Post-Game Talk: Somewhat entertaining at least!

[Rzombo4 prez]

The problem there is that other GMs are able to see desperation when a team 'needs' to move a contract. That's where price gouging comes in.

With the cap era being so short, neither side of this argument really has much to argue on outside of the anecdotal. This is why many of us err on the side of percentages in terms of maximizing the chances of obtaining generational talent. Maybe it's just me, but I have yet to see a cogent post on why this method would be less likely to build a champion in terms of the Wings current direction.

I know the answer is typically found somewhere in the middle, but the problem with that is the fact that the Wings brass have given folks zero hope that the current cast can find a way there. There's a Trailer Park Boys quote that comes to mind here about leopards, but it's not suitable given the forum rules on safe words.

I most certainly am not suggesting that it is optimal to have a lot of really, really bad contracts on the books. It most certainly does have an impact on your leverage in the trade market. I personally don't like these contracts because I feel like they will suppress the demand for these players in the trade market. Perhaps Kenny just intends to eat salary if it comes to that. Bad contracts, however, have absolutely zero impact on the ability to acquire generational talent. That talent is not going to come to us in the trade market and is not going to come to us in a deal for picks wherein we take on another team's really bad contract. Generational talent is found at the very top of the first round. You get there through the standings and the draft lottery.

This may sound sad, but there is a very good chance that we don't have another generational talent until the next CBA. I know it doesn't look like this now, but our caps needs are only going to go down as we get worse.

 

[SoupNazi]

Cap hit & length doesn't matter. His cap hit has not and likely will not prevent the club from signing someone we want signed.

They absolutely do. That's why there are some Hawks fans who aren't particularly happy with Toews right now - his production doesn't match his cap hit and term.

 

[avssuc]

What did Bickell and david clarkson get paid?

That's not recent.

 

[Pavels Dog]

- And most importantly, the fact that they are in no position to gain futures by taking bad contracts in an effort to maximize chances that they acquire players worth more than $10 mil a year

I just hope no one thinks the Wings will ever be a team that takes cap dumps as long as the Illitches own them. We will be a cap ceiling team, almost no matter what.

 

[Dotter]

That's not recent.

post cap though, right?

How about Anders Lee? Not really a good comparison because he puts up less points than Abdelkader. He earns about 400k less than Abby.

36 year old Joel Ward is making about 3.3 million per year and is signed until he's 38. He only has 2 more points with 11 more games played.

They absolutely do. That's why there are some Hawks fans who aren't particularly happy with Toews right now - his production doesn't match his cap hit and term.

Yes they complain as bad as we do. I remember them mocking their GM and said he should be fired some time ago. Even their coach gets blasted from time to time. I guess that's what winning does to fans. Lol

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Got any recent comps? I know this might be tough because everyone like to argue the small stuff, but I'd like to see what moves you to make that statement.

Belesky. $4M AAV
Brouwer. $4.5M AAV
Abby. Roughly 4.25M AAV

Belesky is slightly worse, Brouwer slightly better.

That's what a physical forward who has scored 20 goals gets in this NHL.

E: Yes, Abby has a 7 year deal and they have 4. But the dollars are market value.

 

[avssuc]

post cap though, right?

How about Anders Lee? Not really a good comparison because he puts up less points than Abdelkader. He earns about 400k less than Abby.

36 year old Joel Ward is making about 3.3 million per year and is signed until he's 38. He only has 2 more points with 11 more games played.

Last year the Pens solidified what most NHL GMs already knew... don't overpay top 9 players while maximizing entry level deals. Can you find comps from the past 2 years?

 

[avssuc]

I most certainly am not suggesting that it is optimal to have a lot of really, really bad contracts on the books. It most certainly does have an impact on your leverage in the trade market. I personally don't like these contracts because I feel like they will suppress the demand for these players in the trade market. Perhaps Kenny just intends to eat salary if it comes to that. Bad contracts, however, have absolutely zero impact on the ability to acquire generational talent. That talent is not going to come to us in the trade market and is not going to come to us in a deal for picks wherein we take on another team's really bad contract. Generational talent is found at the very top of the first round. You get there through the standings and the draft lottery.

This may sound sad, but there is a very good chance that we don't have another generational talent until the next CBA. I know it doesn't look like this now, but our caps needs are only going to go down as we get worse.

When talking about futures, you never know how they might be packaged. A hypothetical 2nd round selection that was picked up for eating a bad contract might turn out to be the icing on the cake of a much larger trade to move up... or acquire a top prospect coming off an ELC that a team in a pinch can't afford. The flexibility really can't be denied.

 

[Dotter]

Last year the Pens solidified what most NHL GMs already knew... don't overpay top 9 players while maximizing entry level deals. Can you find comps from the past 2 years?

20 goal powerforwards are more unique than the run of the mill soft Euro Tatars. No I do not have comparables in the last 2 years.

Lucic puts up about 10 to 15 more points, recently signed 8 years and has a 6 million cap hit. And I think Lucic style will wear out his body sooner.

 

[avssuc]

Belesky. $4M AAV
Brouwer. $4.5M AAV
Abby. Roughly 4.25M AAV

Belesky is slightly worse, Brouwer slightly better.

That's what a physical forward who has scored 20 goals gets in this NHL.

E: Yes, Abby has a 7 year deal and they have 4. But the dollars are market value.

Which is why 99% of us are pissed. Term is supposed to lessen the average. Holland gave both. Crap deal, and none of those comp favorably.

 

[Dotter]

Which is why 99% of us are pissed. Term is supposed to lessen the average. Holland gave both. Crap deal, and none of those comp favorably.

Holland can trade him in 3 years if he wants to.

 

[Ezekial]

Holland can trade him in 3 years if he wants to.

It'll be pretty rough if his production remains stagnant. Hopefully Holland won't be making that call.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Holland can trade him in 3 years if he wants to.

Lol yeah sure.

 

[Frk It]

Yup, there's some bad contracts that have been moved. There's more bad contracts that haven't been moved.

This notion that bad contracts don't matter because you can move them whenever your want for nothing is hilarious.

 

[Claypool]

Yup, there's some bad contracts that have been moved. There's more bad contracts that haven't been moved.

This notion that bad contracts don't matter because you can move them whenever your want for nothing is hilarious.

When this team is relevant again a lot of these bad contracts people are worried about won't exist.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yup, there's some bad contracts that have been moved. There's more bad contracts that haven't been moved.

This notion that bad contracts don't matter because you can move them whenever your want for nothing is hilarious.

If the cap keeps going up, then there are going to be more teams willing to take bad contracts to meet the floor. We will see what the leagues response is to this as it becomes more and more clear.

 

[avssuc]

20 goal powerforwards are more unique than the run of the mill soft Euro Tatars. No I do not have comparables in the last 2 years.

Lucic puts up about 10 to 15 more points, recently signed 8 years and has a 6 million cap hit. And I think Lucic style will wear out his body sooner.

Abbs has missed 37 games over the past 4 years, Lucic just 4. Put differently, Abdelkader has missed as many games in the last week and change as Lucic has over the past 4 years.

Yea, durability and such!!!

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yup, there's some bad contracts that have been moved. There's more bad contracts that haven't been moved.

This notion that bad contracts don't matter because you can move them whenever your want for nothing is hilarious.

Whenever, for nothing? No. But I do believe it's easier than people on this board make it seem. Just because a contract is deemed 'bad' by hfboards doesn't mean GMs are trying to move them simply to get rid of them. But contracts that have had a potentially disastrous impact on a team's cap situation have more often than not been moved.

We're going to have a ton of cheap RFAs and ELCs on the team over the next 5-10 years. The cap structure will eventually shift back towards our core players taking up the majority of the cap space, it's a natural progression when our new core starts to take shape. But there may come a time in a few years when our veteran depth plays an important role and we're glad to have them. I see plenty of young teams around the league that would be much better off if they had a few guys like Abby/Helm/Nielsen/Glendening on the roster rather than icing a mix of high-end young talents together with scrap-heap UFA rentals or middling prospects.

 

[Winger98]

Whenever, for nothing? No. But I do believe it's easier than people on this board make it seem. Just because a contract is deemed 'bad' by hfboards doesn't mean GMs are trying to move them simply to get rid of them. But contracts that have had a potentially disastrous impact on a team's cap situation have more often than not been moved.

We're going to have a ton of cheap RFAs and ELCs on the team over the next 5-10 years. The cap structure will eventually shift back towards our core players taking up the majority of the cap space, it's a natural progression when our new core starts to take shape. But there may come a time in a few years when our veteran depth plays an important role and we're glad to have them. I see plenty of young teams around the league that would be much better off if they had a few guys like Abby/Helm/Nielsen/Glendening on the roster rather than icing a mix of high-end young talents together with scrap-heap UFA rentals or middling prospects.

What have teams had to package with those contracts they want to be rid of to make trades happen? People around here knocked Teravainen as not being that good but he'd be our fifth leading scorer among forwards. Would we be thrilled if we had to move someone like Nyquist with Gator just to get back second and third round picks?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Abbs has missed 37 games over the past 4 years, Lucic just 4. Put differently, Abdelkader has missed as many games in the last week and change as Lucic has over the past 4 years.

Yea, durability and such!!!

Lucic isn't the most fluid player though and him having played more games with that playing style doesn't mean his cliff isn't approaching swiftly.

The bigger argument there is Lucic is just a better hockey player in terms of everything except skating and some D aspects. It is a rough comparison, but I expect Lucic to have one of the worst contracts in hockey before it is all said and done. That did make more sense for Edmonton though in terms of why you do that deal if you're in their shoes.

 

[Frk It]

When this team is relevant again a lot of these bad contracts people are worried about won't exist.

I hope so. Although I guess that would suggest we won't be relevant again for 6-8 years?

If the cap keeps going up, then there are going to be more teams willing to take bad contracts to meet the floor. We will see what the leagues response is to this as it becomes more and more clear.

Aren't there less "cap floor teams" now than there has been in the past? The gap between highest paid and lowest paid teams seems smaller than ever.

And even if that was true, doesn't that open up more bad contracts around the league that could be moved, and make only the best bad contracts the ones that get moved?

 

[jkutswings]

Holland can trade him in 3 years if he wants to.

Whether he is completely untradeable, or was traded tomorrow, is separate from the fact that it's a bad contract.

 

[Dotter]

Whether he is completely untradeable, or was traded tomorrow, is separate from the fact that it's a bad contract.

I would argue below average. If it's a credit score, I'd call it a 649

That said, all NHL teams have 640 and under contracts on their team. Every team have poor contracts they have to eventually deal with.

 

[Claypool]

I hope so. Although I guess that would suggest we won't be relevant again for 6-8 years?

I'd say that's best-case scenario, especially for the folks who want them to tank.

 

[Frk It]

I'd say that's best-case scenario, especially for the folks who want them to tank.

Wouldn't not wanting to tank probably make it even longer?