Sidney Crosby vs Connor McDavid - This year Only

[daver]

The legend of playoff Crosby is way overblown, especially in recent years. This isn't to say he's not excellent in the playoffs, he's just not as good as people think he is.

His career PPG in the regular season is 1.29 and in the playoffs it's 1.16 so the idea that he turns it up a notch in the playoffs is just not true.

He has 80 points in 78 playoff games over the past 5 years which again is significantly below his regular season numbers.

He's also proven that the longer the playoffs go, the less dominant he is.

In the ECF and SCF he has 45 points in 53 career games. That's a 71 point pace.

In the SCF alone he has 20 points in 25 games. That's a 66 point pace. He has 4 total goals in the SCF (13 goal pace) and only 1 in his last 15 SCF games.

I'll take McDavid because he's simply better at this point in their careers.

Great strawman to kick things off. Then some cherrypicked stats to back it up. The irony is that Crsoby's SCF PPG is better than McDavid's career playoff PPG.

As others have said, you go with proven playoff performer until proven otherwise. It is not an outrageous idea that McDavid's strengths may not be as effective in playoff hockey.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Great strawman to kick things off. Then some cherrypicked stats to back it up. The irony is that Crsoby's SCF PPG is better than McDavid's career playoff PPG.

As others have said, you go with proven playoff performer until proven otherwise. It is not an outrageous idea that McDavid's strengths may not be as effective in playoff hockey.

It’s more ironic that you would compare Crosby’s 4 different stanley cup finals series to McDavids ONE, only to lump them together and say “hey look, he has a better PPG in the finals than McDavid does in his CAREER playoffs!” Then proceed to call him the cherry picker....I guess a 13 game sample size is good enough for you.

What’s more funny is that you even bring up his SCF PPG, as if that’s something worth noting to benefit Crosby? He was terrible in ‘09, mediocre in ‘16, solid in ‘08, and great in ‘17.....yet he only lead his team in scoring ONE time out of all those years, and NONE the years he won the cup.

Your last statement is beyond ridiculous. How can you make that claim with the little post season experience he has? He can’t be like Crosby and play lackluster hockey a majority of the season, finishing 3rd on his own team in scoring.

McDavid hasn’t proven anything because he hadn’t had a good enough team around him to have the opportunity. What’s more ironic is how you love to ignore that and cherry pick yourself.

 

[StoneHands]

Great strawman to kick things off. Then some cherrypicked stats to back it up. The irony is that Crsoby's SCF PPG is better than McDavid's career playoff PPG.

As others have said, you go with proven playoff performer until proven otherwise. It is not an outrageous idea that McDavid's strengths may not be as effective in playoff hockey.

It's not a strawman. His career PPG is lower in the playoffs than the regular season, that's a fact. His playoff production drops significantly the deeper he gets and in the SCF he has 4 goals and 16 assists in 25 games. I really don't care what 20-22 year old Crosby did because that's not the guy we're talking about. Crosby has not been dominant in the playoffs during second half of his career and that's what we're debating here.

 

[daver]

It's not a strawman. His career PPG is lower in the playoffs than the regular season, that's a fact. His playoff production drops significantly the deeper he gets and in the SCF he has 4 goals and 16 assists in 25 games. I really don't care what 20-22 year old Crosby did because that's not the guy we're talking about. Crosby has not been dominant in the playoffs during second half of his career and that's what we're debating here.

Nobody was saying that it was or that he raised his game. That's the strawman. He is the best playoff performer of his era though.

Crosby not dominant in the 2nd half of his career? After age 22:

NHL.com - Stats

-Leader in points, 2nd in PPG (despite a noted 2-way role in one of his Smythe runs)
- T1 in goals
-Won two Conn Smythes
- T4 in best playoff run
- T1 in best PPG (min. of two rounds)

And guess who is the leading scorer in the SCF for his team in their last two Cups? How about for all of their SCFs? It ain't the 2nd best playoff performer of the era.

If not Crosby, who would you want for the playoffs in his era?

 

[Future GOAT]

I think this thread has run it's course, McDavid has correctly and overwhelmingly been chosen for both. Time to lock it up.

 

[StoneHands]

Nobody was saying that it was or that he raised his game. That's the strawman. He is the best playoff performer of his era though.

Many, many people say that Crosby raises his game in the playoffs and it's statistically inaccurate. In fact, in the 11 years he's made the playoffs only twice was his playoff PPG higher than his regular season PPG.

Crosby not dominant in the 2nd half of his career? After age 22:

NHL.com - Stats

-Leader in points, 2nd in PPG (despite a noted 2-way role in one of his Smythe runs)
- T1 in goals
-Won two Conn Smythes
- T4 in best playoff run
- T1 in best PPG (min. of two rounds)

I'm sorry, maybe my math is a bit rusty but can you explain how the halfway point of a 31 year olds career is when he was 22?

Even using your own link you're wrong.

He's only 2nd in PPG if you remove everyone with less than 69 games played, talk about cherry picking. He's 7th in PPG among players with 2 or more rounds of games.

He's not tied for 1st in goals no matter how you swing it. Ovechkin has 5 more goals in 5 fewer playoff games.

And guess who is the leading scorer in the SCF for his team in their last two Cups? How about for all of their SCFs? It ain't the 2nd best playoff performer of the era.

2008: Hossa lead the Pens in scoring.
2009: Malkin lead the Pens in scoring. Crosby was tied with 4 other players for 4th on the team.
2016: Letang lead the Pens in scoring. Crosby failed to score a goal.
2017: Crosby lead the Pens in scoring.

If not Crosby, who would you want for the playoffs in his era?

Since the thread is about who I would want right now, the answer remains McDavid.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Nobody was saying that it was or that he raised his game. That's the strawman. He is the best playoff performer of his era though.

Crosby not dominant in the 2nd half of his career? After age 22:

NHL.com - Stats

-Leader in points, 2nd in PPG (despite a noted 2-way role in one of his Smythe runs)
- T1 in goals
-Won two Conn Smythes
- T4 in best playoff run
- T1 in best PPG (min. of two rounds)

And guess who is the leading scorer in the SCF for his team in their last two Cups? How about for all of their SCFs? It ain't the 2nd best playoff performer of the era.

If not Crosby, who would you want for the playoffs in his era?

Crosby didn’t lead the team in scoring their past two cup wins, and he has only lead the Team in finals scoring ONE time(2017). Hossa(‘08), Malkin(‘09), and Letang(‘16).

The greatest player in this generation needs more help than you proclaim, yet It’s on McDavid that he hasn’t had any playoff success.....it also helps having the 2nd, if not equally impressive playoff performer on his own team to bail Crosby out from time to time....but again let’s ignore that.

If you pick Crosby for this era in the playoffs, you getting the best of the best, but your also not realizing that with no Malkin or Kessel, he most likely doesn’t have the playoff resume that you drool over. Believe it or not it is a team effort in the end.

Cherry picking mixed with false claims, even better.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's not a strawman. His career PPG is lower in the playoffs than the regular season, that's a fact. His playoff production drops significantly the deeper he gets and in the SCF he has 4 goals and 16 assists in 25 games. I really don't care what 20-22 year old Crosby did because that's not the guy we're talking about. Crosby has not been dominant in the playoffs during second half of his career and that's what we're debating here.

Crosby eats up the two opening round teams which has always boosted his numbers

 

[StoneHands]

Crosby eats up the two opening round teams which has always boosted his numbers....

R1/2: 56-30-50-80
R3/4: 48-14-31-45

Yup, that's what I posted earlier and I'm pretty sure it's actually 45 points in 53 games. I think you missed when they were swept in the ECF in '13 and he was pointless.

 

[daver]

It's not a strawman. His career PPG is lower in the playoffs than the regular season, that's a fact. His playoff production drops significantly the deeper he gets and in the SCF he has 4 goals and 16 assists in 25 games. I really don't care what 20-22 year old Crosby did because that's not the guy we're talking about. Crosby has not been dominant in the playoffs during second half of his career and that's what we're debating here.

I'm sorry, maybe my math is a bit rusty but can you explain how the halfway point of a 31 year olds career is when he was 22?.

I am only going by what you have said you cared about. You seem to only care about trying to make Crosby look as bad as he can by including his one bad playoff run where he was injured.

We can sit here and cherrypick all day if you want to. How about Crosby's playoff performances since McDavid first made the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Crosby is the points leader and dominant PPG leader.

 

[daver]

Yup, that's what I posted earlier and I'm pretty sure it's actually 45 points in 53 games. I think you missed when they were swept in the ECF in '13 and he was pointless.

Just so I understand, you don't think Crosby is the best playoff performer of his era?

Or if you want to disregard his resume before age 22 for some reason, you don't think he is the best playoff performer over the last three years?

And do you think McDavid was better in the 16/17 season?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yup, that's what I posted earlier and I'm pretty sure it's actually 45 points in 53 games. I think you missed when they were swept in the ECF in '13 and he was pointless.

Ya I realized my stats were off.....thank you for that.

I am only going by what you have said you cared about. You seem to only care about trying to make Crosby look as bad as he can by including his one bad playoff run where he was injured.

We can sit here and cherrypick all day if you want to. How about Crosby's playoff performances since McDavid first made the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Crosby is the points leader and dominant PPG leader.

what does any of that have to do with the 2-3 lies you just tried to pass off as facts?

 

[StoneHands]

I am only going by what you have said you cared about. You seem to only care about trying to make Crosby look as bad as he can by including his one bad playoff run where he was injured.

We can sit here and cherrypick all day if you want to. How about Crosby's playoff performances since McDavid first made the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Crosby is the points leader and dominant PPG leader.

Of all the things I corrected in your post the only thing you reply to is about why you used 22 and beyond as your cut off date for half way through his career?

You don't care to respond to lying about Crosby leading his team in scoring int he SCF all 4 times when he's actually only done it once?

Nothing about saying he is tied in playoff PPG during that time (min of 2 rounds) when he's actually 7th?

Ignoring saying he's tied for the lead in goals during that time when he's 5 behind Ovechkin in 5 more games?

 

[daver]

Of all the things I corrected in your post the only thing you reply to is about why you used 22 and beyond as your cut off date for half way through his career?

You don't care to respond to lying about Crosby leading his team in scoring int he SCF all 4 times when he's actually only done it once?

Nothing about saying he is tied in playoff PPG during that time (min of 2 rounds) when he's actually 7th?

Ignoring saying he's tied for the lead in goals during that time when he's 5 behind Ovechkin in 5 more games?

He is the leading scorer for the Pens if you count the last two SCFs together and if you count their four SCFs together.

You really think it makes sense to compare the PPGs of those who have played 10% to 20% of the games that Crosby played?

As for the goal totals, meant to post this link, 2012 to 2018, as Crosby missed the 2011 playoffs. They have 36 goals apiece. Of course Crosby is the leading playoff goalscorer of his era.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...ameType=3&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,4&sort=goals

There, I have responded to your questions, your turn:

Do you think Crosby is the best playoff performer of his era?

Or if you want to disregard his resume before age 22 for some reason, you don't think he is the best playoff performer over the last three years?

Can you name a player who had a better three year playoff run than this? I'll give you a hint, his last name starts with a C.

Can you name a player who had a better three year run in terms of regular season and playoff success?

And do you think McDavid was better in the 16/17 season?

 

[GreatGonzo]

He is the leading scorer for the Pens if you count the last two SCFs together and if you count their four SCFs together.

You really think it makes sense to compare the PPGs of those who have played 10% to 20% of the games that Crosby played?

As for the goal totals, meant to post this link, 2012 to 2018, as Crosby missed the 2011 playoffs. They have 36 goals apiece. Of course Crosby is the leading playoff goalscorer of his era.

NHL.com - Stats

There, I have responded to your questions, your turn:

Do you think Crosby is the best playoff performer of his era?

Or if you want to disregard his resume before age 22 for some reason, you don't think he is the best playoff performer over the last three years?

Can you name a player who had a better three year playoff run than this? I'll give you a hint, his last name starts with a C.

Can you name a player who had a better three year run in terms of regular season and playoff success?

And do you think McDavid was better in the 16/17 season?

Changes the argument when faced with that fact that you lied. Classic Daver.

So NOW we are combining the last two AND four Stanley cup finals??? I love it.....

Last 2
Malkin: 48-16-30-46
Crosby: 48-14-32-46
Kessel: 49-18-27-45

Wow, you change your argument and STILL was wrong.....amazing!

 

[GreatGonzo]

By the way @daver

All 4 runs combined....
Malkin: 92-40-64-104
Crosby: 92-35-69-104

Wow looks like you were wrong again.....Malkin tied Crosby in points in both your standards while having more goals....

So let’s establish some things....you lied about..
-Crosby leading his team in all 4 cup finals
-Crosby leading his team the last 2 cup finals
-Crosby lead them with all 4 combined
-Crosby lead them with the last 2 combined

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Wow. Burn.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Mcdavid regular season Crosby playoffs. The answer for playoffs will be Mcdavid eventually but right now i honestly couldn't in good conscience. Crosby is one of the best playoff players of all time and Mcdavid still has to prove himself in that arena.

 

[StoneHands]

He is the leading scorer for the Pens if you count the last two SCFs together and if you count their four SCFs together.

If you count all 4 SCF together he's also last among forwards in scoring considering there are only two who have been on the team for all 4 and they are tied in points. See how silly this stat is you're trying to change?

You really think it makes sense to compare the PPGs of those who have played 10% to 20% of the games that Crosby played?

I used the exact perimeters that you set which was a minimum of 2 rounds. Now you want to change it to better suit Crosby?

As for the goal totals, meant to post this link, 2012 to 2018, as Crosby missed the 2011 playoffs. They have 36 goals apiece. Of course Crosby is the leading playoff goalscorer of his era.

NHL.com - Stats

So to prop up Crosby you first use from age 22 forward and then when you don't get the result you want, you shift the goal posts and change the starting point? Seems fair to me.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I’m confused. If playoffs plays such a huge role in deciding who is and isn’t better. Why was Crosby considered the best based on regular season only in ‘07 and ‘14? But then still considered the better player in ‘17 and ‘18 without any playoff success?

We seem to switch what is and isn’t more valuable to favor Crosby constantly.

 

[talitintti]

I’m confused. If playoffs plays such a huge role in deciding who is and isn’t better. Why was Crosby considered the best based on regular season only in ‘07 and ‘14? But then still considered the better player in ‘17 and ‘18 without any playoff success?

We seem to switch what is and isn’t more valuable to favor Crosby constantly.

It's the same phenomenon as is, to a smaller scale, with McDavid now. McDavid is, quite clearly, the best player in hockey right now - but players like MacKinnon and Kucherov are just a step below, and could realistically at some point challenge him. But there is some insistence that McDavid must not be compared to anyone else in the league.

It's because of all of the hype of the next big generational (Canadian) player that Crosby, McDavid are seen as untouchable players. Obviously Crosby earned that at his time, and McDavid has earned it now, but there is definitely a lot of agenda to push them to further than what they are. A lot more now for Crosby, who really just isn't as dynamic as the game-breaking young talents in the league right now, especially McDavid. But somehow he should keep his title as the best for years and years and years without performing as one.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's the same phenomenon as is, to a smaller scale, with McDavid now. McDavid is, quite clearly, the best player in hockey right now - but players like MacKinnon and Kucherov are just a step below, and could realistically at some point challenge him. But there is some insistence that McDavid must not be compared to anyone else in the league.

It's because of all of the hype of the next big generational (Canadian) player that Crosby, McDavid are seen as untouchable players. Obviously Crosby earned that at his time, and McDavid has earned it now, but there is definitely a lot of agenda to push them to further than what they are. A lot more now for Crosby, who really just isn't as dynamic as the game-breaking young talents in the league right now, especially McDavid. But somehow he should keep his title as the best for years and years and years without performing as one.

I mean your forgetting some pretty big factors there. Kucherov and McKinnon have a better team around them with significantly better linemates and teammates. McDavid is the only top player right now doing the most with the least. That does matter, even other players like Marner, Pastrnak, Gaudreau, and even Ovechkin have more support.

Now I understand the “untouchable” concept....but I didn’t see anyone writing odd Crosby after his first round exit in ‘07. I didn’t see anyone challenging his title in ‘14 after a disappointing playoff showing. It seems to me that we give Crosby special treatment while not even giving McDavid a chance to prove himself. We are already selling him short because of his team situation. I do think many just aren’t willing to let it go that Crosby is no longer THE best, and so now playoffs should be the deciding factor. Which is very much puts McDavid at a disadvantage.

 

[talitintti]

I mean your forgetting some pretty big factors there. Kucherov and McKinnon have a better team around them with significantly better linemates and teammates. McDavid is the only top player right now doing the most with the least. That does matter, even other players like Marner, Pastrnak, Gaudreau, and even Ovechkin have more support.

Now I understand the “untouchable” concept....but I didn’t see anyone writing odd Crosby after his first round exit in ‘07. I didn’t see anyone challenging his title in ‘14 after a disappointing playoff showing. It seems to me that we give Crosby special treatment while not even giving McDavid a chance to prove himself. We are already selling him short because of his team situation. I do think many just aren’t willing to let it go that Crosby is no longer THE best, and so now playoffs should be the deciding factor. Which is very much puts McDavid at a disadvantage.

I agree that McDavid is the best and Crosby is just one of the best, and is losing ground quickly - and even those Kucherovs, MacKinnons are surpassing him.

I'm just saying that these Canadian supertalents get more pass than other players because they're supposed to be the best and are marketed as the best for so long. Crosby has gotten the pass for so long and McDavid likely will when his time comes as well, by many, because people love to cling to the past.

 

[daver]

If you count all 4 SCF together he's also last among forwards in scoring considering there are only two who have been on the team for all 4 and they are tied in points. See how silly this stat is you're trying to change?

I used the exact perimeters that you set which was a minimum of 2 rounds. Now you want to change it to better suit Crosby?

So to prop up Crosby you first use from age 22 forward and then when you don't get the result you want, you shift the goal posts and change the starting point? Seems fair to me.

You are the one who opened this can of worms by trying to limit Crosby's playoff resume to suit your agenda.

Crosby is the best playoff performer of his era. If you want to only reference recent performances, he the most dominant playoff performer over the past three seasons; the exact same amount of time that McDavid has been relevant.

​

 

[GreatGonzo]

You are the one who opened this can of worms by trying to limit Crosby's playoff resume to suit your agenda.

Crosby is the best playoff performer of his era. If you want to only reference recent performances, he the most dominant playoff performer over the past three seasons; the exact same amount of time that McDavid has been relevant.

​

Your the one who made up multiple lies just to make Crosby appear superior than he actually was to suit your agenda. I mean did you really have to lie multiple times in order to get your point across?

At least you FINALLY got a sample size that was actually true.