TBN: Stadium/Arena Thread

[Husko]

I'm still not passed them wanting to rebuild in the same next-to-nothing location. Hurts to think about.

 

[Kublakhan]

I'm still not passed them wanting to rebuild in the same next-to-nothing location. Hurts to think about.

I know if they are going to build it needs to be downtown

 

[Sabre Dance]

I know if they are going to build it needs to be downtown

Has anyone ever given a reason why it needs to be downtown?

I can't think of any reason to spend twice as much just to build in a different location.

 

[SackTastic]

Why would NYS want that leaked? NYS and the Pegula's want the same thing, a new stadium for the Bills.

The report got out and the media ran wild to get clicks. Nothing will draw traffic more than a Bills fan being told their team might be leaving.

This article, however, is obviously the Pegula's trying to swing the narrative.

You know what other teams call "an additional $146 million on unreimbursed capital and game-day and stadium-related expenses.". That's operational expenses. The idea they are trying to swing that to say "Look, we're spending money on the stadium too" is laughable. And to give the media a tour to show they need a new stadium.

I don't think anyone is arguing the ralph needs to be replaced. However, given the Bills just signed an 11 year TV deal which their end should be about 3.5B....the Pegula's can pay the lions share of the new stadium, easily, with no money out of their own pocket.

Politics.

• Leak a story about how the Bills want the taxpayers to pay for the whole thing.
• When the final deal ends up being less than that, loads of politicians get to run ads that they 'Fought to keep the Bills here" , while also "Standing up for the taxpayers" for their next election cycles.

To the capital expenses (which are not operational expenses in any universe) , remember that the Bills LEASE the stadium and property. Everything they built there ends up being property of Erie County. It is certainly some PR, because the old stadium is very unlikely to be kept, so anything the Bills paid for out of pocket in there is going away. But there is something to be said for the out buildings that, should the Bills not retain a lease on, could be used by Erie County for something later. It's probably unlikely, but it's a semi valid point to raise. (Still mostly PR though.)

Actually pretty much everyone agrees it makes the most sense to replace the current building. It's a 50 year old, mostly concrete structure. It would require some massive rebuilding of the concrete bones in many areas, that would be hella expensive.

 

[SackTastic]

I know if they are going to build it needs to be downtown

It's not going to happen.

Pegula didn't hide things well when he started buying up properties downtown. Everyone around there got wind of it and started raising their asking prices to silly numbers, which he didn't want to pay.

On top of that, a LOT of money would have to be spend on road / infrastructure improvements in the area , especially the access to the 190. The Louisiana / Hamburg Street ramps aren't enough. That alone would almost double the amount of public investment.

 

[Husko]

Has anyone ever given a reason why it needs to be downtown?

I can't think of any reason to spend twice as much just to build in a different location.

(1) Proximity to hotels
(2) Proximity to public transportation
(3) More centrally located for other uses (concerts, conventions, etc.) which should be a big priority if it is getting public funds
(4) Could have one multi use facility for the Bills and Sabres

Really it all just boils down to accessibility. Having it downtown makes it more accessible to more people. Which, if you're asking for oodles of public dollars, should be the goal.

Buffalo fans often complain about Buffalo not being treated like a real city. Well, connecting a major infrastructure expenditure like this to the existing public transportation network would be a nice start. Run a subway out to orchard park and then I'll start thinking of that location as anything but a bad joke.

 

[JThorne]

Has anyone ever given a reason why it needs to be downtown?

I can't think of any reason to spend twice as much just to build in a different location.

I believe the plan is to use it more than just for Bills/High School games and the occasional concert. Were it downtown, then the use would be much easier. Plus, there is the metro rail to downtown, which means UB students can become Bills fans. Yeah yeah, I know there are buses and such. I'm just spitballing ideas I've heard floated around.

Anyone wishing for a dome so we can get a superbowl is out to lunch btw. WNY doesn't have the required hotel capacity to host a superbowl.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I had a chance to see the Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, and Howe group back in the day at Darien Lake. Really strong performance. The new stuff they played was top notch. Bruford was always my favorite drummer.

Bill Bruford forever drumming jazz in a progressive rock band. And it worked! He's my favorite drummer too.

I never could get the order of the names correct in Anderson et al even tho I still own the CD's!

They wanted to call themselves Yes but Chris Squire nixed that legally. Should have called themselves NS..... No Squire!
LOL!

 

[Dex]

Bill Bruford forever drumming jazz in a progressive rock band. And it worked! He's my favorite drummer too.

I never could get the order of the names correct in Anderson et al even tho I still own the CD's!

They wanted to call themselves Yes but Chris Squire nixed that legally. Should have called themselves NS..... No Squire!
LOL!

I really loved Bruford's work with King Crimson across several versions of that band. I never saw King Crimson live while Bruford was with them but did get to see the latest incarnation in Rochester a couple of years ago. Also getting to see them at Art Park later this month.

I did catch a performance of Bill Bruford's Earthworks at the Tralf in Buffalo back in the day. Great show

 

[Sabre Dance]

I believe the plan is to use it more than just for Bills/High School games and the occasional concert. Were it downtown, then the use would be much easier. Plus, there is the metro rail to downtown, which means UB students can become Bills fans. Yeah yeah, I know there are buses and such. I'm just spitballing ideas I've heard floated around.

Anyone wishing for a dome so we can get a superbowl is out to lunch btw. WNY doesn't have the required hotel capacity to host a superbowl.

I know what it could be used for but who's paying another billion+ for a stadium to be in downtown Buffalo? It's just a poor investment. When the stadium report came out about 10 years ago the cost of building downtown wasn't much different from building anywhere else. So it made sense to put it downtown. But if it really is that much more to build downtown then there's no financial sense to do it.

 

[Chainshot]

An interesting add on to this. Per the recent Census, The City of Buffalo had its first population increase since 1950. Up 17K to about 280k total. Only took 70 years to stop the bleeding!

Erie County population went up 35k to 954k total. The population of those counties you listed for WNY is roughly 1.5mil.


You mentioned the Buffalo and Rochester MSAs but forgot our friends in Ontario. The Hamilton and St.Catherine’s metro areas have about 1.3mil combined and of course Toronto’s 6.5million metro area. I think thats who @Chainshot was referring to.



Within 2hrs we have a population and corporate money base that rivals most American cities. It can be and is tapped into by the Bills for corporate suite sales, luxury boxes, general tickets sales, etc. Since its another country it obviously can’t be counted on for public dollars to build the new stadium. But it is relied on for the bottom line of the Bills. Its a unique situation.

The folks in So. Ontario are exactly who I was referring to.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I really loved Bruford's work with King Crimson across several versions of that band. I never saw King Crimson live while Bruford was with them but did get to see the latest incarnation in Rochester a couple of years ago. Also getting to see them at Art Park later this month.

I did catch a performance of Bill Bruford's Earthworks at the Tralf in Buffalo back in the day. Great show

He drummed for Genesis during their Trick of the Tail tour allowing Phil Collins to front man the group (After Peter Gabriel's departure). I saw them in Buffalo at the old movie theater downtown (Shea's?) in 76 or 77. Told everyone I was going to that show to see Bruford not Genesis.

And I meant it.

 

[oldgoalie]

He drummed for Genesis during their Trick of the Tail tour allowing Phil Collins to front man the group (After Peter Gabriel's departure). I saw them in Buffalo at the old movie theater downtown (Shea's?) in 76 or 77. Told everyone I was going to that show to see Bruford not Genesis.

And I meant it.

Bruford was awesome on that tour, and also on the Seconds Out live album that came from the TOTT tour. But Chester Thompson (Zappa) slid into the tour drummer spot after Bruford, and Genesis never looked back. Seeing Phil and Chester do their drum duel/drum duet live was something to behold.

 

[Dex]

He drummed for Genesis during their Trick of the Tail tour allowing Phil Collins to front man the group (After Peter Gabriel's departure). I saw them in Buffalo at the old movie theater downtown (Shea's?) in 76 or 77. Told everyone I was going to that show to see Bruford not Genesis.

And I meant it.

I saw that show as well. It was at the Century Theater - which unfortunately was torn down several years later. The Century was owned and operated by Harvey and Corky Productions. The Harvey half was Harvey Weinstein - long before he went into the movie making business with Miramax Films. Bruford was between gigs as King Crimson had just gone on hiatus.

Oldgoalie mentions Chester Thompson and yes - the duet of Thompson and Collins was phenomenal. Which brings to mind how great a drummer Phil Collins was on those early Genesis recordings as well as Brand X

 

[Kublakhan]

He drummed for Genesis during their Trick of the Tail tour allowing Phil Collins to front man the group (After Peter Gabriel's departure). I saw them in Buffalo at the old movie theater downtown (Shea's?) in 76 or 77. Told everyone I was going to that show to see Bruford not Genesis.

And I meant it.

Some of my favorite Genesis stuff for sure.. If you haven't seen it check it out.. It seems Bill is a Boston fan lol

Genesis - Live - In Concert (1976) - YouTube

 

[oldgoalie]

Some of my favorite Genesis stuff for sure.. If you haven't seen it check it out.. It seems Bill is a Boston fan lol

Genesis - Live - In Concert (1976) - YouTube

Somewhere in France in a film vault is the entire Seconds Out concert recording - audio and video... part of it was shown as a Genesis film at theaters in the 70s, along with a film Rick Wakeman made. If only the owner of that film would give it the publicity that it deserves...

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I saw that show as well. It was at the Century Theater - which unfortunately was torn down several years later. The Century was owned and operated by Harvey and Corky Productions. The Harvey half was Harvey Weinstein - long before he went into the movie making business with Miramax Films. Bruford was between gigs as King Crimson had just gone on hiatus.

Oldgoalie mentions Chester Thompson and yes - the duet of Thompson and Collins was phenomenal. Which brings to mind how great a drummer Phil Collins was on those early Genesis recordings as well as Brand X

Thanks. It was the Century. I really liked that place. Grungy and a fire trap but the acoustics were good. You could take a piece of the old peeling wall paper with you home as a memento!

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Some of my favorite Genesis stuff for sure.. If you haven't seen it check it out.. It seems Bill is a Boston fan lol

Genesis - Live - In Concert (1976) - YouTube

I think he wore the Bruins tank because of the logo.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Bruford was awesome on that tour, and also on the Seconds Out live album that came from the TOTT tour. But Chester Thompson (Zappa) slid into the tour drummer spot after Bruford, and Genesis never looked back. Seeing Phil and Chester do their drum duel/drum duet live was something to behold.

After Bruford left Yes, he joined King Crimson. (Fripp..... in his irish broug "sooo ye think ye'r ready for this Billy?" (Brufords own words..)

Question: when Bruford supported Collins and Genesis on tour, was King Crimson on hiatus?

Or do I have my chronologies wrong?"

 

[oldgoalie]

After Bruford left Yes, he joined King Crimson. (Fripp..... in his irish broug "sooo ye think ye'r ready for this Billy?" (Brufords own words..)

Question: when Bruford supported Collins and Genesis on tour, was King Crimson on hiatus?

Or do I have my chronologies wrong?"

I think Dex said in a thread above that Crimson was on hiatus... and mentioning Fripp ties into Peter Gabriel's first solo works, where Fripp played/worked with him, and where you can find several excellent versions of "Here Comes the Flood"...
so now we have tied Wakeman/Yes, to Genesis/Bill to Gabriel/Fripp and King Crimson... and from the Ralph and Summerfests to Genesis/Gabriel and the old Century Theater...nice work all.
I'd say it's time to go listen to some good music for a change.

 

[Dex]

The Bruford/Wetton/Fripp version of Crimson packed it in in 1975, so Bruford was a free agent. After the Genesis tour he did some solo stuff with Alan Holdsworth on some of the recordings and also was in a band called UK with John Wetton and Eddie Jobson. Not sure if he did one or two albums with them - but I liked the group. Then around -81 Fripp reformed King Crimson with Bruford, Adrian Belew, Tony Levin and maybe one other guy and they did three albums until around '85 or so when they disbanded again. I loved the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford band and enjoyed the Belew years as well, but it was tough to beat that 71-75 version of the band

 

[Dex]

I think he wore the Bruins tank because of the logo.

That's the only thing I disliked about Bruford

 

[oldgoalie]

The Bruford/Wetton/Fripp version of Crimson packed it in in 1975, so Bruford was a free agent. After that tour he did some solo stuff with Alan Holdsworth on some of the recordings and also was in a band called UK with John Wetton and Eddie Jobson. Not sure if he did one or two albums with them - but I liked the group. Then around -81 Fripp reformed King Crimson with Bruford, Adrian Belew, Tony Levin and maybe one other guy and the did three albums until around '85 or so when they disbanded again. I loved the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford band and enjoyed the Belew years as well, but it was tough to beat that 71-75 version of the band

I've seen Tony Levin with PG at least a half dozen times... I love his bass work. Funk fingers, using a bow... the guy is awesome.
Go search youtube for Steve Hackett with the late, great John Wetton for their version of "Afterglow", or "Firth of Fifth".

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

I believe the plan is to use it more than just for Bills/High School games and the occasional concert. Were it downtown, then the use would be much easier. Plus, there is the metro rail to downtown, which means UB students can become Bills fans. Yeah yeah, I know there are buses and such. I'm just spitballing ideas I've heard floated around.

Anyone wishing for a dome so we can get a superbowl is out to lunch btw. WNY doesn't have the required hotel capacity to host a superbowl.

But there are enough to host a marquee bowl game.

 

[Dex]

I've seen Tony Levin with PG at least a half dozen times... I love his bass work. Funk fingers, using a bow... the guy is awesome.
Go search youtube for Steve Hackett with the late, great John Wetton for their version of "Afterglow", or "Firth of Fifth".

I have an album by Hackett called Genesis Revisited with Wetton. He had such a powerful voice.
Levin plays with the latest version of King Crimson. That band is phenomenal. Three drummers - one of whom plays the mellotron, Levin; early King Crimson member Mel Collins on sax and flute; Fripp of course; and the vocalist/second guitarist Jakko Jakszyk. They play a lot of very early Crimson, and Jakko does a nice job of bridging the difference between Greg Lake and John Wetton. They also turn Mel Collins loose on the baritone sax on a few songs - which to me is a special treat as you don't often hear the baritone sax in rock music.