorry but this is nonsense. He's played 12 fewer games than Nate MacKinnon. I am 100% confident in Avs fans' ability to judge MacKinnon's talent level. If you can't figure out whether a player is good or not after 160+ games then that's an issue with you, not the player. I mean every single person on this board can give you JT Brown's strengths and weaknesses and he's a bottom 6 player with fewer games than Kucherov.

I didn't say you can't figure it out. It's obvious he's good. But your ready to give him a big contract even though it is quite possible he will have a rut just like Stamkos. Then you will turn on him just like you're doing Stamkos.

You're ready to give Kuch 6-7 mil after two years of service even though he hasn't done anything remotely close to what Stamkos has accomplished. Then you're gonna tell me that you can't give Stamkos 10mil based off of past accomplishments especially the way he's played lately. But then you will go ahead and rave about Kane even though there wast that much he did to deserve a 10mil contract - now look what he's doing with that 10 mil contract.

See what I'm saying? Everybody is playing the ol' HFBoards "What Have You Done For Me Lately" game.

 

[MattM92]

I didn't say you can't figure it out. It's obvious he's good. But your ready to give him a big contract even though it is quite possible he will have a rut just like Stamkos. Then you will turn on him just like you're doing Stamkos.

You're ready to give Kuch 6-7 mil after two years of service even though he hasn't done anything remotely close to what Stamkos has accomplished. Then you're gonna tell me that you can't give Stamkos 10mil based off of past accomplishments especially the way he's played lately. But then you will go ahead and rave about Kane even though there wast that much he did to deserve a 10mil contract - now look what he's doing with that 10 mil contract.

See what I'm saying? Everybody is playing the ol' HFBoards "What Have You Done For Me Lately" game.

That's the way it works in the cap era man. You are only paid for what you can bring now. It's why Lecavalier was bought out.

 

[TampaBoltz]

Sorry but this is nonsense. He's played 12 fewer games than Nate MacKinnon. I am 100% confident in Avs fans' ability to judge MacKinnon's talent level. If you can't figure out whether a player is good or not after 160+ games then that's an issue with you, not the player. I mean every single person on this board can give you JT Brown's strengths and weaknesses and he's a bottom 6 player with fewer games than Kucherov.

I totally agree. If you can't project Kuch after playing the number of games(both regular season and playoffs) then something is wrong. That comment by Ovechkin about him being a 50 goal scorer sounded like a early recruiting signal for the off-season. The cap is so important to success. The Blackhawks won 1 with Kane, Toews and Keith making 875K, 850K and 1.9M. Then they won 2 with Kane at 6.3M, Toews-6.3M and Keith at 5.5M. I think they are finished now because of the 2 deals with Toews and Kane, even though Keith has a great cap hit. Pittsburgh won when Malkin was at 984K. The next year he went to 9.5M and they have struggled since. The Kings won twice with Doughty at 7M(steal), Kopitar at 6.8M and Brown at $3.5M. The Ducks won with Perry and Getzlaf on early contracts of 684K and 714K. Now they have 8.6M and 8.2M invested. We are in great position because of Hedman, Johnson, Kuch, and Palat being on great contracts. If we get healthy, make a key move or 2, I really think we can win this year. Even as the 8th seed. The point is, the cap and overpaying players can really kill a team. I want to keep as much of this core together as possible.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I didn't say you can't figure it out. It's obvious he's good. But your ready to give him a big contract even though it is quite possible he will have a rut just like Stamkos. Then you will turn on him just like you're doing Stamkos.

You're ready to give Kuch 6-7 mil after two years of service even though he hasn't done anything remotely close to what Stamkos has accomplished. Then you're gonna tell me that you can't give Stamkos 10mil based off of past accomplishments especially the way he's played lately. But then you will go ahead and rave about Kane even though there wast that much he did to deserve a 10mil contract - now look what he's doing with that 10 mil contract.

See what I'm saying? Everybody is playing the ol' HFBoards "What Have You Done For Me Lately" game.

Your post sums it up perfectly, you want to give Stamkos 10mil based on past accomplishments. Those happened 3 years ago, you need to pay for current and future production which isn't look so good for Stamkos. Stamkos' decent few games isn't changing anything and Kane has 3 cups and a Conn Smythe, I would say he did something pretty good to deserve that contract.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Your post sums it up perfectly, you want to give Stamkos 10mil based on past accomplishments. Those happened 3 years ago, you need to pay for current and future production which isn't look so good for Stamkos. Stamkos' decent few games isn't changing anything and Kane has 3 cups and a Conn Smythe, I would say he did something pretty good to deserve that contract.

Crosby, AO, Kane, Getz, and Malkin have all had down periods and bounced back. Stamkos is only 25. His leg is a concern though. But the docs and trainers are the only ones that know exactly what's going on there.

The Conn Smythe is very impressive but the 3 cups aren't his alone. How many cups did Justin Williams win with amazing performances?

We can do this all day but it doesnt matter. We're all just a bunch of fans that think we know a lot more than we do.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Crosby, AO, Kane, Getz, and Malkin have all had down periods and bounced back. Stamkos is only 25. His leg is a concern though. But the docs and trainers are the only ones that know exactly what's going on there.

The Conn Smythe is very impressive but the 3 cups aren't his alone. How many cups did Justin Williams win with amazing performances?

We can do this all day but it doesnt matter. We're all just a bunch of fans that think we know a lot more than we do.

All of those outside of Getzlaf have had just one down season not a string of them, they also have much better playoff resumes. All but Ovechkin have a Stanley Cup as well.

Justin Williams gets paid as a complementary player not as a super star which Stamkos wants to be. For that money Stamkos needs to bring it in the regular and post season which he has failed to do.

Speak for yourself I know everything and that's why what I say matters more then yours.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Where does this guy get off telling us we don't know everything?!

 

[These Are The Days]

I actually agree with Pete on the bulk of this. Kucherov has gotten lazy and sloppy since last year. When he first came on the scene he attempted AT LEAST a dozen shots per game. He created his own breakaways and was a threat to score every time he touched the puck. But now that Palat and Johnson are out of commission he's constantly making plays that none of his teammates can anticipate and is not attempting as many shots. That "killer instinct" is gone.

I think playing with the TKO line has mentally trained him to stop the heavy lifting he used to do.

As well with Stamkos no longer playing with St. Louis. He's been wandering like a lost dog for going on a year and a half now and we haven't been able to make Drouin/Stamkos a thing yet. It's impossible to determine what the captain is really worth anymore. I feel like a deal is going to get done but if the NHLPA, Don Meehan and Stamkos himself are pushing for a monster 8 year contract that he may not live up to then I'm going to be very apprehensive of that deal depending on what it is.

I bet they're telling him to chase the 8 year, $100 million dream and I am not in favor of it.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I actually agree with Pete on the bulk of this. Kucherov has gotten lazy and sloppy since last year. When he first came on the scene he attempted AT LEAST a dozen shots per game. He created his own breakaways and was a threat to score every time he touched the puck. But now that Palat and Johnson are out of commission he's constantly making plays that none of his teammates can anticipate and is not attempting as many shots. That "killer instinct" is gone.

I think playing with the TKO line has mentally trained him to stop the heavy lifting he used to do.

As well with Stamkos no longer playing with St. Louis. He's been wandering like a lost dog for going on a year and a half now and we haven't been able to make Drouin/Stamkos a thing yet. It's impossible to determine what the captain is really worth anymore. I feel like a deal is going to get done but if the NHLPA, Don Meehan and Stamkos himself are pushing for a monster 8 year contract that he may not live up to then I'm going to be very apprehensive of that deal depending on what it is.

I bet they're telling him to chase the 8 year, $100 million dream and I am not in favor of it.

Here's the thing though, why do we need to make Drouin/Stamkos work or player x/Stamkos? It's clear that St. Louis had a lot to do with Stamkos' success, you can't pay a player that much who needs other to make them look good.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Here's the thing though, why do we need to make Drouin/Stamkos work or player x/Stamkos? It's clear that St. Louis had a lot to do with Stamkos' success, you can't pay a player that much who needs other to make them look good.

I guess you don't NEED to make it work but you try to because players that score goals like he does are no where to be found.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I guess you don't NEED to make it work but you try to because players that score goals like he does are no where to be found.

There's currently 21 other players who have as many or more goals then him so there's plenty of them out there. Take away his PP goals and it looks even worse for him. He just isn't scoring 5 on 5 like you need him to.

 

[These Are The Days]

Here's the thing though, why do we need to make Drouin/Stamkos work or player x/Stamkos? It's clear that St. Louis had a lot to do with Stamkos' success, you can't pay a player that much who needs other to make them look good.

Players need others to look good/play well unless you're a generational talent like Crosby. No one here has ever claimed that Stamkos was a generational talent. If Patrick Kane played with Alex Killorn and Vlad Namestnikov every night instead of guys like Hossa, Teravinen and Panarin do you think he would've rattled off the longest scoring streak since Mario Lemieux?

Reciprocity is needed for a player to showcase his ability

 

[HoseEmDown]

Players need others to look good/play well unless you're a generational talent like Crosby. No one here has ever claimed that Stamkos was a generational talent. If Patrick Kane played with Alex Killorn and Vlad Namestnikov every night instead of guys like Hossa, Teravinen and Panarin do you think he would've rattled off the longest scoring streak since Mario Lemieux?

Reciprocity is needed for a player to showcase his ability

He wants to get paid more then Crosby or Malkin who seem to be able to play with anybody. Kane plays with Anisimov, who's similar to Filpulla who Stamkos sucks playing with. Panarin is good but so is Kucherov who Stamkos has played with lately. Kane had Handzus as his center a few years ago and was putting up points. Namestnikov is not that far off of Teravinen in talent and Killorn is your typical 2nd/3rd line tweener that most teams have playing in the top 6.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

There's currently 21 other players who have as many or more goals then him so there's plenty of them out there. Take away his PP goals and it looks even worse for him. He just isn't scoring 5 on 5 like you need him to.

You're kidding me with this, right?

 

[These Are The Days]

He wants to get paid more then Crosby or Malkin who seem to be able to play with anybody. Kane plays with Anisimov, who's similar to Filpulla who Stamkos sucks playing with. Panarin is good but so is Kucherov who Stamkos has played with lately. Kane had Handzus as his center a few years ago and was putting up points. Namestnikov is not that far off of Teravinen in talent and Killorn is your typical 2nd/3rd line tweener that most teams have playing in the top 6.

I never said Stamkos was worth being paid more than Sid. I said that good players often need good players around them. And you're making the very point I'm trying to present to you by pointing out the talent Kane has to work with.

The talent on the Hawks roster is far superior to ours. "Panarin's good but so is Kucherov"... dude are you watching ANY Chicago hockey? Panarin is like a tornado out there and attracts so much attention away from Kane that it's allowed him to go Super Man on the NHL. Kucherov dipsy doodles and goes through stretches where he has 1 goal in 12 games. Anisimov is better than the rapidly declining Filppula and the only comparison I can possibly agree with is Teravinen. But tell me, who was/is the tweener playing with Kane? Patrick Sharp?

Kane be shuffled to play with Hossa who is head and shoulders better than any winger on our team. He can play with Toews, a perennial Selke candidate and the model of consistency.

I used Kane as an example of a great player having great teammates. If you think a tweener in Killorn, a center that averages 1.3 shots per game in Filppula and a Mr. Do-it-all that's gone damn near 20 games without a goal is great teammates then I beg you to justify Stamkos' performance last year. Once he got away from them he started playing better and they started playing better.

Kucherov is the ONLY great talent that Stamkos has been able to consistently play with all season and for the first time since 2013, Stamkos is beginning to look a little bit like Stamkos again.

PS- the Hawks actually know what a power play is and isn't playing with dimwit Stralman who is 1 of 2 reasons why our power plays go KIA. He watches the puck whiz by him or bobbles it on the blue line or just makes bad passes that stop the play before it even starts.

He doesn't have Kucherov KIA'ing the power play by forcing bad passes back to the point and deferring to throw the puck into the slot with 3 defenders present instead of taking a shot.

Marchessault shoots right into the goalie's chest 85% of the time and Namestnikov will hold onto the puck for 10 seconds just to turn it over.

 

[HoseEmDown]

You're kidding me with this, right?

Oh I'm sorry, I'm supposed to look at his 2011-12 goal totals and ignore this season's.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Oh I'm sorry, I'm supposed to look at his 2011-12 goal totals and ignore this season's.

What about last season? Top two/three in goal scoring AGAIN. And not just last year - EVERY YEAR except the injury season.

The only better goal scorer than him has Backstrom passing him the puck every game.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I never said Stamkos was worth being paid more than Sid. I said that good players often need good players around them. And you're making the very point I'm trying to present to you by pointing out the talent Kane has to work with.

The talent on the Hawks roster is far superior to ours. "Panarin's good but so is Kucherov"... dude are you watching ANY Chicago hockey? Panarin is like a tornado out there and attracts so much attention away from Kane that it's allowed him to go Super Man on the NHL. Kucherov dipsy doodles and goes through stretches where he has 1 goal in 12 games. Anisimov is better than the rapidly declining Filppula and the only comparison I can possibly agree with is Teravinen. But tell me, who was/is the tweener playing with Kane? Patrick Sharp?

Kane be shuffled to play with Hossa who is head and shoulders better than any winger on our team. He can play with Toews, a perennial Selke candidate and the model of consistency.

I used Kane as an example of a great player having great teammates. If you think a tweener in Killorn, a center that averages 1.3 shots per game in Filppula and a Mr. Do-it-all that's gone damn near 20 games without a goal is great teammates then I beg you to justify Stamkos' performance last year. Once he got away from them he started playing better and they started playing better.

Kucherov is the ONLY great talent that Stamkos has been able to consistently play with all season and for the first time since 2013, Stamkos is beginning to look a little bit like Stamkos again.

PS- the Hawks actually know what a power play is and isn't playing with dimwit Stralman who is 1 of 2 reasons why our power plays go KIA. He watches the puck whiz by him or bobbles it on the blue line or just makes bad passes that stop the play before it even starts.

He doesn't have Kucherov KIA'ing the power play by forcing bad passes back to the point and deferring to throw the puck into the slot with 3 defenders present instead of taking a shot.

Marchessault shoots right into the goalie's chest 85% of the time and Namestnikov will hold onto the puck for 10 seconds just to turn it over.

When healthy we are close to Chicago talent wise. Panarin is good but like a said Kucherov when playing with better players, Palat and Johnson, is just as good. Hossa is declining, a healthy Palat is better then him, Johnson can outproduce Toews. Anisimov has had 1 20 goal season and 1 40 point season in his career, Filpulla is better then him.

The talent around Stamkos is just as good, if you want to say Chicago's is way better then why does Kane have almost 20 more points then the next player? He's just that much better then all them, Stamkos has like 1 point more then Kucherov. The problem is Stamkos makes players worse who play with him, everyone has an increase when they are off his line.

Yes the PP sucks but Stamkos shouldn't need that to get all his goals, it should help the total but he can't rely on that for his only production.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Yes the PP sucks but Stamkos shouldn't need that to get all his goals, it should help the total but he can't rely on that for his only production.

Stamkos was 2nd in the league in ESGs last year and 1st in 12-13 (13-14he was injured). The whole damn team can't score goals this year so this is another bogus point.

And BTW, the "best forward" on our team has less goals and point than the worst version of Steven Stamkos we've ever seen.

 

[JS91]

Stamkos was 2nd in the league in ESGs last year and 1st in 12-13 (13-14he was injured). The whole damn team can't score goals this year so this is another bogus point.

And BTW, the "best forward" on our team has less goals and point than the worst version of Steven Stamkos we've ever seen.

The best forward on our team will also make half of the money the worst version of Steven Stamkos we've ever seen will make in half a year.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

The best forward on our team will also make half of the money the worst version of Steven Stamkos we've ever seen will make in half a year.

That's not what you guys want to pay both of them though. That's the damn point.

You guys want to give Kuch 6-7 mil while saying Stamkos isn't even worth that. Yet, the worst version of Stamkos is still out producing the guy you say is worth more.