So... Let's talk Konecny

[Striiker]

For the TK hate squad, a reminder of who he is, since apparently you guys don’t know.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Vigneault and Therrien imo are going to be guys that ride him hard for missing time the first mistake he gets. He’s put the x on his back.

I love TK and don’t get this situation. His contract shouldn’t be that hard of a deal to work out. I’m not huge on Fletcher but I can’t seem him low balling. Doesn’t seem like that kind of GM.

Wtf.

 

[Striiker]

Vigneault and Therrien imo are going to be guys that ride him hard for missing time the first mistake he gets. He’s put the x on his back.

I love TK and don’t get this situation. His contract shouldn’t be that hard of a deal to work out. I’m not huge on Fletcher but I can’t seem him low balling. Doesn’t seem like that kind of GM.

Wtf.

As I said before, the problem is rumored to be term instead of money.

 

[deadhead]

TK's agent is obviously asking for big money, you don't insist on a long-term deal to give the team a big discount.

Given the numbers thrown around with Laine, he probably thinks he can get $6-7M for TK.

If you figure 2x3.5 is fair for TK given the other bridges handed out, or 4x16, and $7M a year for two UFA years (TK would be worth $5-6M as a UFA right now but escalate 4 years from now), you end up with 6x5 for a long-term deal as his market rate. I suspect that's close to Fletcher's ceiling. Anything more he'd rather give a bridge and see how things work out with AV.

Note that Hayes got $7M off 42 ES points.
He's better on the PP than TK, he's a top PK scorer, he's much better defensively than TK.
Oh yeah, Hayes is also a center.

So if TK was a UFA he'd be worth no more than $5-6M a year right now, and that includes an adder for upside (he's not getting bigger or faster, he may get smarter, more disciplined and more skilled).

 

[FlyerNutter]

As I said before, the problem is rumored to be term instead of money.

I saw the term stuff.

It’s just weird. I never really expected any of this when it came to his contract. As a huge fan of the kid, I can also admit that some of his play at times is going to annoy his coaches.

He’s going to be in the doghouse before he even hits the ice. We know that’s likely to be true. I’m not really placing blame on TK or Fletcher here as I don’t know the details.

The reality of it all just f***ing sucks. It is frustrating to me that rumors have him still in Ontario. That’s asinine on his part.

 

[rinaldo]

As @FLYguy3911 said in another thread:

Giroux-Couturier-TK
JVR-Hayes-Lindblom
Farabee-Patrick-Voracek
Raffl-Frost-Laughton

That's such a great forward core...

define the word great

 

[blinds]

All the bold is wrong.

No wonder you’re so triggered by my description.

Typical Striiker response... "no you're wrong." Great discussion bud.

This is a bad take. TK was a better player at ES than Simmonds each of the last 2 years. Simmonds produced like a 4th liner at ES.

Also, he doesn't need an argument to be ahead of Voracek in the lineup. It's called balancing the lineup. Jake is capable of leading his own line and so he was on the "2nd line." Voracek still had more ES TOI than Konecny each of the last 2 seasons. He is our best RW.

I was comparing them as overall players. Simmonds being great on the PP deserves credit. Comparing their ES production isn't exactly apples to apples either when TK was playing with Couturier and Giroux who were having career years. I agree TK is the better ES player but as overall right wings during the last two years, they're comparable. My point is TK has been our 2nd/3rd best RW which is where his ice time expectations should be.

I agree with everything you're saying about Voracek and balanced lineups. My point is more about his ice time, which is exactly in line with his value to our lineup. There's no room for him to get top line ice time when Voracek is the one who should be getting those minutes. Konecny was 147th in ESTOI/GP among forwards, or squarely in the 2nd line average. Which is where he should be when competing with Voracek and Simmonds for RW TOI.

Look, TK is our 6th best forward. You could even argue a little lower if you like what Lindblom or Patrick bring with less ideal situations. In a vacuum, he should be getting middle 6 time and opportunity. On the Flyers, he's getting middle 6 time but opportunity with two top 30 forwards.

My point is his situation is better than he deserves (which is middle 6 opportunity), and any minor misuse doesn't outweigh getting to play on a line with Giroux and Couturier. Konecny has played in very favorable circumstances for someone in his situation.

 

[Striiker]

Typical Striiker response... "no you're wrong." Great discussion bud.



I was comparing them as overall players. Simmonds being great on the PP deserves credit. Comparing their ES production isn't exactly apples to apples either when TK was playing with Couturier and Giroux who were having career years. I agree TK is the better ES player but as overall right wings during the last two years, they're comparable. My point is TK has been our 2nd/3rd best RW which is where his ice time expectations should be.

I agree with everything you're saying about Voracek and balanced lineups. My point is more about his ice time, which is exactly in line with his value to our lineup. There's no room for him to get top line ice time when Voracek is the one who should be getting those minutes. Konecny was 147th in ESTOI/GP among forwards, or squarely in the 2nd line average. Which is where he should be when competing with Voracek and Simmonds for RW TOI.

Look, TK is our 6th best forward. You could even argue a little lower if you like what Lindblom or Patrick bring with less ideal situations. In a vacuum, he should be getting middle 6 time and opportunity. On the Flyers, he's getting middle 6 time but opportunity with two top 30 forwards.

My point is his situation is better than he deserves (which is middle 6 opportunity), and any minor misuse doesn't outweigh getting to play on a line with Giroux and Couturier. Konecny has played in very favorable circumstances for someone in his situation.

I didn't feel like wasting my time writing a real response to you. Based on your posts, this one and the one I responded to before, you have no concept of value or how Konecny should be used. All the bold was wrong, some hilariously so, and if I go point by point and correct you nothing will change.... so what's the point? It wouldn't be a discussion, it'd be me explaining that the moon isn't made of cheese and you telling me that it is.

On top of that, I remember you hardcore defending the corpse of Lecavalier so I know you don't judge players properly and you're too stubborn to be corrected. You misjudged him and now you're misjudging TK.

 

[blinds]

I didn't feel like wasting my time writing a real response to you. Based on your posts, this one and the one I responded to before, you have no concept of value or how Konecny should be used. All the bold was wrong, some hilariously so, and if I go point by point and correct you nothing will change.... so what's the point? It wouldn't be a discussion, it'd be me explaining that the moon isn't made of cheese and you telling me that it is.

I don't know why you're on a discussion forum if you're just here to throw out opinions and refuse to discuss or defend them further.

On top of that, I remember you hardcore defending the corpse of Lecavalier so I know you don't judge players properly and you're too stubborn to be corrected. You misjudged him and now you're misjudging TK.

Lol seriously? That's some spectacular holier-than-thou bullshit. I'm pretty sure I just argued to give the guy a chance rather than bury him in a checking role and admitted when he failed but I don't feel like going back to posts from 2013 to confirm that. Sorry I dared to disagree with you.

I guess you've never been wrong about a player in all 50k of your posts.

 

[Striiker]

I don't know why you're on a discussion forum if you're just here to throw out opinions and refuse to discuss or defend them further.



Lol seriously? That's some spectacular holier-than-thou bull****. I'm pretty sure I just argued to give the guy a chance rather than bury him in a checking role and admitted when he failed but I don't feel like going back to posts from 2013 to confirm that. Sorry I dared to disagree with you.

I guess you've never been wrong about a player in all 50k of your posts.

Nah, there's lots of people on here who I can discuss things with, even if we don't agree.

You're just not one of those people. Especially after that absurd nitpicking of the word "horrific" and the other silly things you said about Konecny.

 

[blinds]

Nah, there's lots of people on here who I can discuss things with, even if we don't agree.

You're just not one of those people. Especially after that absurd nitpicking of the word "horrific" and the other silly things you said about Konecny.

I don't get what I said that was so silly. I'm pretty high on Konecny, he's one of our best goalscorers but he's still pretty flawed in other ways. I just don't think he's been misused. He's been pretty lucky to be able to play on the first line.

And I mean again, I don't think it's a nitpick. It's not about your word choice, it's about the examples you have of misuse not being that bad. When we're talking about how he's used, there's ways he used better and worse than he deserves. I don't think your examples of the worse outweighs the better.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

It's compensation dispute. Has nothing at all to do with player or his play.

 

[blinds]

It's compensation dispute. Has nothing at all to do with player or his play.

Well, his compensation is based on his play as a player... it has a little to do with it.

 

[bennysflyers16]

As I said before, the problem is rumored to be term instead of money.

Of course it’s money, longer the term the higher cap hit TK will want.

 

[flyersfromquebec]

It's compensation dispute. Has nothing at all to do with player or his play.

Maybe it's centered around a no trade/mouvement clause.

 

[Rich Nixon]

For the TK hate squad, a reminder of who he is, since apparently you guys don’t know.

Who hates TK? Haven’t paid attention to the last few pages of the thread but I doubt that opinion has been expressed. But, I guess, as a discerning mind once said...

Yup, lazy accusations have become expected around here.

I’m stupid for even bothering.

Anything positive = Stan
Anything negative = Hater

 

[Striiker]

Who hates TK? Haven’t paid attention to the last few pages of the thread but I doubt that opinion has been expressed. But, I guess, as a discerning mind once said...

Good try, but nope. No contradiction here. This is a legit case of people irrationally hating on a player.

For example, we have a poster on here who has attempted to dump on TK every step of career. Like literally consistent posts dumping on this player for YEARS, even when he was lighting it up with the top line. Clear bias against the player.

That’s nowhere near comparable to what I was saying in that post, which was a reaction to people lazily calling me a “Provorov hater” simply because I disagreed on his contract value and said he wasn’t the best defensemen on this team.

But again, good try. That’s “whiff x3”, which means you’re out.

 

[Striiker]

Of course it’s money, longer the term the higher cap hit TK will want.

Or Fletcher wants 3-4 years and TK wants 6-8.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Or Fletcher wants 3-4 years and TK wants 6-8.

My guess is Fletcher wants a bridge to keep cost down because the team wants to be able to add a shiney new toy at the deadline.

Id much rather go long term with him.

 

[FLYguy3911]

TK doesn’t wanna bet on himself.

 

[deadhead]

My guess is Fletcher wants a bridge to keep cost down because the team wants to be able to add a shiney new toy at the deadline.

Id much rather go long term with him.

Or because he's not sure how TK will respond to AV, and doesn't want to be stuck trying to move a long-term contract, especially an overpriced long-term contract, if things don't work out.

A bridge will give Fletcher time to see how TK responds to hard coaching, and to better gauge his long-term value.
If TK insists on a long-term deal, he'll have to give a discount to protect the team.

 

[Larry44]

Vigneault and Therrien imo are going to be guys that ride him hard for missing time the first mistake he gets. He’s put the x on his back.

I love TK and don’t get this situation. His contract shouldn’t be that hard of a deal to work out. I’m not huge on Fletcher but I can’t seem him low balling. Doesn’t seem like that kind of GM.

Wtf.

If a coach punishes a player for trying to get a contract he thinks is fair, the coach is out of his lane. Let Chuck do his job and shut up.

 

[Larry44]

TK doesn’t wanna bet on himself.

Or he wants to be a Flyer for a long time?

 

[FlyerNutter]

If a coach punishes a player for trying to get a contract he thinks is fair, the coach is out of his lane. Let Chuck do his job and shut up.

I’m not saying I agree with it, but I don’t think it’s a crazy notion that the coaches are going to initially be a little more critical of TK whenever he does come back.

 

[bennysflyers16]

I’m not saying I agree with it, but I don’t think it’s a crazy notion that the coaches are going to initially be a little more critical of TK whenever he does come back.

Of course they will be, especially being vet coaches.

A lot will say new systems don’t matter, but the Flyers could struggle early. We are going from no coaches to a hard ass that will demand things are done his way. AV knows he needs as much time as possible with all his top players.