(Son of) Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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Though that 67/68 crop of defencemen was not exactly stout.

Scoring leaders:
Mike McMahon Jr. - 47
Ted Green - 43
Gary Bergman - 41

+/- Leaders:
Dallas Smith - +33
JC Tremblay - +29
Bobby Orr - +28
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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Where I'm at right now...

Gretzky vs Orr...I've seen enough evidence presented to suspect that Orr was probably slightly more valuable on a per-game basis at his peak in the early 1970s. If you expand this to include the entire prime period of both players (and basically we can boil this down to Orr's career compared to Gretzky's Oilers career) I'm less certain that any advantage still exists for Orr. If it's a dead heat, I think playoffs tips the scale to Gretzky. Two extra Cup wins and a little more substance outside of those wins as well. Not a lot, but when it's this close you have to consider every detail. So all things considered, I think Orr vs Oilers Gretzky could reasonably be classed as too close to call. That leaves Kings Gretzky as the final tipping point. While I don't think it adds a lot to his case, it certainly adds something. It's enough for me to feel comfortable ranking Gretzky over Orr as it stands at this moment.

Gretzky vs Howe...I do believe Oilers Gretzky reached a higher level of performance that peak Howe. Gordie certainly had the more well-rounded game, but he needs those points in his favour just to make it close. Gretzky was so overwhelmingly good offensively in the 80's that he was able to out-score the deficiencies in other areas of his game. There were a couple moments when he didn't (1982, 1986), but Howe has a couple playoffs in the 50's that I think he'd take a do-over on as well. What makes this a close call for me is just how good Howe was in the 60's, both regular season and playoffs. While I don't feel Gretzky's post-Edmonton career really adds that much to his legacy, Howe's post-peak career adds a ton. After age 30, I don't think there's any question that you'd rather have Howe than Gretzky. Is that enough to push Howe above Gretzky? It has me thinking, for sure. Gretzky still has great moments later in his career, just not Howe's sustained uninterupted excellence. The 1993 playoffs, and the ability to lead the NHL in assists as late as 1997 and 1998 in a completely different environment than he played in a decade previous are late career highlights. I'm leaning Gretzky, but still undecided.

Howe vs Orr...I'm sold that Orr's per game impact was greater than Howe's. But if Gretzky is bringing a knife to a gun fight in a longevity argument against Howe, Orr is unfortunately bringing a white flag. It's just too hard for me to overlook what Howe did for 15 years longer, even if I give advantage to Orr for a seven year window. Howe giving an otherwise average roster multiple chances at the Stanley Cup throughout the 60's is what gives credence to the longevity argument. It's one thing to speculate about a player being great for a long time giving you more chances at winning more Stanley Cups, but we don't have to speculate with Howe. He absolutely kept Detroit relevant and competitive in an ultra-competitive decade that featured rosters full of all-time greats in Montreal, Toronto, and Chicago.

Lemieux vs the field...I can't see any reasonable argument that places him above Gretzky. You could maybe try to argue he was marginally better offensively in some isolated spurts. But the inconsistency in terms of availability makes this moot in a hurry, before even addressing the defensive cost of his offense, which appears to be greater than Gretzky's, backed by both the numbers and the recollections of observers.

A Lemieux over Howe argument is more conceivable, if for no reason other than they played decades apart so there is at least a seed of doubt. But I believe it is nonetheless flimsy. About the only thing Lemieux really has in his favour is offensive peak, and the gap there isn't as great as the numbers would initially make it look. There's been a lot of discussion on this over the years. Some of the research would have you thinking that Howe's early 50's peak was in fact at a Lemieux-level offensively. Other research presents a pretty good case that the early 50's was a bit of a perfect storm in terms of Howe being positioned to bury the competition in scoring. It has all been good discussion. However, I feel that even if Lemieux is accredited with the maximum peak offensive advantage over Howe that can reasonably be argued, it is still not enough to bridge the gap everywhere else. Unfortunately we don't have the plus/minus data from the 50's available. But absolutely every contemporary account agrees that Howe was a strong 200-foot player. His imposing physical presence is raved about. There's enough circumstantial evidence that I can comfortably conclude that if Lemieux's peak years were better than Howe's, the gap is no larger than the gap between Orr and Howe's peak years. And as I wrote above, all those extra great seasons Howe produced pushes him past Orr for me. Naturally it must also push him past Lemieux.

Lemieux vs Orr is a different animal, as both had short careers in terms of games played. Lemieux lasted much longer, but also missed enormous chunks of games, even full seasons, in his prime. Orr had a short career, but scores much higher on the reliability chart. He didn't miss that many games between 1969-1976. Lemeiux's list of missed games/seasons needs no detailed recounting. Given the all-around greatness and 200-foot impact of Orr, I don't see any good argument that would have Lemieux better on a per-game basis, peak or prime. And while it may seem illogical to give a longevity advantage to a player who was essentially done at 26 versus one who played games at age 40, I'm giving it to Orr for the reliability reasons outlined above.

Still open to more arguments until the voting is closed.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Interesting, I had always wondered the context of the 68 season for Orr. Played barely half the games, wasn't near as dominant offensively as he would be a couple seasons later, but still wins the Norris and AS-1.

Do they split the votes for all awards at the 1/2 way mark, or just the Hart?

Everything was split by halves. Hart, Norris, AS votes.
 

Dr John Carlson

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Dec 21, 2011
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Voted early. Wanted to wait as long as possible but wasn't sure that I would be able to send it in tomorrow or tonight.

Ultimately kept the same order that I had them on my Round 1 list. Not enough arguments between non-Big 4 players to change any of them and decided eventually to keep Orr ahead of Howe. Really could've gone either way on those two... but my gut tells me that Gretzky and Orr are the two best players to ever play, and I didn't feel comfortable having anybody ahead of either of them. Enjoyed reading the discussions regarding Orr/Howe.
 
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Nathaniel Skywalker

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Oct 18, 2013
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Where I'm at right now...

Gretzky vs Orr...I've seen enough evidence presented to suspect that Orr was probably slightly more valuable on a per-game basis at his peak in the early 1970s. If you expand this to include the entire prime period of both players (and basically we can boil this down to Orr's career compared to Gretzky's Oilers career) I'm less certain that any advantage still exists for Orr. If it's a dead heat, I think playoffs tips the scale to Gretzky. Two extra Cup wins and a little more substance outside of those wins as well. Not a lot, but when it's this close you have to consider every detail. So all things considered, I think Orr vs Oilers Gretzky could reasonably be classed as too close to call. That leaves Kings Gretzky as the final tipping point. While I don't think it adds a lot to his case, it certainly adds something. It's enough for me to feel comfortable ranking Gretzky over Orr as it stands at this moment.

Gretzky vs Howe...I do believe Oilers Gretzky reached a higher level of performance that peak Howe. Gordie certainly had the more well-rounded game, but he needs those points in his favour just to make it close. Gretzky was so overwhelmingly good offensively in the 80's that he was able to out-score the deficiencies in other areas of his game. There were a couple moments when he didn't (1982, 1986), but Howe has a couple playoffs in the 50's that I think he'd take a do-over on as well. What makes this a close call for me is just how good Howe was in the 60's, both regular season and playoffs. While I don't feel Gretzky's post-Edmonton career really adds that much to his legacy, Howe's post-peak career adds a ton. After age 30, I don't think there's any question that you'd rather have Howe than Gretzky. Is that enough to push Howe above Gretzky? It has me thinking, for sure. Gretzky still has great moments later in his career, just not Howe's sustained uninterupted excellence. The 1993 playoffs, and the ability to lead the NHL in assists as late as 1997 and 1998 in a completely different environment than he played in a decade previous are late career highlights. I'm leaning Gretzky, but still undecided.

Howe vs Orr...I'm sold that Orr's per game impact was greater than Howe's. But if Gretzky is bringing a knife to a gun fight in a longevity argument against Howe, Orr is unfortunately bringing a white flag. It's just too hard for me to overlook what Howe did for 15 years longer, even if I give advantage to Orr for a seven year window. Howe giving an otherwise average roster multiple chances at the Stanley Cup throughout the 60's is what gives credence to the longevity argument. It's one thing to speculate about a player being great for a long time giving you more chances at winning more Stanley Cups, but we don't have to speculate with Howe. He absolutely kept Detroit relevant and competitive in an ultra-competitive decade that featured rosters full of all-time greats in Montreal, Toronto, and Chicago.

Lemieux vs the field...I can't see any reasonable argument that places him above Gretzky. You could maybe try to argue he was marginally better offensively in some isolated spurts. But the inconsistency in terms of availability makes this moot in a hurry, before even addressing the defensive cost of his offense, which appears to be greater than Gretzky's, backed by both the numbers and the recollections of observers.

A Lemieux over Howe argument is more conceivable, if for no reason other than they played decades apart so there is at least a seed of doubt. But I believe it is nonetheless flimsy. About the only thing Lemieux really has in his favour is offensive peak, and the gap there isn't as great as the numbers would initially make it look. There's been a lot of discussion on this over the years. Some of the research would have you thinking that Howe's early 50's peak was in fact at a Lemieux-level offensively. Other research presents a pretty good case that the early 50's was a bit of a perfect storm in terms of Howe being positioned to bury the competition in scoring. It has all been good discussion. However, I feel that even if Lemieux is accredited with the maximum peak offensive advantage over Howe that can reasonably be argued, it is still not enough to bridge the gap everywhere else. Unfortunately we don't have the plus/minus data from the 50's available. But absolutely every contemporary account agrees that Howe was a strong 200-foot player. His imposing physical presence is raved about. There's enough circumstantial evidence that I can comfortably conclude that if Lemieux's peak years were better than Howe's, the gap is no larger than the gap between Orr and Howe's peak years. And as I wrote above, all those extra great seasons Howe produced pushes him past Orr for me. Naturally it must also push him past Lemieux.

Lemieux vs Orr is a different animal, as both had short careers in terms of games played. Lemieux lasted much longer, but also missed enormous chunks of games, even full seasons, in his prime. Orr had a short career, but scores much higher on the reliability chart. He didn't miss that many games between 1969-1976. Lemeiux's list of missed games/seasons needs no detailed recounting. Given the all-around greatness and 200-foot impact of Orr, I don't see any good argument that would have Lemieux better on a per-game basis, peak or prime. And while it may seem illogical to give a longevity advantage to a player who was essentially done at 26 versus one who played games at age 40, I'm giving it to Orr for the reliability reasons outlined above.

Still open to more arguments until the voting is closed.
Good post. Interesting About Lemieux vs Orr when it comes to longevity. Lemieux did play 300+ more games than Orr and age 30 and beyond Lemieux managed to have great success at an age where Orr wasent even playing. 2 art Ross. A hart. A third and second hart finish two first team all stars. This should only add to his case against bobby. And a 88-96 Lemieux has to be right there on a per game basis with peak Orr and if not he’s not far off.

Top 3 Hart records are also easily in Lemieuxs favour. Though Orr is a d man but still
Lemieux 1,1,1,2,2,2,3
Orr. 1,1,1,3,3,3,3

Also interesting that Orr was finishing behind Esposito in hart voting looking at his third place finishes while Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice...
You could look at this and say that if Lemieux and Orr overlapped and were healthy could Orr beat out Lemieux?

Both have two smythes but aren’t Lemieuxs smythe performances better?

Food for thought
 
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bobholly39

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Good post. Interesting About Lemieux vs Orr when it comes to longevity. Lemieux did play 300+ more games than Orr and age 30 and beyond Lemieux managed to have great success at an age where Orr wasent even playing. 2 art Ross. A hart. A third and second hart finish two first team all stars. This should only add to his case against bobby. And a 88-96 Lemieux has to be right there on a per game basis with peak Orr and if not he’s not far off.

Top 3 Hart records are also easily in Lemieuxs favour. Though Orr is a d man but still
Lemieux 1,1,1,2,2,2,3
Orr. 1,1,1,3,3,3,3

Also interesting that Orr was finishing behind Esposito in hart voting looking at his third place finishes while Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice...
You could look at this and say that if Lemieux and Orr overlapped and were healthy could Orr beat out Lemieux?

Both have two smythes but aren’t Lemieuxs smythe performances better?

Food for thought

This actually is an interesting point. Can anyone comment on this?

The idea of a prime (let alone peak) Lemieux or Gretzky finishing #2 to hart in any season to a teammate seems very far fetched - it never even came close. Why did this happen with Orr?

From 1969 to 1975 the count is 4-3 Orr ahead of Esposito in hart voting. So it's not like it just happened once in a potentially off year for Orr or career year for Esposito - 3x Esposito topped Orr in perfectly full, healthy seasons at top form.
 
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BenchBrawl

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While we're discussing Hart finishes, during Gordie Howe's super 4-years peak, both Maurice Richard and Red Kelly* beat him in Hart voting 2 years out of 4.

*Kelly beat him one year and finished even for another

Of course this is probably because of the "most valuable" definition, but any thoughts and/or interpretation for this would be welcomed.

Hart Voting in Gordie Howe's 4 years peak

50-51
PlacePlayerVotesVote%1st2nd3rd
1Milt Schmidt4074.071042
2Maurice Richard2851.85545
3Red Kelly1120.37124
3Gordie Howe1120.37051
5Ted Kennedy814.81024
6Bert Olmstead611.11200
7Bill Quackenbush23.7010
8Al Rollins11.85001
8Roy Conacher11.85001
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
51-52
PlacePlayerVotesVote%1st2nd3rd
1Gordie Howe6277.5952
2Elmer Lach4657.53101
3Jim Henry1417.5204
4Terry Sawchuk1316.25115
4Milt Schmidt1316.25122
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
52-53
PlacePlayerVotesVote%1st2nd3rd
1Gordie Howe5864.44941
2Al Rollins2527.78331
3Red Kelly2527.78236
4Gerry McNeil1617.78301
5Ted Kennedy1213.33121
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
53-54
PlacePlayerVotesVote%1st2nd
1Al Rollins8030.535030
2Red Kelly7428.244034
3Maurice Richard4416.792024
4Gordie Howe3312.62211
5Harry Lumley3111.831021
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Good post. Interesting About Lemieux vs Orr when it comes to longevity. Lemieux did play 300+ more games than Orr and age 30 and beyond Lemieux managed to have great success at an age where Orr wasent even playing. 2 art Ross. A hart. A third and second hart finish two first team all stars. This should only add to his case against bobby. And a 88-96 Lemieux has to be right there on a per game basis with peak Orr and if not he’s not far off.

Top 3 Hart records are also easily in Lemieuxs favour. Though Orr is a d man but still
Lemieux 1,1,1,2,2,2,3
Orr. 1,1,1,3,3,3,3

Also interesting that Orr was finishing behind Esposito in hart voting looking at his third place finishes while Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice...
You could look at this and say that if Lemieux and Orr overlapped and were healthy could Orr beat out Lemieux?

Both have two smythes but aren’t Lemieuxs smythe performances better?

Food for thought

I tend to look at things more from a historically relevant seasons perspective when it comes to longevity. Orr comes in with 7 of these consecutively, missing a notable amount of games only once (but still played most of the year). Lemieux, despite playing in many more individual seasons, can really only match the overall total, and even that is being a bit generous. Give him 86, 88, 89, 96, and 97. And I'll give him 92 and 93 since he still played 70% or so of the games plus the playoffs. The extra games spread around a whole bunch of years where he missed significant portions of the schedule just don't add much for me in a comparison against players of Orr, Gretzky, and Howe caliber. 1988-1996 Lemieux probably isn't far off from 1969-75 Orr...the problem is he only played 65% of available games. Orr played 95%. That's very significant to me.

Are the top 5 Hart records easily in Lemieux's favour? That looks pretty close to me. I'll state that I'm probably lower on trophy-counting as a trump card than most. It's window dressing for me. And your next paragraph is a big reason why. Orr finished behind Esposito in Hart voting during a span where absolutely nobody, contemporary or after-the-fact, ever suggested that Esposito was the superior player.

Are Lemieux's Smythe performances better? No, I don't think so. General sentiment from the time seems to be that the Bruins could be stopped if a team managed to contain Orr. When he was out there dictating the play, there was no stopping him. Nobody managed to stop Orr in 1970 ad 1972, and nobody that I've seen has ever questioned that he was the playoff MVP. The same thing can be said about Lemieux in 1991 and 92. I'm not seeing a lot of reasons to suggest any of these four Cup winning/Smythe winning playoffs were better or worse than the others. If there's a case to be made, I'm all ears.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Good post. Interesting About Lemieux vs Orr when it comes to longevity. Lemieux did play 300+ more games than Orr and age 30 and beyond Lemieux managed to have great success at an age where Orr wasent even playing. 2 art Ross. A hart. A third and second hart finish two first team all stars. This should only add to his case against bobby. And a 88-96 Lemieux has to be right there on a per game basis with peak Orr and if not he’s not far off.

Top 3 Hart records are also easily in Lemieuxs favour. Though Orr is a d man but still
Lemieux 1,1,1,2,2,2,3
Orr. 1,1,1,3,3,3,3

Also interesting that Orr was finishing behind Esposito in hart voting looking at his third place finishes while Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice...
You could look at this and say that if Lemieux and Orr overlapped and were healthy could Orr beat out Lemieux?

Both have two smythes but aren’t Lemieuxs smythe performances better?

Food for thought

I'd say 66's Smythe's were a little better, but it's closer than the non-Smythe years. That's where Lemieux establishes some distance. Or if you lump in international play with playoffs.
 

Canadiens1958

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Are Lemieux's Smythe performances better? No, I don't think so. General sentiment from the time seems to be that the Bruins could be stopped if a team managed to contain Orr. When he was out there dictating the play, there was no stopping him. Nobody managed to stop Orr in 1970 ad 1972, and nobody that I've seen has ever questioned that he was the playoff MVP. The same thing can be said about Lemieux in 1991 and 92. I'm not seeing a lot of reasons to suggest any of these four Cup winning/Smythe winning playoffs were better or worse than the others. If there's a case to be made, I'm all ears.

Except Boston went 12-2 and 12-3 en route to the SC.

Pittsburgh went 16-8 and 16-5. Orr was more dominant without doubt.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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From rookie year to 1993 Lemieux plays 80% of his games. Orr played 90% from rookie year to 1975, though it should be noted that Orr's missed time is earlier when he was less valuable than his peak, so that helps him over Lemieux missing prime time like most of 1991 (still a successful year overall, playoffs considered).

That being said, Lemieux's prime coincided with the tail end of Gretzky, and Orr was fortunate to avoid that. Again, Lemieus has a Ross-worthy, Hart-calibre year in 1986 which is underrated because of Gretzky. (Even Orr's 1970 would lose a lot of shine if some other guy happened to drop a 180 point year when he scored 120.)

From 1986-93, Lemieux likely wins the Hart in 1986, possibly 1987, 1988, 1989, a Smythe in 1991 and 1992, and the Hart again in 1993. He wins the Ross in 1986, probably 1987, 1988, 1989, 1992, and 1993.

Then he adds on 1996, 1997, and 2001 which is at least on par with Orr's first Norris year (if not better).

Add that to Lemieux being a better playoff performer, and that's his case for #3.
 
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Captain Bowie

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Top 3 Hart records are also easily in Lemieuxs favour. Though Orr is a d man but still
Lemieux 1,1,1,2,2,2,3
Orr. 1,1,1,3,3,3,3

How do you figure easily? That is about as close as it gets. 7 top 3's each.

Also interesting that Orr was finishing behind Esposito in hart voting looking at his third place finishes while Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice...
If it's relevant that Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice, then it's also relevant than he also finished second to Sakic in '01 and third to Kariya/Hasek in '97.

Orr's close Hart finishes were 3rd to Espo/Beliveau, 3rd to Clarke/Espo, 3rd to Espo/Parent, 3rd to Clarke/Vachon.

You can decide which is more impressive, but please be complete with you argument/statistics.

Both have two smythes but aren’t Lemieuxs smythe performances better?

That's an interesting thought, feel free to present the evidence that proves your hypothesis.
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

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How do you figure easily? That is about as close as it gets. 7 top 3's each.


If it's relevant that Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice, then it's also relevant than he also finished second to Sakic in '01 and third to Kariya/Hasek in '97.

Orr's close Hart finishes were 3rd to Espo/Beliveau, 3rd to Clarke/Espo, 3rd to Espo/Parent, 3rd to Clarke/Vachon.

You can decide which is more impressive, but please be complete with you argument/statistics.



That's an interesting thought, feel free to present the evidence that proves your hypothesis.
They both have 7 top 3’s and three wins overall. But Lemieux has three second place finishes (two to Gretzky) that’s quite significant while Orr has 0. Also Lemieux finishing third in 97 against the best goalie of all time is great competion. Both had great players to compete with but Lemieux had tougher.

When you think about domination stats. Eye test, grace etc I don’t think it gets better than a 91-92 Lemieux in the playoffs. He went full Gretzky. Broke his hand and returned to score 15 points in 7 games. IMO outmatches orr.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Except Boston went 12-2 and 12-3 en route to the SC.

Pittsburgh went 16-8 and 16-5. Orr was more dominant without doubt.
That's precisely what one might conclude if one didn't review the actual box-scores of the series. Before the above was posted, I looked at this very thing- and noted that during Pittsburgh's first SC-run, they had significant stretches of the playoff run where they were without Tom Barrasso and Paul Coffey. Their #1 Goalie and their #1 D. Pretty big losses, huh? For a while, Pittsburgh had someone named Frank Pietrangelo in net. Now of course I know that for Pittsburgh's Final for Cup #1, they didn't seem to have that tough of an out in the North Stars- but in the parallel example, Boston had the opportunity to administer buri buri whipping torture to a St Louis Blues team that wouldn't have even made the stinking playoffs if they had been in the other division.

There are reasons to prefer Orr to Lemieux (e.g.: "he's the greatest player I ever saw on the ice... and :tmi: I don't care that he contributed nothing of consequence after 1976"). To try to claim that he's a more dominant playoff performer on account of the fact that his TEAM did things like post a sporty 8-0 playoff record against the hapless, combined 19-games-under-500 Blues teams in their Cup runs is NOT a particularly legitimate one.
 
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bobholly39

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If it's relevant that Lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky twice, then it's also relevant than he also finished second to Sakic in '01 and third to Kariya/Hasek in '97.

Orr's close Hart finishes were 3rd to Espo/Beliveau, 3rd to Clarke/Espo, 3rd to Espo/Parent, 3rd to Clarke/Vachon.

I actually disagree quite strongly with this statement. Once you look past name recognition:

In 2001 Lemieux finished 2nd in hart voting vs a pretty great season by Sakic, but mostly Lemieux only played half the games. He was also 35, coming out of retirement. The fact that he finished twice in Hart is actually extremely spectacular.

In 97 - yes he lost fair and square. But this was the tail end of Lemieux's prime, his first real year where he was beaten fair and square to an end season award by someone other than Gretzky, in a mostly full season. And - let's not forget peak Hasek might have a case for 5th best peak ever (or more). So strong competition. If you remove Hasek completely from the equation - it's possible Lemieux beats out Kariya, though of course impossible to say.

This isn't the same as Orr losing out hart votes - and being beaten by a few players - smack in the middle of his best (and full) seasons. Also - Beliveau was past his peak when he beat out Orr, so maybe if a 1956 Beliveau had beaten out Orr to a hart it looks less bad on Orr. But 13 years later - not sure you'd expect Orr to finish behind Beliveau in Hart.


Oh one more thing about Gretzky. I think we generally put an asterisk next to Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr at peak value - or at least i believe we should. Finishing 2nd in scoring to peak Gretzky for example should be worth the same as an art ross to another player in comparisons - or close enough. Hart voting should be the same idea. This works both ways for Lemieux/Gretzky the years Lemieux beat Gretzky. So I think it is somewhat significant Lemieux was finishing right behind Gretzky in some cases
 

Captain Bowie

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They both have 7 top 3’s and three wins overall. But Lemieux has three second place finishes (two to Gretzky) that’s quite significant while Orr has 0. Also Lemieux finishing third in 97 against the best goalie of all time is great competion. Both had great players to compete with but Lemieux had tougher.

I don't share your view that Lemieux's Hart competition was significantly tougher. As shown, Orr lost to Prime Espo (top 25 all-time player) multiple times, late career Beliveau (top 10 player) and Prime Bobby Clarke (top 25 player) multiple times. And it is a statistical fact that it is harder to finish top 3 as a defenceman.

Lemieux won 1 Hart and came 2nd twice while Gretzky was relevant to the Hart voting. When he had his other 4 top 3 finishes (including 2 of 3 wins), his top competition was Prime Joe Sakic (top 25), Prime Dominik Hasek (top 15), Prime Paul Kariya (probably outside top 100), Late career Messier (top 30ish).

I don't see a huge advantage for either player for who they had to win over.

When you think about domination stats. Eye test, grace etc I don’t think it gets better than a 91-92 Lemieux in the playoffs. He went full Gretzky. Broke his hand and returned to score 15 points in 7 games. IMO outmatches orr.

I get that this is your opinion, but if you hope to sway anyone else's, you need to show more evidence than that.
 
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Nathaniel Skywalker

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I don't share your view that Lemieux's Hart competition was significantly tougher. As shown, Orr lost to Prime Espo (top 25 all-time player) multiple times, late career Beliveau (top 10 player) and Prime Bobby Clarke (top 25 player) multiple times. And it is a statistical fact that it is harder to finish top 3 as a defenceman.

Lemieux won 1 Hart and came 2nd twice while Gretzky was relevant to the Hart voting. When he had his other 4 top 3 finishes (including 2 of 3 wins), his top competition was Prime Joe Sakic (top 25), Prime Dominik Hasek (top 15), Prime Paul Kariya (probably outside top 100), Late career Messier (top 30ish).

I don't see a huge advantage for either player for who they had to win over.



I get that this is your opinion, but if you hope to sway anyone else's, you need to show more evidence than that.
The difference is Gretzky Gretzky and Gretzky. Gretzky and Lemieux only being 5 years apart and overlapping is a huge anamoly. Two of the four greatest players who ever lived had to compete against each other for a good 7 years. Of course this will affect there accomplishments. Lemieux would have 5 Hart’s and 7 art ross trophies without Gretzky. That looks a lot better than 3 and 6 does it not? Lemieux is punished for this and my point is it should be the opposite.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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16,548
Voted. Went back to Round 1, basically. Couldn't resolve myself to place Howe above Orr. Couldn't resolve myself to put Harvey, Beliveau and Roy above Lemieux either.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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Except Boston went 12-2 and 12-3 en route to the SC.

Pittsburgh went 16-8 and 16-5. Orr was more dominant without doubt.

This is too simplistic. Strength of opponent, teammate injury/goaltending situations, 4-round versus 3-round considerations all have to be examined.

It should also be noted that Pittsburgh was 0-1 without Lemieux in 1991 and 3-2 without him in 1992. 13-3 with Lemieux in the lineup in 1992 is comparable to Boston's winning% in 1970 or 1972.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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The difference is Gretzky Gretzky and Gretzky. Gretzky and Lemieux only being 5 years apart and overlapping is a huge anamoly. Two of the four greatest players who ever lived had to compete against each other for a good 7 years. Of course this will affect there accomplishments. Lemieux would have 5 Hart’s and 7 art ross trophies without Gretzky. That looks a lot better than 3 and 6 does it not? Lemieux is punished for this and my point is it should be the opposite.

Sure, it looks better. But it doesn't actually change anything about the season. Lemieux scored 141 points in 1985-86 as Pittsburgh narrowly missed the playoffs in the Wales Conference, finishing 2nd in Hart voting. If eventual Hart-winner Gretzky broke his leg slipping on a banana peel in October of 1985 and missed the whole season, it changes absolutely nothing about Lemieux's season*. This is why I don't subscribe to the notion that winning a trophy/finishing runner up, etc. or finishing X-place in the scoring race has any clearly definable value. The performance or non-performance of others has a significant and ever-changing influence on these results.

*Just for any wise-guys in the room, yes it is possible that Gretzky being out the whole year creates an alternate set of league-wide team results that enables the Penguins to squeeze into the playoffs, rather than miss them by 2 points.
 
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