St. Louis Moving AHL Affiliate to Kansas City?

[MiamiHockey]

Last that I recall, it is 16 out of 30 AHL teams that are owned by their NHL parents, so 47% aren't like that, if the number is still correct.

I would like to work at a place where it is moot about who pays for what. I think that is called a "government job". The taxpayers have an unlimited amount of money; right before the recall elections!

17 NHL franchises own their AHL franchises.
12 have affiliates.
1 (Carolina) has one owner in common.

Interestingly, of the 12 NHL franchises that don't outright own their AHL affiliate, 4 are very wealthy (Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philly) so it's not for a lack of resources.

Moot means it's really academic because the economics of the NHL are so vast now as compared to the AHL that most NHL franchises view the AHL as an investment rather than a separate profit/loss center. Yes, there are a few AHL franchises that are independently owned, but even some of those are really managed by the NHL club.

For example, Ken Holland is listed as the Griffins' GM, Ron Hextall as the Phantoms' GM, and Rockford's Mark Barnard is now listed as "Senior Director, Minor League Affiliations" rather than GM, which he used to be.

The point being, NHL franchises are not saddling their affiliate with the burden of paying contracts. The AHL team is an investment.

 

[210]

210...The National Hockey League only pays the salary of players that are under contracts to that team...ex...The St. Louis Blues do Not pay Brett Sterling of the Wolves nor do they pay Scooter Vaughn or anyone else signed by the Wolves...The Wolves pay those players and it's like that for ALL 30 NHL teams. The NHL teams only pay the players that are signed by them and 1 of their 50 allowed contracts, no matter what league the player is in...to do otherwise would be in direct violation of the CBA and would result in fines being accessed to the NHL team for being over the contract limit.

I stand by my previous comments as being accurate.

 

[royals119]

In the 2015-2016 ECHL season, if a player on a two-way AHL/ECHL contract was sent down to an ECHL team, that player counted against the ECHL cap. Richard Matvichuk told us how much it was, but I can't remember now. I want to say $800/week, but I'm not sure that's correct. Anyway, Matvichuk told us guys sent down from the AHL caused a cap headache because they sometimes had to whack $25 or $50 off someone else's pay for the week to get under the weekly cap. The Mavericks developed in-house software to account for those deductions, so they could make it up to that player later in the season when they had the cap space.

The ECHL team pays the first $525 of an AHL contracted player's salary, and that's the salary cap hit for the player. The rest of the player's salary is the responsibility of the assigning team.

Now granted I'm not close to a salary cap guru, I'm not sure how an assigned player would cause any headaches as the $525/week cap hit would be below the $600-ish/week average ECHL player salary.

210 is correct, the ECHL team's cap hit for a contracted player assigned from the NHL or AHL is $525, which is less than the average salary for the league. Assuming the player is a top line quality player the ECHL team is getting a bargain. Even if he turns out to be a third liner, he isn't going to hurt the team's cap position.

The problem for the ECHL team is that they may not keep that player, so they want to try to also keep all their ECHL contracted players on the team so they aren't left shorthanded when that player gets called back up. That is where the cap maneuvering comes in - adjusting other contracts to stay under the cap, and they raising those players salaries again when the team has cap room, or moving players on and off the reserve list or IR so they don't count toward the cap. The ECHL cap is calculated weekly, and contracts can be adjusted week to week as well. Players who join the team for just one or two games in a week, or spend part of a week on reserve would be pro-rated toward the cap. So it is quite complicated and somewhat time consuming for the teams to submit their weekly cap report. Probably a lot more work than what the former CHL teams had to do in that league.

AHL teams don't have these issues since there is no salary cap, and the NHL team is paying all the salaries in most cases. In the case of the Flyers/Phantoms the press release will usually read "The Flyers have signed player x to an AHL contract".

 

[GareFan18]

I am not sure where or why people on this board keep thinking a team can just move up from the ECHL to the AHL or from the AHL to the ECHL.

Right now, the Blues DO NOT own an AHL franchise license so all this talk is moot/speculation.

In 2017-2018, there will be 31 NHL franchises. Dave Andrews has said he wants the AHL to have parity with the NHL, therefore, the AHL may expand to 31 franchises.

There are many scenarios in which Kansas City could become the 31st AHL franchise.
-Lamar Hunt, Jr.'s organization, Loretto Sports Ventures, could apply to be the 31st AHL franchise and relinquish his membership in the ECHL. I don't know if he has a contract with the ECHL or if there would be an exit fee to the ECHL.
-It is rumored that Lamar Hunt, Jr. may buy in and become a minority owner of the Blues. In this case, Mr. Hunt would own a portion of the Blues and the AHL franchise, under the Blues umbrella. Again, he would have to relinquish his franchise in the ECHL.

The point is absolutely NOT moot.

However, the people I talked to at the Mavs say that there is nothing to this rumor. Yes, of course, there could be some truth to it and the Mavs' simply don't want to talk about it. As I said in another post, we'll find out when minor league hockey silly season starts. How many times has it taken until May to confirm or deny AHL franchise movement?

 

[Mike Jones]

...the people I talked to at the Mavs say that there is nothing to this rumor. Yes, of course, there could be some truth to it and the Mavs' simply don't want to talk about it.

I wonder if there are two separate things happening here. Once Hunt establishes the AHL franchise and finalizes the affiliation he could fold the Mavs' ECHL franchise and transfer staff over*. One part of his operation may not know what the other side is doing. This may be why Mavs staff don't know anything about what's cooking behind the scenes.

*On the surface the Mavs appear to be a well run franchise and if that is indeed the case then their front office people deserve first crack at front office jobs with the new entity.

 

[210]

In 2017-2018, there will be 31 NHL franchises. Dave Andrews has said he wants the AHL to have parity with the NHL, therefore, the AHL may expand to 31 franchises.

There are many scenarios in which Kansas City could become the 31st AHL franchise.
-Lamar Hunt, Jr.'s organization, Loretto Sports Ventures, could apply to be the 31st AHL franchise and relinquish his membership in the ECHL. I don't know if he has a contract with the ECHL or if there would be an exit fee to the ECHL.
-It is rumored that Lamar Hunt, Jr. may buy in and become a minority owner of the Blues. In this case, Mr. Hunt would own a portion of the Blues and the AHL franchise, under the Blues umbrella. Again, he would have to relinquish his franchise in the ECHL.

The point is absolutely NOT moot.

However, the people I talked to at the Mavs say that there is nothing to this rumor. Yes, of course, there could be some truth to it and the Mavs' simply don't want to talk about it. As I said in another post, we'll find out when minor league hockey silly season starts. How many times has it taken until May to confirm or deny AHL franchise movement?

No, he would not.

 

[GareFan18]

No, he would not.

Please explain.
He's not going to own an ECHL, USHL and AHL franchise (or, at least part of an AHL franchise).

 

[Captain Crash]

Please explain.
He's not going to own an ECHL, USHL and AHL franchise (or, at least part of an AHL franchise).

He has many options beyond simply to "relinquish" the franchise back to he league. He could:
(1) Keep it in KC and operate it alongside the other two (unlikely as you point out)
(2) Sell it to someone else that wants to keep it in KC
(3) Sell it to someone who wants to relocate it (Portland for example).
(4) Keep it but relocate it himself (perhaps to a not-so-distant market where he can align it with his AHL franchise)

 

[Woo Hockey]

Please explain.
He's not going to own an ECHL, USHL and AHL franchise (or, at least part of an AHL franchise).

Pretty sure he means that he will not be forced to relinquish his ECHL franchise to the league or to the Blues ownership group.

He can still own his ECHL team and still have a stake in a completely different franchise in a different league.

What would be preventing him from doing that?

 

[210]

Please explain.
He's not going to own an ECHL, USHL and AHL franchise (or, at least part of an AHL franchise).

He could if he wanted to. Heck, if he wanted to he could have them all play in the same building.

Granted he probably wouldn't do that, but there are no rules in the AHL or ECHL preventing him from doing so...and while I have no idea what the rules are for the USHL in this area, I suspect they'll do whatever Hunt wants.

 

[GareFan18]

He has many options beyond simply to "relinquish" the franchise back to he league. He could:
(1) Keep it in KC and operate it alongside the other two (unlikely as you point out)
(2) Sell it to someone else that wants to keep it in KC
(3) Sell it to someone who wants to relocate it (Portland for example).
(4) Keep it but relocate it himself (perhaps to a not-so-distant market where he can align it with his AHL franchise)

1.) won't happen
2.) Jeebus. When Russ Parker put the Blades up for sale in the late 90s, it took forever for us to find an owner. The owner they found was the DeVos', which sucked. The DeVos' ended the affiliation with the Sharks, went independent, tried to move the franchise to OKC, then shut it down when the IHL folded. We're lucky Lamar Hunt, Jr. decided to get involved in hockey. He admits he wasn't much of a hockey fan when he bought the Mavericks. He just saw hockey in KC as a growth opportunity -- much like when his family were early adopters of the MLS. He's the savior we hockey fans in KC have been wishing for for nearly 20 years. There is no one else.
3.) True.
4.) Maybe. The problem is that I don't think there is a not-so-distant market that is undeserved. OKC, maybe?

If all of this happens, which I doubt it will, I think Lamar sells the rights to the ECHL franchise. Anyway...he's a good dude. Any fan of minor league hockey should be glad he's involved.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

In 2017-2018, there will be 31 NHL franchises. Dave Andrews has said he wants the AHL to have parity with the NHL, therefore, the AHL may expand to 31 franchises.

There are many scenarios in which Kansas City could become the 31st AHL franchise.
-Lamar Hunt, Jr.'s organization, Loretto Sports Ventures, could apply to be the 31st AHL franchise and relinquish his membership in the ECHL. I don't know if he has a contract with the ECHL or if there would be an exit fee to the ECHL.
-It is rumored that Lamar Hunt, Jr. may buy in and become a minority owner of the Blues. In this case, Mr. Hunt would own a portion of the Blues and the AHL franchise, under the Blues umbrella. Again, he would have to relinquish his franchise in the ECHL.

The point is absolutely NOT moot.

However, the people I talked to at the Mavs say that there is nothing to this rumor. Yes, of course, there could be some truth to it and the Mavs' simply don't want to talk about it. As I said in another post, we'll find out when minor league hockey silly season starts. How many times has it taken until May to confirm or deny AHL franchise movement?

I wonder if there are two separate things happening here. Once Hunt establishes the AHL franchise and finalizes the affiliation he could fold the Mavs' ECHL franchise and transfer staff over*. One part of his operation may not know what the other side is doing. This may be why Mavs staff don't know anything about what's cooking behind the scenes.

*On the surface the Mavs appear to be a well run franchise and if that is indeed the case then their front office people deserve first crack at front office jobs with the new entity.

These points are moot (of little or no practical value, meaning, or relevance; purely academic since Hunt DOES NOT OWN AN AHL FRANCHISE.

Sure he may apply for the 31st one so may 12 or more other teams. So may some independent owners.

Everyone on here talks as if Hunt owns a franchise and this is what is going to happen.

There is no practical value in this discussion, it is purely academic, speculative.

And I would guess that the AHL is going to first offer the 31st license to the owners of Las Vegas as they are the reason for the eventual 31st franchise.

So, moot it is.

 

[Captain Crash]

There is no practical value in this discussion, it is purely academic, speculative.

Isn't that exactly what makes it worth discussing? If we already knew who owned it and where it would end up, there would be a lot less to discuss. Instead we talk of the speculation, which don't forget is based on reports coming from fairly credible sources. If all speculation was moot, message boards like this would be pretty much pointless.

And I would guess that the AHL is going to first offer the 31st license to the owners of Las Vegas as they are the reason for the eventual 31st franchise.

So, moot it is.

Interesting speculation for what is apparently a moot point! But let's continue the speculation: I'm not sure why that makes Vegas any worthier than any other NHL ownership group. In fact it may be discouraging to them since they won't have any prospects to place in it, and, more importantly, they have much less experience running a hockey franchise than any established ownership group.

On the flip side of this, Vegas may not want a team right off the bat because (1) they are sinking a ton of money and resources into an NHL team and may want to wait to add more investment, (2) have a lot on their plate with starting a major league franchise from scratch and would be too spread thin to start a minor league team from scratch as well, and (3) back once again to the fact that they don't actually have prospects to fill an AHL line-up with. It actually would make a ton of sense for Vegas to align with an independent AHL team with experienced ownership, and St. Louis leaving Chicago would just so happen to conveniently open up jsut such a scenario.

 

[adsfan]

1.) won't happen
2.) Jeebus. When Russ Parker put the Blades up for sale in the late 90s, it took forever for us to find an owner. The owner they found was the DeVos', which sucked. The DeVos' ended the affiliation with the Sharks, went independent, tried to move the franchise to OKC, then shut it down when the IHL folded. We're lucky Lamar Hunt, Jr. decided to get involved in hockey. He admits he wasn't much of a hockey fan when he bought the Mavericks. He just saw hockey in KC as a growth opportunity -- much like when his family were early adopters of the MLS. He's the savior we hockey fans in KC have been wishing for for nearly 20 years. There is no one else.
3.) True.
4.) Maybe. The problem is that I don't think there is a not-so-distant market that is undeserved. OKC, maybe?

If all of this happens, which I doubt it will, I think Lamar sells the rights to the ECHL franchise. Anyway...he's a good dude. Any fan of minor league hockey should be glad he's involved.

Relative to the bolded portion: The Devos owned Grand Rapids, their "home team", since they are the owners of Amway Corp. The family or members of the family also owned the Orlando Solar Bears (IHL Champions the last season) and the Kansas City Blades.

The AHL rules only allow you to own one team, so the other two teams could not move to the AHL. That is why they weren't included in the I-6. The AHL rules forced a sale or a fold for Orlando and Kansas City.

I hope that KC gets a team. They were good rivals with Milwaukee.

 

[GareFan18]

Relative to the bolded portion: The Devos owned Grand Rapids, their "home team", since they are the owners of Amway Corp. The family or members of the family also owned the Orlando Solar Bears (IHL Champions the last season) and the Kansas City Blades.

The AHL rules only allow you to own one team, so the other two teams could not move to the AHL. That is why they weren't included in the I-6. The AHL rules forced a sale or a fold for Orlando and Kansas City.

I hope that KC gets a team. They were good rivals with Milwaukee.

I'm well aware of all of this since I went through it.

It doesn't dismiss the fact the DeVos' were bad stewards of the Blades franchise. The Parkers were good to KC. The DeVos'...not so much. They DID try to move the team. They DID sever the relationship with the Sharks and create a rudderless "Independent" IHL franchise. The DeVos may be fine in their hometown of Grand Rapids and "adopted" hometown of Orlando, but, not so much here in KC.

 

[GareFan18]

Nope.
https://twitter.com/pwilliamsNHL/status/826079006671855616

PATRICK WILLIAMS
‏@pwilliamsNHL

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Andrews: #AHL not going to Kansas City next season. #AHL

 

[Tommy Hawk]

And Andrews always tells the truth, though in this case he probably is.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

At this point the only way this is possible is if the Blues buy an AHL team and move them there.

But there are currently no AHL teams for sale.

I really want Vegas and the Wolves to be affiliates though, it'd make sense transportation wise and because the Chicago Wolves usually have players on AHL contracts it shouldn't be a problem at all for Vegas.

 

[axecrew]

So tell me...Do you naysayers believe me now?????

 

[Tommy Hawk]

So tell me...Do you naysayers believe me now?????

I believe Reverend Axe!!!

 

[WolfKeeper]

In axecrew I trust.