Speculation: Should the Ducks retire #9 for Paul Kariya

[Terry Yake]

I say raise his Jersey, it won't hurt me if they don't, but I believe Paul deserves it.

Question: Has there ever been an instance where a team retires a jersey after another player has worn that number? (Bobby Ryan)

Yes

mike mottau wore #27 with NJ from 08-10 before the devils retired 27 for scott niedermayer in 2011. i know it's happened other times too, this is just the most recent example i know of

 

[Ducks DVM]

Fair enough. I just totally disagree. People watch hockey for different reasons. Some may watch for star power. I am just not one of them. Never watched the Capitals to specifically see Ovechkin. But again different people watch for different reasons.

However I don't see how fans tuning in to watch the Ducks leads to getting your jersey retired.

Kariya was an amazing player while he was a Duck. His friendship and chemistry with Selanne will always be remembered. But not every good player should get his jersey retired forever just because he played for a team. Kariya left when he could have stayed. He wanted to move on. Which is fine, I have no issue with him leaving. But loyalty shouldn't be a one way street.

To me retiring a jersey should be something sacred and the rarest of the rare. This is why personally Teemu is the only jersey I want hanging in the rafters until Getzlaf and Perry hang up the skates.

I'm not commenting in the retirement because the Ducks were just a team I liked watching at the time he left (I was rooting for them in 2003 though ), just about Kariya as far as his league-wide value. I watch a ton of hockey, and I actually despise the star-driven marketing the NHL does. The Ducks pre-Kariya really had zero reason for you to watch them though - they were a bad team. At least afterwards they were a bad team you might see some amazing plays from.

 

[TheJoeMan]

See that is the thing if you don't honor Paul Karyia with jersey retirement (which he was a good enough player for AND important part of the franchise to be honored for) because of him leaving then why honor him like Rucchin or Hebert at all? That is what I don't get. Ain't worthy of being honored in one way because of him leaving should not be honored at all then IMO. All or nothing. It is not like he was not good enough to have jersey retirement.

Some players made a mark with the team but not enough to reserve their number forever. If it were up to me I'd have his number retired but I'm biased and I can understand if they never do. But having a pre-game reflection is not a big deal and should be offered to every significant player that retires.

I say raise his Jersey, it won't hurt me if they don't, but I believe Paul deserves it.

Question: Has there ever been an instance where a team retires a jersey after another player has worn that number? (Bobby Ryan)

Ray Bourque wore number 7 for almost a decade before Boston retired it for Phil Esposito.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Oh come on now your being stupid. Emilio Estevez never played for the Anaheim Ducks. Their was no Bombay playing on the team. Michael Eisner was a businessman not a hockey player. Gary Bettman not a hockey player.

It is possible the team might of moved or whatever I can't say for sure all I know is that things would of been a lot worse for this franchise without him. The horror of how things would of been for the Ducks without Paul Karyia ever playing for this team

Good, I'm glad you backed off of that position. That was stupid. We've already established that the team sucked even with Kariya, so I'm not sure that he made a bad team less bad is anything to raise an eyebrow over. You also don't know for sure that things would have been worse without him - plenty of good players were still on the board at 4th overall.

His play on the ice with the other important things for this team is enough to retire his jersey. If it is not then so very few players who have played on this team should be in conversation to have their jersey retired and the only player who is without a doubt worthy is Teemu Selanne then.

Very few players are in the conversation (this very conversation!), so I'm not sure what your complaint is. We're debating about 5 guys, out of 281 that have played for the Ducks. That's about 2%. Historically, about 2% of players have ever had their numbers retired league-wide (117/6397). So we're not out of line with that number.

I get it he left the team making a lot of people angry and because of that so many fans who just can't let go. I don't see any possible solution to make amends.

And now you get why the people that haven't forgiven him have no time for this jersey retirement nonsense.

I never though the Ducks would win a Cup anytime soon even after making it all the way to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals in 2003 so I can't blame him for leaving. It turned out to be the best thing for the Ducks that he left.

This is a completely different thing. Good things can come from lousy events. If I hadn't stayed in a bad relationship only to watch it end in the worst possible way, I'd have never met my wife. That doesn't mean I miss my ex or appreciate how it ended.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Good, I'm glad you backed off of that position. That was stupid. We've already established that the team sucked even with Kariya, so I'm not sure that he made a bad team less bad is anything to raise an eyebrow over. You also don't know for sure that things would have been worse without him - plenty of good players were still on the board at 4th overall.



Very few players are in the conversation (this very conversation!), so I'm not sure what your complaint is. We're debating about 5 guys, out of 281 that have played for the Ducks. That's about 2%. Historically, about 2% of players have ever had their numbers retired league-wide (117/6397). So we're not out of line with that number.



And now you get why the people that haven't forgiven him have no time for this jersey retirement nonsense.



This is a completely different thing. Good things can come from lousy events. If I hadn't stayed in a bad relationship only to watch it end in the worst possible way, I'd have never met my wife. That doesn't mean I miss my ex or appreciate how it ended.

It was not stupid it is valid and I have not backed off of it I am just saying I don't know what would of happened but it is still possible the team could of moved or whatever. Yep the team sucked a lot with him but at least the fans had been able to see something special with him being a elite player and then getting Teemu Selanne in a trade with his help now giving the fans 2 elite players to see. None of the other players on the board that could of been selected was as good as him only player from that entire draft that if you could of taken over him would be considered a good move at all was Chris Pronger who went 2nd overall and the Ducks couldn't select him because they had 4h overall. If they had drafted anyone other then Paul Karyia things would of been totally worse just so glad never had to find out how much worse.

Jean-Sebastien Giguere and Scott Niedermayer are players that I have seen talked about having their jersey retired and if Paul Karyia doesn't have his when he was such a great player for the Ducks for many years then neither of those others should have them retired. Scott Niedermayer was not with the Ducks long enough and Jean-Sebastien Giguere was not good enough outside of 2 playoff runs.

What I don't get is why him leaving makes everything he had done before meaningless in such people eyes. I get angry at people for stuff but I don't hold it against them forever unless it was something totally terrible that outweighs the good. What he had done for the franchise should mean more. Leaving because he did not think he could win a championship in Anaheim is not so bad as some people are making it out to be. Try being in his shoes you have a chance to play for another team that is very good and has won some championships or you keep playing on a team that has low odds of winning a championship what would you do and think? Personally I would want to move on from a team that would take a miracle to win and had been owned by Disney. How can you blame him so much and never ever forgive him? That is what I don't understand. I don't blame him for leaving and going to the Avalanche to try to win a championship especially when Teemu Selanne also went their.

 

[DucksFanDFW]

I didn't bother to read the 11 pages of negativity that I'm sure followed the OP because it's always the same when it comes to Kariya. Every time this comes up the responses from the people who were little kids when Kariya screwed them and their team over are the same.

Kariya absolutely deserves his number in the rafters in my opinion. I don't care if he hurt your feelings and wouldn't sign something for you after a game. I don't care that he decided to try and win a cup elsewhere. What he did while he was here should not be forgotten. Those of us who were old enough to not be using a sippy cup when he played here realize this. It's time to get over the butt hurt about what he did to you when you were a kid and realize what he was while he was here - the face of the franchise.

Go ahead and call me what you will, but someone has to stand up for one of the best players to ever put on a uniform for this team. And I'm sure I can withstand a little internet **** talk if he can endure 11 years of ******** from Ducks "fans".

 

[mightyquack]

I didn't bother to read the 11 pages of negativity that I'm sure followed the OP because it's always the same when it comes to Kariya. Every time this comes up the responses from the people who were little kids when Kariya screwed them and their team over are the same.

Kariya absolutely deserves his number in the rafters in my opinion. I don't care if he hurt your feelings and wouldn't sign something for you after a game. I don't care that he decided to try and win a cup elsewhere. What he did while he was here should not be forgotten. Those of us who were old enough to not be using a sippy cup when he played here realize this. It's time to get over the butt hurt about what he did to you when you were a kid and realize what he was while he was here - the face of the franchise.

Go ahead and call me what you will, but someone has to stand up for one of the best players to ever put on a uniform for this team. And I'm sure I can withstand a little internet **** talk if he can endure 11 years of ******** from Ducks "fans".

Yeah, you're argument loses all credibility when you are flinging insults every other word.

For someone who is playing 'I'm older therefore better' card, you don't really act like it.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I hate getting drawn into this but I guess I need to respond. I was not drinking form a sippy cup when PK left. But I think most of his supporters were. There are some facts that many people don't seem to understand because they were too young to do so.

PK did not become a UFA like players today do. He didn't reach the end of a contract that automatically made him a ufa. That wouldn't happen under his cba until he became 31. But if the Ducks did not tender him a contract equal to or exceeding his last year ($10M) then he would become a ufa. After the cup loss in 2003 he gave the speech about coming back to win it next year. He told the Ducks he would take less than $10M if they would put the difference into more/better players for the team. On that basis, the Ducks did not tender him a qualifying offer and he became a ufa. The next day he left to sign with COL. It was deceptive and pretty much contrary to what he told the fans and management. The fact is, PK pulled a Justin Schultz before Justin Schultz did.

So if you want to retire his jersey, fine. Feel free to say so. But don't act like he was doing what all free agents do when making a choice where to play. The circumstances surrounding how he became a free agent were far from the norm of the day and involved deceit on his part.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

It was not stupid it is valid and I have not backed off of it I am just saying I don't know what would of happened but it is still possible the team could of moved or whatever.

Yes. Going from No Kariya = No Team to "I don't know what would have happened but it is still possible..." is backing off. And there's nothing else you could have done.

Jean-Sebastien Giguere and Scott Niedermayer are players that I have seen talked about having their jersey retired and if Paul Karyia doesn't have his when he was such a great player for the Ducks for many years then neither of those others should have them retired. Scott Niedermayer was not with the Ducks long enough and Jean-Sebastien Giguere was not good enough outside of 2 playoff runs.

Giguere (Jean-Sebastien, if you need the first name) was good for more than just two playoff runs. And if "putting a franchise on the map" is a criteria for getting your jersey retired, Niedermayer did a much better job of that than Kariya, and in half the time. You don't agree that they're good enough, fine. But it's not ridiculous.

What I don't get is why him leaving makes everything he had done before meaningless in such people eyes. I get angry at people for stuff but I don't hold it against them forever unless it was something totally terrible that outweighs the good. What he had done for the franchise should mean more.

Says who? You really think your opinion is the only reasonable one?

Leaving because he did not think he could win a championship in Anaheim is not so bad as some people are making it out to be. Try being in his shoes you have a chance to play for another team that is very good and has won some championships or you keep playing on a team that has low odds of winning a championship what would you do and think? Personally I would want to move on from a team that would take a miracle to win and had been owned by Disney. How can you blame him so much and never ever forgive him? That is what I don't understand. I don't blame him for leaving and going to the Avalanche to try to win a championship especially when Teemu Selanne also went their.

This is the most charitable possible way to paint what happened. The other side is that he backed out on a handshake deal to come back here for less. He took this franchise for top dollar for years, holding out twice, and then when he finally, FINALLY took a god damn pay cut, he did it for some other team that he had no attachment to. So people don't really blame him for leaving so much as they blame him for how he left.

Kariya absolutely deserves his number in the rafters in my opinion. I don't care if he hurt your feelings and wouldn't sign something for you after a game. I don't care that he decided to try and win a cup elsewhere. What he did while he was here should not be forgotten. Those of us who were old enough to not be using a sippy cup when he played here realize this. It's time to get over the butt hurt about what he did to you when you were a kid and realize what he was while he was here - the face of the franchise.

You can suck it, pal. I wasn't drinking from a sippy cup when he left. Whining about butt hurt while being butt hurt is a nice display of dramatic irony. You go ahead and bravely defend the guy; you're still one of the idiots he turned his back on. Please love me, Paul!

Loser.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I hate getting drawn into this but I guess I need to respond. I was not drinking form a sippy cup when PK left. But I think most of his supporters were. There are some facts that many people don't seem to understand because they were too young to do so.

PK did not become a UFA like players today do. He didn't reach the end of a contract that automatically made him a ufa. That wouldn't happen under his cba until he became 31. But if the Ducks did not tender him a contract equal to or exceeding his last year ($10M) then he would become a ufa. After the cup loss in 2003 he gave the speech about coming back to win it next year. He told the Ducks he would take less than $10M if they would put the difference into more/better players for the team. On that basis, the Ducks did not tender him a qualifying offer and he became a ufa. The next day he left to sign with COL. It was deceptive and pretty much contrary to what he told the fans and management. The fact is, PK pulled a Justin Schultz before Justin Schultz did.

So if you want to retire his jersey, fine. Feel free to say so. But don't act like he was doing what all free agents do when making a choice where to play. The circumstances surrounding how he became a free agent were far from the norm of the day and involved deceit on his part.

I would love to see any proof that he told them any of that. It's my understand that Murray told him he was not qualifying him with those intentions but it was never agreed upon on Kariya's side. Had Kariya done actually said that I'd imagine he could have been sued. I believe that for a second. I find it hilarious how many people point to his "same time next year, better result" line as some kind of affirmation of his status with the team. On that day he had every intention of being a Duck. It wasn't until three weeks later that Murray didn't qualify him that he probably even thought about going elsewhere.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Yes. Going from No Kariya = No Team to "I don't know what would have happened but it is still possible..." is backing off. And there's nothing else you could have done.

Giguere (Jean-Sebastien, if you need the first name) was good for more than just two playoff runs. And if "putting a franchise on the map" is a criteria for getting your jersey retired, Niedermayer did a much better job of that than Kariya, and in half the time. You don't agree that they're good enough, fine. But it's not ridiculous.

Says who? You really think your opinion is the only reasonable one?

This is the most charitable possible way to paint what happened. The other side is that he backed out on a handshake deal to come back here for less. He took this franchise for top dollar for years, holding out twice, and then when he finally, FINALLY took a god damn pay cut, he did it for some other team that he had no attachment to. So people don't really blame him for leaving so much as they blame him for how he left.

It's possible the Ducks could of had a problem of sucking so badly with little to get excited about if it was not for Paul Karyia do you agree? If the team sucked so bad with no elite talent would it of been possible the team moved or whatever? If you can't accept the possibility that without Paul Karyia the team could of been a disaster and moved or whatever then your out to lunch.

Jean-Sebastien Giguere did not put the team on the map. Paul Karyia and Teemu Selanne did so before Jean-Sebastien Giguere became a member of the team. Scott Niedermayer was a important piece to the Ducks winning their 1st ever championship but so was Chris Pronger,Ryan Getzlaf,the Ducks shutdown line,Andy McDonald,Teemu Selanne and so on. It is not like Scott Niedermayer captained a mediocre roster to a championship.

Well it looks like Paul Karyia gets very little respect from some people for what he had meant and done for this team in its infancy when the team needed something to get excited about and it makes me sad.

So it looks like you can't put yourself in his shoes. I would of never remained on a Disney owned team that was not committed to winning but I guess that is just me.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I would love to see any proof that he told them any of that. It's my understand that Murray told him he was not qualifying him with those intentions but it was never agreed upon on Kariya's side. Had Kariya done actually said that I'd imagine he could have been sued. I believe that for a second. I find it hilarious how many people point to his "same time next year, better result" line as some kind of affirmation of his status with the team. On that day he had every intention of being a Duck. It wasn't until three weeks later that Murray didn't qualify him that he probably even thought about going elsewhere.

None of us has any proof of private conversations regardless of our position. But if PK had not indicated an intent to go along with resigning for less do you really think Murray would have just let him walk for nothing? He would have either traded his rights before the deadline to tender (which would have been very valuable) or tendered him, signed him, and then traded him. It is exactly the Justin Schultz case a decade earlier. To think other wise is denying logic. PK led the Ducks on, however it was done, then left when he became a ufa. Those are the facts.

I'm no legal beagle but I doubt there was/is any legality to a verbal agreement to sign "for less". Anything not in writing is merely negotiating I suspect.

 

[TheJoeMan]

None of us has any proof of private conversations regardless of our position. But if PK had not indicated an intent to go along with resigning for less do you really think Murray would have just let him walk for nothing? He would have either traded his rights before the deadline to tender (which would have been very valuable) or tendered him, signed him, and then traded him. It is exactly the Justin Schultz case a decade earlier. To think other wise is denying logic. PK led the Ducks on, however it was done, then left when he became a ufa. Those are the facts.

I'm no legal beagle but I doubt there was/is any legality to a verbal agreement to sign "for less". Anything not in writing is merely negotiating I suspect.

If Murray needed Kariya's assurance that he'd sign for less before he let him go then he would have had it in writing or he's the biggest idiot this franchise ever employed. I don't believe for a second that conversation even took place. I bet on June 30th when qualifying offers went out Kariya was as shocked as everybody. If Kariya ever wanted out so bad he would have asked for a trade.

You're right, we don't know what went on behind closed doors but it seems rather ridiculous to me that this player mislead management to the point of letting him go. Since Murray didn't have a problem shelling out 10 mil to Sergei Fedorov I have a hard time believing he was so concerned about saving money on the franchises all-time leader up to that point. Why not convince Selanne to sign for less in Anaheim? It seems pretty clear Teemu would have done it considering how many times he's done it since then. Why risk not getting either of them? Murray is no idiot. He made a shrewd decision that I think worked out the way he wanted it to. But this way it makes Kariya look like the ass hole and he got his man without pissing off the fanbase.

 

[Terry Yake]

^
I don't think there was any way PK and Selanne would have signed with Anaheim for cheap in 2003

Main reason because the Avs were stacked with talent and had a much higher chance at a cup than the ducks and also because from what i remember hearing around that time, Selanne wasn't really on good terms with a lot of people in the organization. They jumped at the chance to re-unite in Colorado because they were basically being guaranteed a cup with that roster

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

None of us has any proof of private conversations regardless of our position. But if PK had not indicated an intent to go along with resigning for less do you really think Murray would have just let him walk for nothing? He would have either traded his rights before the deadline to tender (which would have been very valuable) or tendered him, signed him, and then traded him. It is exactly the Justin Schultz case a decade earlier. To think other wise is denying logic. PK led the Ducks on, however it was done, then left when he became a ufa. Those are the facts.

I'm no legal beagle but I doubt there was/is any legality to a verbal agreement to sign "for less". Anything not in writing is merely negotiating I suspect.

Oral contracts are absolutely enforceable, except those that are subject to the statute of frauds (which a multi-year player contract would be). But you're right to suspect that a nonspecific agreement to discuss playing "for less" is not a contract - it's an offer to deal, not binding on anybody.

Handshake deals like that are common in sports and business transactions generally. Yes, if you want to hold somebody to it, you get it it in writing. But business deals are multifaceted and consist of more than just one person's or another's legal rights obviously: the goodwill of the other party; the parties' respective reputations; the temperature of the negotiations; the seriousness of the matter being negotiated. Sometimes a demand for something in writing will kill the deal, because it demonstrates a lack of trust or a tone deafness by one side or the other. High level deals often require finesse and fluidity that resist fixed positions until the very end. So no, it's not an idiot who doesn't get something in writing.

Personally I think it's very plausible that a smart player, or a player with a smart agent giving advice, could take advantage of that situation to suddenly, shockingly become a free agent.

 

[snarktacular]

If Murray needed Kariya's assurance that he'd sign for less before he let him go then he would have had it in writing or he's the biggest idiot this franchise ever employed. I don't believe for a second that conversation even took place. I bet on June 30th when qualifying offers went out Kariya was as shocked as everybody. If Kariya ever wanted out so bad he would have asked for a trade.

You're right, we don't know what went on behind closed doors but it seems rather ridiculous to me that this player mislead management to the point of letting him go. Since Murray didn't have a problem shelling out 10 mil to Sergei Fedorov I have a hard time believing he was so concerned about saving money on the franchises all-time leader up to that point. Why not convince Selanne to sign for less in Anaheim? It seems pretty clear Teemu would have done it considering how many times he's done it since then. Why risk not getting either of them? Murray is no idiot. He made a shrewd decision that I think worked out the way he wanted it to. But this way it makes Kariya look like the ass hole and he got his man without pissing off the fanbase.

He wouldn't have had it in writing because that could be seen as collusion and could lead to Joe Smith type penalties.


Murray's story was that he was led to believe Kariya was receptive to the idea. Kariya hasn't refuted this or really said anything. The narrative at the time was that Kariya basically lied to become an UFA. Which BTW was worse than Schultz. Schultz may have lied, but he actually didn't gain anything because he could become an UFA anyways by doing nothing. Kariya gained by his alleged deception. That's why I hold Kariya's actions against him and not Schultz.

All I would ask of Kariya is that he comment on what went on. Provide some kind of explanation. Then he would be completely forgiven. But even then he still does not meet my requirements for jersey retirement.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

He wouldn't have had it in writing because that could be seen as collusion and could lead to Joe Smith type penalties.


Murray's story was that he was led to believe Kariya was receptive to the idea. Kariya hasn't refuted this or really said anything. The narrative at the time was that Kariya basically lied to become an UFA. Which BTW was worse than Schultz. Schultz may have lied, but he actually didn't gain anything because he could become an UFA anyways by doing nothing. Kariya gained by his alleged deception. That's why I hold Kariya's actions against him and not Schultz.

All I would ask of Kariya is that he comment on what went on. Provide some kind of explanation. Then he would be completely forgiven. But even then he still does not meet my requirements for jersey retirement.

There is also the similar debacle between Murray and Alfredsson that should be kept in mind, at least to me. I'm open to hearing some new information, and I'd love for Kariya to say something contradictory. Anything - "Look, that isn't what I said. I said we'd talk. I had dust in my eye, I didn't wink."

 

[TheJoeMan]

He wouldn't have had it in writing because that could be seen as collusion and could lead to Joe Smith type penalties.


Murray's story was that he was led to believe Kariya was receptive to the idea. Kariya hasn't refuted this or really said anything. The narrative at the time was that Kariya basically lied to become an UFA. Which BTW was worse than Schultz. Schultz may have lied, but he actually didn't gain anything because he could become an UFA anyways by doing nothing. Kariya gained by his alleged deception. That's why I hold Kariya's actions against him and not Schultz.

All I would ask of Kariya is that he comment on what went on. Provide some kind of explanation. Then he would be completely forgiven. But even then he still does not meet my requirements for jersey retirement.

See that's what bugs me is I don't understand why he'd be receptive that idea.

"Hey Paul, congrats on the great season. That was the fifth time you hit 80 points, good one you! Boy did we get close to the Cup. Listen, you make too much money so I'm going to make you a free agent. Would you be a dear and re-sign for less so we can bring in your buddy Teemu? No, I don't know if Teemu will sign here, I'm just guessing. But it's worth the risk, right?"

That's a dick move. I highly doubt Kariya, or his agent I should say since players and GMs don't interact in these matters, made any such assurance that he was on board with this idea. Why would he be? If Murray's plan was to really bring in Teemu why not make sure Kariya is under contract, or least qualified, then try to convince Teemu to take a pay cut? Kariya leaving is completely Bryan Murray's fault because that's what he wanted to happen.

 

[snarktacular]

See that's what bugs me is I don't understand why he'd be receptive that idea.

"Hey Paul, congrats on the great season. That was the fifth time you hit 80 points, good one you! Boy did we get close to the Cup. Listen, you make too much money so I'm going to make you a free agent. Would you be a dear and re-sign for less so we can bring in your buddy Teemu? No, I don't know if Teemu will sign here, I'm just guessing. But it's worth the risk, right?"

That's a dick move. I highly doubt Kariya, or his agent I should say since players and GMs don't interact in these matters, made any such assurance that he was on board with this idea. Why would he be? If Murray's plan was to really bring in Teemu why not make sure Kariya is under contract, or least qualified, then try to convince Teemu to take a pay cut? Kariya leaving is completely Bryan Murray's fault because that's what he wanted to happen.

There's no qualifying Kariya. He would accept that qualifying offer immediately because it was above his market value had had been so for years.

It's possible that Murray screwed things up or that this was always his ulterior objective. As porkins mentions, Murray now has a history of negotiations gone awry. Just like how our Murray seems to also have a history with Schultz and Gillis/Kesler. But the only story ever put out there is that Kariya is at fault. And it is also the simplest and most plausible explanation to me.

But I can also say that your interpretation might also be possible and respect your believing that. Could you or other Kariya supporters understand why this story might be possible and understand where the animosity is coming from?

 

[TheJoeMan]

But I can also say that your interpretation might also be possible and respect your believing that. Could you or other Kariya supporters understand why this story might be possible and understand where the animosity is coming from?

Absolutely. I was among the booers back in 03. But as time went on I realized I was bitter because he left and that bitterness led me to believe the story you believe happened. But as my animosity subsided and the ramifications of him leaving ended up leading us down a better road, I started to look at it objectively and I just don't believe the Kariya-deceived-us story. I just feel like going about it the way Murray did was totally the wrong way to go. Whether Kariya actually lied to him and used the situation to get out, I don't think we'll ever really know. Kariya is a quiet person and has never been dying to explain himself so I won't hold my breathe that he ever will. Also, did Murray ever actually say Kariya said he'd re-sign and he burned him? The best I can recall is he said he implied he would which is hardly any kind of promise considering how crappy Murray was treating him in that moment.

 

[snarktacular]

My original memory was that Murray said Kariya had lied. That article seems to have gone into the ether. More recently the writer (OC Reg guy, forgot the name) wrote a new article where he looked into it. New article said that there weren't any promises, but that Paul seemed to respond positively to the suggestion. Or that could just Murray misinterpreting "uh huh, yeah" like one might say to a wife. Then he goes and signs with Colorado without even saying anything to Murray.

The 2 million dollar thing also is a twist of the knife. Because if he has signed for market value in Colorado that wouldn't be as bad. Or even some discount to be able to "load the team." But the 2 million dollars makes it seem like he was only in it for himself and a payday after a season with Forsberg. Which is actually pretty fitting with every other contract negotiation he's ever had.

Compare that to Teemu, who regularly signs below market value and who came back to the team. I wouldn't even have wanted Teemu's jersey retired before 2005. The standard for retirement is just that high to me. Selanne is the only one who should get retired, and it is because of the years, the below market contract, and because everyone loves him.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

My original memory was that Murray said Kariya had lied. That article seems to have gone into the ether. More recently the writer (OC Reg guy, forgot the name) wrote a new article where he looked into it. New article said that there weren't any promises, but that Paul seemed to respond positively to the suggestion. Or that could just Murray misinterpreting "uh huh, yeah" like one might say to a wife. Then he goes and signs with Colorado without even saying anything to Murray.

The 2 million dollar thing also is a twist of the knife. Because if he has signed for market value in Colorado that wouldn't be as bad. Or even some discount to be able to "load the team." But the 2 million dollars makes it seem like he was only in it for himself and a payday after a season with Forsberg. Which is actually pretty fitting with every other contract negotiation he's ever had.

Compare that to Teemu, who regularly signs below market value and who came back to the team. I wouldn't even have wanted Teemu's jersey retired before 2005. The standard for retirement is just that high to me. Selanne is the only one who should get retired, and it is because of the years, the below market contract, and because everyone loves him.

He actually signed for $1.2M in COL. Under that cba, because it was less than the league average it would once again make him a ufa after he won his "guaranteed" cup. Win the cup, move on for more money. Sure, PK wanted a cup, but money was always at the top of the list too. (Why did he leave COL for NSH?) From his holdouts here to his bouncing around the league every time he was a ufa, PK was always about money. Which, he had every right to be. He just wasn't the innocent little angel some would like to portray him as. He was calculating and he knew what he was doing at all times, including his exit from here.

 

[snarktacular]

He actually signed for $1.2M in COL. Under that cba, because it was less than the league average it would once again make him a ufa after he won his "guaranteed" cup. Win the cup, move on for more money. Sure, PK wanted a cup, but money was always at the top of the list too. (Why did he leave COL for NSH?) From his holdouts here to his bouncing around the league every time he was a ufa, PK was always about money. Which, he had every right to be. He just wasn't the innocent little angel some would like to portray him as. He was calculating and he knew what he was doing at all times, including his exit from here.

Yeah you're right 1.2. And I probably should have explained the "below average -> UFA" thing to help put it in context, but I had assumed old time posters like joe would remember that. His contract history is another minus on the scorecard for retirement.

I thought it was earlier in this therad, but I just looked back and it wasn't. But Kariya was a little overpaid, and I had a post showing it. He was consistently like the #2-3 top played player in the entire league while generally only like the 4th or 5th best forward (and this is also ignoring defensemen and goalies like Hasek).

 

[mmbt]

The Ducks pre-Kariya really had zero reason for you to watch them though - they were a bad team.

There was all of ONE season pre-Kariya, their first year. And they were quite competitive for a first year team. Yeah, not much talent, but a scrappy team that managed to finish ahead of 6 other teams (including LA), and was not eliminated from the playoffs until the last week of the season. They managed two wins against the eventual Cup champs, had an eye-opening 4-0 road trip through Canada early on, pretty much killed the Kings' season with 2 late season wins, and if they had merely managed merely a split against SJ rather than going 0-6 they'd have taken the 8th spot in the playoffs.

Frankly, I thought there was plenty of reason to watch them that year. No one went in with any illusions about their talent level, and they certainly outperformed expectations by a country mile, and were very entertaining.

To be honest, the most unwatchable Ducks teams to me were the ones from about '99-02, when Kariya was largely phoning it in and just collecting his oversized paycheck. I disagree strongly with anyone who says he was remotely a top 5 forward at that point ... he was soft, cherrypicked, and launched more harmless shots from 40 feet away than any player I've ever seen (Corsi fanatics would have loved him). Now, the Kariya from '96 to '98 ... THAT was a legit MVP level player, and would have been worth $10 mil a year, he was a threat every time he touched the puck.

 

[Terry Yake]

a poster earlier brought up an interesting point

let's say selanne retired after the 03-04 season. would he have his jersey retired by the ducks?

i'd say no