nexttothemoon
and again...
Again... yes obviously... but the "professional" hockey writers responsible for voting have the intelligence and logic of a bag of dead snails.
Sure, I agree, but the point is that isn't what the Hart is allegedly for. It doesn't say most valuable player given your team is good, it is just most valuable player. In theory you could win 15 games all year, if you would have won 0 without one player, that player should be the Hart winner.
Any way, It is just interesting. To me it seems very clear that the award is playoff contingent, which is fine I guess. Just interesting debate.
I agree though, the real question is does he win the Lindsey.
Exactly. If you were the league's best player on a bad team, then "you weren't able to carry them". If you were the best on a powerhouse team "you weren't as valuable because your team was already stacked". So the Hart will go to a player on a bubble team like Colorado or New Jersey.It seems like the narrative of the Hart criteria this past 4 months is that it should go to the best player on a bubble team who barely make it to the playoffs.
I think the easiest way to frame that argument is asking if you swapped McDavid on the Oilers with Hall, MacKinnon or Giroux, do the Oilers finish higher or lower in the standings?
I think they finish lower in all 3 cases. Flip it around, and I think all those players 3 teams likely finish higher if they could trade that 1 player for McDavid. Which leads to the question of who brings the most value to their team. Should voters be trying to determine the best individual player for this award and try to filter out team influences and how good/bad the players team is when he's sitting on the bench? Or should the team being good still while he sits create the prerequisite for the award?
The question then is how do you define value? Inherent in that is that there was value obtained, by the team, through McD's play this season. Unfortunately the vast majority of McD's great play took place after the team was already out of the playoff race.
This is not to say McD is not a great player. Just that it was not a great season in total and that his production did not have appreciable effect on the teams fortunes.
Albeit I'd blame Chia for team success this season being arguably untenable.
Interesting points but highly speculative. Also would the results be the same if McD (playing sick half the season) were in NJ or Philly? I would say particularly in Philly that Giroux has longterm been a mobilizer on that team. I think the Flyers are not anywhere near contention without having him on their team. I don't even like Giroux and I'm saying that. Had McD hypothetically been a Flyer this season, or for a few short seasons I don't think he gains the traction there that Giroux has through several years of being there. You can't replace Giroux on the Flyers, the club ceases to be viable without him.
The Hall case is incredible. Taylor Hall virtually transformed that club in 2nd year. Nobody expected Jersey to even be in playoff contention let alone make the playoffs. Taylor was also with, or leading McD in pts through some of the season. I think McD could have similar impact in NJ but it isn't a given. It isn't an automatic notion that he would. Taylor is a bit older and a bit more cantankerous. Likely to speak out more, say whats on his mind, and maybe be more vocal with team mates. McD hasn't really learned that facet yet. It often seems like he's too young and uncomfortable with that part of captaincy.
This stated with every respect for McD and I truly admire the way he is. He has wisdom far beyond his years. I do sometimes think though that the boy might be so bright that if he did convey more it wouldn't always be understood.
Interesting points but highly speculative. Also would the results be the same if McD (playing sick half the season) were in NJ or Philly? I would say particularly in Philly that Giroux has longterm been a mobilizer on that team. I think the Flyers are not anywhere near contention without having him on their team. I don't even like Giroux and I'm saying that. Had McD hypothetically been a Flyer this season, or for a few short seasons I don't think he gains the traction there that Giroux has through several years of being there. You can't replace Giroux on the Flyers, the club ceases to be viable without him.
The Hall case is incredible. Taylor Hall virtually transformed that club in 2nd year. Nobody expected Jersey to even be in playoff contention let alone make the playoffs. Taylor was also with, or leading McD in pts through some of the season. I think McD could have similar impact in NJ but it isn't a given. It isn't an automatic notion that he would. Taylor is a bit older and a bit more cantankerous. Likely to speak out more, say whats on his mind, and maybe be more vocal with team mates. McD hasn't really learned that facet yet. It often seems like he's too young and uncomfortable with that part of captaincy.
This stated with every respect for McD and I truly admire the way he is. He has wisdom far beyond his years. I do sometimes think though that the boy might be so bright that if he did convey more it wouldn't always be understood.
Without McDavid the Oilers would be getting Dahlin or Svechnikov this draft.
.........and with him you're still drafting Bouchard/Kotkaniemi/Veleno.
****, you got us here.
Should have traded the pick for Hamonic so we could be drafting nobody.
That’s some pretty sweet deflection......
I mean we could go blow for blow on GMs making mistakes, but it’s not like you or I have anything to do with those decisions.
It was just a weak argument. Just because you’re drafting 8-9 spots worse isn’t justification for getting the Hart.
I do find it interesting that the Oilers have the best young hockey player in the world, we all know how amazing he is, but you guys scream foul if he doesn’t bring home all the trophies.
Can’t you guys just be happy he’s playing for your team for the next 8 years? Do you really expect him to sweep the awards for the next 8 years? Not even Gretzky managed that.....and McDavid is not Gretzky.
That’s some pretty sweet deflection......
I mean we could go blow for blow on GMs making mistakes, but it’s not like you or I have anything to do with those decisions.
It was just a weak argument. Just because you’re drafting 8-9 spots worse isn’t justification for getting the Hart.
I do find it interesting that the Oilers have the best young hockey player in the world, we all know how amazing he is, but you guys scream foul if he doesn’t bring home all the trophies.
Can’t you guys just be happy he’s playing for your team for the next 8 years? Do you really expect him to sweep the awards for the next 8 years? Not even Gretzky managed that.....and McDavid is not Gretzky.
.........and with him you're still drafting Bouchard/Kotkaniemi/Veleno.
No. I feel you should make the playoffs to be the most valuable in the league.
It's got nothing to do with whether or not McDavid should win the Hart this season(spoiler: I have not claimed that) but nice strawman. The problem is your post wasn't about that either. Your post was about the Oilers being a bad team.
What I'm wondering is why a Flames fan is on our board telling us we're a bad team.
What does that have to do with an individual award? You don't make the playoffs because of one player
I really don't buy this "garbage" time argument against mcdavid. Points are points, and everyone plays the games and starts each game with the mentality to win. You think Edmonton just played Arizona 50 times since January or something? Some teams had a lot on the line when Edmonton played them and mcdavid was still unstoppable. If anything it could point to Edmonton not playing up to potential because they had nothing but pride to play for, but mcdavid not only elevated his own play but that of his team mates as well.
Exactly, at the end of the day you have to ask which player won his teams the most games. That was McDavid. Doesn't matter if the team was in the playoffs or not. I get it if McDavid only got points when his team was up or down by more than 4 goals. Or some stat like that. Sure I guess, if true even a player that got 200 points would technically not be valuable as none of those points ever won a game. But that isn't how McD scored his points, they were in close games. I recall he had a lot of points when the oilers were down by 1-2 in the third to tie the game up. He won the oilers more games than any other player, that is what the award should be for. Playoffs don't matter. The award isn't for playoffs, its for regular season.
To me its all that matters. Don't give a **** about individual points. If I had a vote I wouldn't have voted for McDavid either. His name wouldn't have crossed my mind.
When the whole point of the season is to make the playoffs you can't be shocked when individual awards go to those whose teams make the playoffs.
There is a best player award - and McDavid is a finalist for it.