TBN: Stadium/Arena Thread

[SackTastic]

Wonder if they are making room for more family friendly experiences or other stuff to help entertain families during the game.

Soldier Field is 61500, you'd think they'd go to at least 65k.

 

[brian_griffin]

11k fewer seats, and half as many suites as they do today.

What in the world...

Unlike the commander in chief's "nuclear football" briefcase, which had a "0000" unlock code for many years, the vault where I have my first million dollars stashed uses the original Rich Stadium seating capacity, which was also the capacity when I began following the Bills, as the 5-digit access code: 80,020. The vault where I have my second million dollars stashed (in a different location - I'm no dummy!) has the Aud seating capacity (and typical attendance) from when I first started following the Sabres, 16,433. I can't forget those numbers. And now you won't, either.

 

[brian_griffin]

Seems a bit light on the seating ..

It's an intentionally low value, at the NFL minimum standards, as a ploy to get more public money in both real-dollar and percentage-of-total cost terms, to increase the seating.

OTOH, with the removal of NFL blackout restrictions, it could be a hedge against the eventual return of those rules.

 

[JThorne]

Low seating capacity to drive up demand and therefore inflate prices for a "real" reason? Haven't Bills tickets been in the lower end of the league pricing since forever?

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I realize just how old I am when I read these posts and have no idea who you are talking about!

That means that you might be older than the rest of us. And we're pretty old! (This was a mid-70's progressive rock music discussion. No Beach Boys or Beatles or Jan and Dean. LOL!)

I'm speculating that RJ might have the same response as yours.

Or he'll tell us that he has ALL of their albums....... lol.

 

[Kublakhan]

That means that you might be older than the rest of us. And we're pretty old! (This was a mid-70's progressive rock music discussion. No Beach Boys or Beatles or Jan and Dean. LOL!)

I'm speculating that RJ might have the same response as yours.

Or he'll tell us that he has ALL of their albums....... lol.

Wait I was thinking Beach Boys played Rich Stadium, but then I looked it up it was Pilot Field lol

 

[hizzoner]

That means that you might be older than the rest of us. And we're pretty old! (This was a mid-70's progressive rock music discussion. No Beach Boys or Beatles or Jan and Dean. LOL!)

I'm speculating that RJ might have the same response as yours.

Or he'll tell us that he has ALL of their albums....... lol.

All fine singers but my later teens and early college years --Marty Robbins, Connie Francis, Patsy Cline, Dion Dimuci, Buddy Holly...and no I did not have a gramophone!

 

[SackTastic]

It's an intentionally low value, at the NFL minimum standards, as a ploy to get more public money in both real-dollar and percentage-of-total cost terms, to increase the seating.

OTOH, with the removal of NFL blackout restrictions, it could be a hedge against the eventual return of those rules.

I don't see the NFL ever putting the blackout rules still in place. The NFL has increasingly become a TV driven league, with the TV deals becoming a larger percentage of revenue every season.

Smaller stadiums do juice demand a bit, allowing for a higher ticket price, but I'm not sure that it offsets the loss of revenue for having 10k less tickets sold as some have suggested. I do think you are right that it's a way to extract a higher % of public money.

I also think that the final design is going to have some elements of expandability. By that I don't mean adding another deck or something, but having areas that aren't part of the 'standard' stadium capacity numbers, but could be used for SRO or temporary seating. By doing that :

• Regular game prices stay slightly juiced up by reduced supply.
• Playoff games, which always have more expensive tickets, they can capture more demand at the elevated pricing in the temporary areas.
• Reduced operational/maintenance costs generally.
• More opportunity to book concerts and events that have generally been passing the area by. (Too large for KBC, but not large enough to fill 70k+. ) Temporary seating still allows them to expand and catch the big shows.

I still think they will land with permanent seating above 60k. They have been consistently averaging mid-high 60Ks per game for the last decade, low points being the ChanTastic years. Probably something like 62-64k probably puts them in the sweet spot.

 

[Uberpecker]

Not from Buffalo myself, but within the construction/real estate industry.

Refurbishment needs to be the preferred option if the community cares even an ounce about sustainability and especially if tax payer money is involved.

 

[Jim Bob]

Sources with access to the November 2019 study that examined a potential downtown Bills stadium say it would cost an extra $500 million to construct and hundreds of millions more in infrastructure accommodations.

The sources said infrastructure costs to build another Orchard Park stadium across Abbott Road would be less than $10 million.

The disparity comes from the Orchard Park site essentially being shovel-ready and already connected to its utility needs, giving the project a 42- to 48-month construction schedule.

A downtown stadium would require so much groundwork that the project would take about 72 months, incurring more labor costs on top of added inflation. The project would require environmental studies and municipal overhauls such as relocating a power substation, electrical cables, water mains, storm sewers, gas lines and fiber optics, all of which are currently in service and would need to be disrupted.
Those issues wouldn’t be a concern in Orchard Park.

The sources said a retractable roof at either locale would add $400 million to the price tag.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

I got zero desire for a DT stadium. When I was in my teens and early 20s I was all for it but especially after last Sunday just trying to navigate to and from the Ralph, yeah no thanks I could care less about a cool skyline picture. That is all a dt stadium would be good for.

 

[Chainshot]

Sounds like sewer and water concerns for something downtown.

 

[Husko]

I got zero desire for a DT stadium. When I was in my teens and early 20s I was all for it but especially after last Sunday just trying to navigate to and from the Ralph, yeah no thanks I could care less about a cool skyline picture. That is all a dt stadium would be good for.

A downtown stadium, with ample hotels and public transportation at your doorstep, as opposed to in the middle of nowhere, would be much easier to navigate to, not harder. It’s about accessibility, not a pretty skyline.

 

[SackTastic]

A downtown stadium, with ample hotels and public transportation at your doorstep, as opposed to in the middle of nowhere, would be much easier to navigate to, not harder. It’s about accessibility, not a pretty skyline.

If the 4 and 6 lane roads around the current stadium couldn't handle the traffic rush, how well do you think 2 lane South Park Ave in the city is going to hold up?

The article (if you can read it) lays out the downtown challenges quite nicely. Even if it did happen, tailgaiting as we know it today would cease to exist.

 

[5 Minute Major]

Not from Buffalo myself, but within the construction/real estate industry.

Refurbishment needs to be the preferred option if the community cares even an ounce about sustainability and especially if tax payer money is involved.

The article aI read yesterday said refurbishment would actually cost MORE than building from scratch.

 

[joshjull]

A downtown stadium, with ample hotels and public transportation at your doorstep, as opposed to in the middle of nowhere, would be much easier to navigate to, not harder. It’s about accessibility, not a pretty skyline.

Accessibility isn’t an issue for the OP location. Hotels aren’t either

Heading out to the stadium from a downtown hotel is not a big deal. As someone who used to do fire inspections of the hotels downtown. I can tell you the downtown hotels are booked solid for home games. Including the visiting team staying in one. They don’t need a downtown stadium to make that happen.

I don’t know how traffic would be for a downtown stadium vs OP because parking would be completely different. It would be impossible to get the entire stadium capacity to be able to park as close to a downtown stadium as you do in OP. There just wouldn’t be sufficient parking near the downtown stadium. I can’t see how even half of the fans could get near a downtown stadium to park. Even a Sabres game leads traffic jams right after the game. That’s with a fraction of the amount of fans.

You’re also overly optimistic about fans wanting to use public transportation. It wouldn’t jive with the tailgating culture thats been built up around Bills games. Plus for a decent chunk of fans its not really an option (Canadians).

I’d love to see a downtown stadium. But its benefits vs the OP location aren’t as cut and dry as your trying to make them.

 

[Chainshot]

Accessibility isn’t an issue for the OP location. Hotels aren’t either

Heading out to the stadium from a downtown hotel is not a big deal. As someone who used to do fire inspections of the hotels downtown. I can tell you the downtown hotels are booked solid for home games. Including the visiting team staying in one. They don’t need a downtown stadium to make that happen.

I don’t know how traffic would be for a downtown stadium vs OP because parking would be completely different. It would be impossible to get the entire stadium capacity to be able to park as close to a downtown stadium as you do in OP. There just wouldn’t be sufficient parking near the downtown stadium. I can’t see how even half of the fans could get near a downtown stadium to park. Even a Sabres game leads traffic jams right after the game. That’s with a fraction of the amount of fans.

You’re also overly optimistic about fans wanting to use public transportation. It wouldn’t jive with the tailgating culture thats been built up around Bills games. Plus for a decent chunk of fans its not really an option (Canadians).

I’d love to see a downtown stadium. But its benefits vs the OP location aren’t as cut and dry as your trying to make them.

It sounds like they would have to think about expanding rapid transit to have the light rail go out at least as far as Blasdell. And if they do that... just have it go all the way out to California Rd and have a station by the current and likely future stadium.

 

[Uberpecker]

The article aI read yesterday said refurbishment would actually cost MORE than building from scratch.

That may very well be the case, but the question to ask is why. And the answer to that is of course man hours.

Renovation/remodelling requires more and higher qualified human labour, which in most Western economies ranks among the most expensive commodities, even though it is renewable and benefitting to said societies, since it equals employment.

IOW, investing tax payer money into a renovation project instead of a new building means much more, longer and higher qualified employment for tendencially more locals (since lower qualified work is usually done by immigrants/guest workers) and therefore more money in the pockets of working- and middle class families.

And that's not even taking into account that whole sustainability/ecology aspect, which is of course highly in favor of renovation.

 

[5 Minute Major]

That may very well be the case, but the question to ask is why. And the answer to that is of course man hours.

Renovation/remodelling requires more and higher qualified human labour, which in most Western economies ranks among the most expensive commodities, even though it is renewable and benefitting to said societies, since it equals employment.

IOW, investing tax payer money into a renovation project instead of a new building means much more, longer and higher qualified employment for tendencially more locals (since lower qualified work is usually done by immigrants/guest workers) and therefore more money in the pockets of working- and middle class families.

And that's not even taking into account that whole sustainability/ecology aspect, which is of course highly in favor of renovation.

Actually, the reason given is the lack of taking care of the current facility.

 

[Uberpecker]

Actually, the reason given is the lack of taking care of the current facility.

Not entirely sure what "lack of taking care of the current facility" is supposed to mean in practice here.

If my suspicion is correct it means not having to renovate the current stadium which would mean that all my points stand.

Do you happen to have a link to the article?

 

[SackTastic]

Actually, the reason given is the lack of taking care of the current facility.

No, that's not the reason at all.

It's an open air concrete structure that is approaching 50 years of being exposed to the elements. It's well past the point where patching things up is feasible or safe anymore. Any sort of 'renovation' at this point would be like Solider Field ; they would have to scoop out and rebuild everything inside the stadium perimeter , and at that point you're probably 75-80% of the costs of just building a new one across the street.

 

[SackTastic]

It sounds like they would have to think about expanding rapid transit to have the light rail go out at least as far as Blasdell. And if they do that... just have it go all the way out to California Rd and have a station by the current and likely future stadium.

As much as my nerdy self would love that, never going to happen. They could get most of the way there on existing / unused freight right of ways ,but they would hit a NIMBY wall from all the OP homeowners who don't want easy access for those dirty city people. Go read the comments from Amherst residents on the Metro expansion that way. It would be identical.

 

[SackTastic]

Accessibility isn’t an issue for the OP location. Hotels aren’t either

Heading out to the stadium from a downtown hotel is not a big deal. As someone who used to do fire inspections of the hotels downtown. I can tell you the downtown hotels are booked solid for home games. Including the visiting team staying in one. They don’t need a downtown stadium to make that happen.

I don’t know how traffic would be for a downtown stadium vs OP because parking would be completely different. It would be impossible to get the entire stadium capacity to be able to park as close to a downtown stadium as you do in OP. There just wouldn’t be sufficient parking near the downtown stadium. I can’t see how even half of the fans could get near a downtown stadium to park. Even a Sabres game leads traffic jams right after the game. That’s with a fraction of the amount of fans.

You’re also overly optimistic about fans wanting to use public transportation. It wouldn’t jive with the tailgating culture thats been built up around Bills games. Plus for a decent chunk of fans its not really an option (Canadians).

I’d love to see a downtown stadium. But its benefits vs the OP location aren’t as cut and dry as your trying to make them.

That Tim Graham article that cited the actual plans said the downtown stadium would have less than 1300 parking spaces on site. They proposed a terraced parking garage by Larkinville for 'vertical tailgating', but that was only another 1500 spaces.

Even when you consider the next rings of lots 1/2-3/4mi away, still not enough parking. Tailgating as we know it would be completely dead downtown.

 

[5 Minute Major]

No, that's not the reason at all.

It's an open air concrete structure that is approaching 50 years of being exposed to the elements. It's well past the point where patching things up is feasible or safe anymore. Any sort of 'renovation' at this point would be like Solider Field ; they would have to scoop out and rebuild everything inside the stadium perimeter , and at that point you're probably 75-80% of the costs of just building a new one across the street.

Yeah, it was a listedd reason.

 

[hizzoner]

Unlike the commander in chief's "nuclear football" briefcase, which had a "0000" unlock code for many years, the vault where I have my first million dollars stashed uses the original Rich Stadium seating capacity, which was also the capacity when I began following the Bills, as the 5-digit access code: 80,020. The vault where I have my second million dollars stashed (in a different location - I'm no dummy!) has the Aud seating capacity (and typical attendance) from when I first started following the Sabres, 16,433. I can't forget those numbers. And now you won't, either.

Why all this for your petty cash? Where do you keep the real stash?