(Son of) Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[quoipourquoi]

Continued from here: Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 2nd at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 4th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, November 5th.


Vote 1 Candidates

• Bobby Hull
• Bobby Orr
• Doug Harvey
• Gordie Howe
• Jean Beliveau
• Mario Lemieux
• Maurice Richard
• Patrick Roy
• Ray Bourque
• Wayne Gretzky

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ugh, I know why you made another thread, but won't it be difficult for future readers to follow this thing if what is supposed to be a very focused discussion is split between 2 threads?

 

[quoipourquoi]

New thread. I’ll close this in 30 minutes in case anyone was in the middle of typing a post.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Not that I think it matters, but I found it interesting. Wayne Gretzky played 22 playoffs games against the Oilers. He scored 7 goals, 19 assists for 26 points.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm curious if any participants changed their order based on the discussions we've had so far. Anyone?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Rules is rules. I checked them last night in anticipation of this. Plus we have three more days, so it probably wasn’t going to be close to borderline.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm curious if any participants changed their order based on the discussions we've had so far. Anyone?

I came thisclose to Lemieux over Orr. I watched some Orr videos last night and I just can’t do it.

 

[blogofmike]

BTW, Gretzky's Kings lost to Messier's Oilers in 90 and 91 and then a Messier-less Oiler squad in 92 in the playoffs.

A Gretzky team also beat a Messier Oilers team.

An underdog Gretzky team has also beat a Montreal Canadiens team that was the best defensive team in the league. He played a lot against Larry Robinson (-9) and Serge Savard (-7).

In all playoff series where Gretzky's underdog team played a team with a better record (and home-ice), his teams had a better series winning percentage (10-6) than Orr's teams in general (9-6).

We can't cherry pick numbers and use them as anything meaningful.

You don't say...

In my case there was no cherry-picking. Orr's Big 4 peak is 1970-75. Those are all the games from Orr's best run that he missed. Ray Bourque was missed in a similar length of time to an extent that Orr was not.​

 

[MXD]

Rules is rules. I checked them last night in anticipation of this. Plus we have three more days, so it probably wasn’t going to be close to borderline.

There is so much useless shit on the first thread...

 

[quoipourquoi]

There is so much useless **** on the first thread...

I’m going to put together a Cliff’s Notes version after the completion of the project.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Voted

 

[Captain Bowie]

I’m going to put together a Cliff’s Notes version after the completion of the project.

I'd like to take this moment to thank you for all of the hard work you have put into this project, and for all the work that will be required to finish this thing off. And to do it with a sense of humour, you are a real gem.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'd like to take this moment to thank you for all of the hard work you have put into this project, and for all the work that will be required to finish this thing off. And to do it with a sense of humour, you are a real gem.

Agreed, thank you QPQ

 

[Captain Bowie]

Voted

Yeah, might as well. Nothing has convinced me to this point. The debate for #5 should be a good one though (and by extension, 6-10). I have Beliveau-Hull-Harvey, but it's extremely close. I don't see an argument for Richard or Bourque for #5, and though I had Patrick Roy at #10 on my initial list, I see an argument for him at #5, and I know a few people will be presenting it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yeah, might as well. Nothing has convinced me to this point. The debate for #5 should be a good one though (and by extension, 6-10). I have Beliveau-Hull-Harvey, but it's extremely close. I don't see an argument for Richard or Bourque for #5, and though I had Patrick Roy at #10 on my initial list, I see an argument for him at #5, and I know a few people will be presenting it.

I was indirectly convinced to put Howe over Orr by Sturminator, which I did.

TDMM almost convinced me to reconsider concerning Gretzky, but in the end I stuck to my guns.Still not sure I did the right thing.That's always the case when ranking the top trio.

 

[Iceman]

Wasn't the 1000 posts rule removed?

 

[BraveCanadian]

That's why I compare Orr's impact to Gretzky's in terms of team successes. The Bruins hadn't won a title in 30 years until Orr led them there. And then didn't win another title for nearly 40 years after he was gone.

This is a horrible argument. For example, who was it that knocked out that stacked Edmonton team (that could win the Cup without Gretzky) the year they lost Gretzky?

You're also completely ignoring the return the Oilers got FOR Gretzky which factored pretty heavily into their 1990 win.. both financially and on the ice.

 

[VanIslander]

... I would still love to find some newspaper or magazine articles from the late 70s/early 80s as to whether Howe or Orr was considered the GOAT at the time.

The 1980 Sports Illustrated article on Howe refers to him as the greatest player of all time.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Onward to Part 2 of Part 1 of Part 2!

 

[MXD]

Wasn't the 1000 posts rule removed?

Removed. Then reinstated.

 

[Iceman]

Removed. Then reinstated.

Zzzz

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm curious if any participants changed their order based on the discussions we've had so far. Anyone?

I moved Howe up to #2

And the player I had as 5 was not illegible this round so some reshuffling was done outside of the top 4

 

[Captain Bowie]

I was indirectly convinced to put Howe over Orr by Sturminator, which I did.

TDMM almost convinced me to reconsider concerning Gretzky, but in the end I stuck to my guns.Still not sure I did the right thing.That's always the case when ranking the top trio.

I moved Howe up to #2

And the player I had as 5 was not illegible this round so some reshuffling was done outside of the top 4

Cool! I'm glad to hear that. The whole discussion period would be kind of useless if no one ever adjusted their lists based on the evidence presented.

 

[VanIslander]

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!

Bears repeating.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not going to vote until the last minute because I am going to continue to research until the last minute. I see no advantage in voting early unless you just weren't going to be convinced no matter what, in which case, blehhh...(or if you weren't going to be around at voting time, of course)...