Should McDavid win the Hart?

[nexttothemoon]

Again... yes obviously... but the "professional" hockey writers responsible for voting have the intelligence and logic of a bag of dead snails.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sure, I agree, but the point is that isn't what the Hart is allegedly for. It doesn't say most valuable player given your team is good, it is just most valuable player. In theory you could win 15 games all year, if you would have won 0 without one player, that player should be the Hart winner.

Any way, It is just interesting. To me it seems very clear that the award is playoff contingent, which is fine I guess. Just interesting debate.

I agree though, the real question is does he win the Lindsey.

The question then is how do you define value? Inherent in that is that there was value obtained, by the team, through McD's play this season. Unfortunately the vast majority of McD's great play took place after the team was already out of the playoff race.

This is not to say McD is not a great player. Just that it was not a great season in total and that his production did not have appreciable effect on the teams fortunes.

Albeit I'd blame Chia for team success this season being arguably untenable.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Yes, full stop.

 

[ConnorMcMullet]

It seems like the narrative of the Hart criteria this past 4 months is that it should go to the best player on a bubble team who barely make it to the playoffs.

Exactly. If you were the league's best player on a bad team, then "you weren't able to carry them". If you were the best on a powerhouse team "you weren't as valuable because your team was already stacked". So the Hart will go to a player on a bubble team like Colorado or New Jersey.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think the easiest way to frame that argument is asking if you swapped McDavid on the Oilers with Hall, MacKinnon or Giroux, do the Oilers finish higher or lower in the standings?

I think they finish lower in all 3 cases. Flip it around, and I think all those players 3 teams likely finish higher if they could trade that 1 player for McDavid. Which leads to the question of who brings the most value to their team. Should voters be trying to determine the best individual player for this award and try to filter out team influences and how good/bad the players team is when he's sitting on the bench? Or should the team being good still while he sits create the prerequisite for the award?

Interesting points but highly speculative. Also would the results be the same if McD (playing sick half the season) were in NJ or Philly? I would say particularly in Philly that Giroux has longterm been a mobilizer on that team. I think the Flyers are not anywhere near contention without having him on their team. I don't even like Giroux and I'm saying that. Had McD hypothetically been a Flyer this season, or for a few short seasons I don't think he gains the traction there that Giroux has through several years of being there. You can't replace Giroux on the Flyers, the club ceases to be viable without him.

The Hall case is incredible. Taylor Hall virtually transformed that club in 2nd year. Nobody expected Jersey to even be in playoff contention let alone make the playoffs. Taylor was also with, or leading McD in pts through some of the season. I think McD could have similar impact in NJ but it isn't a given. It isn't an automatic notion that he would. Taylor is a bit older and a bit more cantankerous. Likely to speak out more, say whats on his mind, and maybe be more vocal with team mates. McD hasn't really learned that facet yet. It often seems like he's too young and uncomfortable with that part of captaincy.

This stated with every respect for McD and I truly admire the way he is. He has wisdom far beyond his years. I do sometimes think though that the boy might be so bright that if he did convey more it wouldn't always be understood.

 

[McGoMcD]

The question then is how do you define value? Inherent in that is that there was value obtained, by the team, through McD's play this season. Unfortunately the vast majority of McD's great play took place after the team was already out of the playoff race.

This is not to say McD is not a great player. Just that it was not a great season in total and that his production did not have appreciable effect on the teams fortunes.

Albeit I'd blame Chia for team success this season being arguably untenable.

The problem is you are defining value as getting into the playoffs. There is no clear reason why you would define value like that. Again it just ends up in all sorts of weird questions. Like why give it to a great player on a great team, they would have made the playoffs even with out them, so what value was there? If it isn't just making the playoffs but doing well in them. Well then why give it to any one who exits the playoffs early?

The point is the metric should be wins. By the wording of the trophy that is what it is suppose to be for. McD won more games for the oilers than any other player. The stats would back that up 100%.

Any way, again, just interesting debate. I just don't think the usual argument of why it has to go to a team in the playoffs makes any sense what so ever.

 

[McGoMcD]

Interesting points but highly speculative. Also would the results be the same if McD (playing sick half the season) were in NJ or Philly? I would say particularly in Philly that Giroux has longterm been a mobilizer on that team. I think the Flyers are not anywhere near contention without having him on their team. I don't even like Giroux and I'm saying that. Had McD hypothetically been a Flyer this season, or for a few short seasons I don't think he gains the traction there that Giroux has through several years of being there. You can't replace Giroux on the Flyers, the club ceases to be viable without him.

The Hall case is incredible. Taylor Hall virtually transformed that club in 2nd year. Nobody expected Jersey to even be in playoff contention let alone make the playoffs. Taylor was also with, or leading McD in pts through some of the season. I think McD could have similar impact in NJ but it isn't a given. It isn't an automatic notion that he would. Taylor is a bit older and a bit more cantankerous. Likely to speak out more, say whats on his mind, and maybe be more vocal with team mates. McD hasn't really learned that facet yet. It often seems like he's too young and uncomfortable with that part of captaincy.

This stated with every respect for McD and I truly admire the way he is. He has wisdom far beyond his years. I do sometimes think though that the boy might be so bright that if he did convey more it wouldn't always be understood.

The thing is you have to be logical about it. Really it is a thought experiment that no one knows the answer to. But if you look at the raw stats McD did more to win teams games than any other player. So it is logical to assume that McD wins more games than any of those other players. The rest is just speculation, so who knows really.

 

[Debonair]

Totally agree - it will be interesting to see which writers left him off their ballot completely.

 

[Weitz]

No. I feel you should make the playoffs to be the most valuable in the league.

 

[oobga]

Interesting points but highly speculative. Also would the results be the same if McD (playing sick half the season) were in NJ or Philly? I would say particularly in Philly that Giroux has longterm been a mobilizer on that team. I think the Flyers are not anywhere near contention without having him on their team. I don't even like Giroux and I'm saying that. Had McD hypothetically been a Flyer this season, or for a few short seasons I don't think he gains the traction there that Giroux has through several years of being there. You can't replace Giroux on the Flyers, the club ceases to be viable without him.

The Hall case is incredible. Taylor Hall virtually transformed that club in 2nd year. Nobody expected Jersey to even be in playoff contention let alone make the playoffs. Taylor was also with, or leading McD in pts through some of the season. I think McD could have similar impact in NJ but it isn't a given. It isn't an automatic notion that he would. Taylor is a bit older and a bit more cantankerous. Likely to speak out more, say whats on his mind, and maybe be more vocal with team mates. McD hasn't really learned that facet yet. It often seems like he's too young and uncomfortable with that part of captaincy.

This stated with every respect for McD and I truly admire the way he is. He has wisdom far beyond his years. I do sometimes think though that the boy might be so bright that if he did convey more it wouldn't always be understood.

Yeah, I agree, it's all speculation. Although, I think with stats available today you can come closer than ever before to determine a players individual contributions. Basically how much they create when they're out on the ice, and separate that from what is happening when they're not out there. Of course that removes some of the intangible arguments. Player chemistry and familiarity with their current team obviously has to be discarded. Also, how much can a player really affect the play of his teammates when they are recovering on the bench? I'm sure many people that vote on the hart would actually think that the power of leadership can actually carry over in that time. How much can a player affect their goalie being a sieve when they're out on the ice? So, if they are creating a huge amount of scoring chances, but their goalie is letting trash in to make it seem like the play is more even when that player is on the ice. I'm sure that subtlety is completely lost on many voters.

If you just go by stats, and look at what happened when each player was out there, McDavid usually come out on top, by a decent amount. And his performance fell into the extremely sustainable territory this year. He has horrible luck to start the year (not even talking about how he was sick, he was still creating loads of chances, but we lost the goalie battle almost every night in the first 2 months of the season), and it balanced out over time. Most guys close to him had huge amounts of luck on their side all year, like a Karlsson.




I don't really think McDavid's game changes much depending on his teams situation. The only real impacts we've seen to McDavid's performance were illness/throat infections, and refs allowing him to be tackled all night long in the playoffs while our coach and GM stood silent with their thumbs up their butt. Aside from that, he just does his thing as best he can. He had a great finish to 16/17 when every game mattered in the regular season.

 

[HugginThePost]

Without McDavid the Oilers would be getting Dahlin or Svechnikov this draft.

.........and with him you're still drafting Bouchard/Kotkaniemi/Veleno.

 

[oXo Cube]

.........and with him you're still drafting Bouchard/Kotkaniemi/Veleno.

Shit, you got us here.

Should have traded the pick for Hamonic so we could be drafting nobody.

 

[HugginThePost]

****, you got us here.

Should have traded the pick for Hamonic so we could be drafting nobody.

That’s some pretty sweet deflection......

I mean we could go blow for blow on GMs making mistakes, but it’s not like you or I have anything to do with those decisions.

It was just a weak argument. Just because you’re drafting 8-9 spots worse isn’t justification for getting the Hart.

I do find it interesting that the Oilers have the best young hockey player in the world, we all know how amazing he is, but you guys scream foul if he doesn’t bring home all the trophies.

Can’t you guys just be happy he’s playing for your team for the next 8 years? Do you really expect him to sweep the awards for the next 8 years? Not even Gretzky managed that.....and McDavid is not Gretzky.

 

[oobga]

That’s some pretty sweet deflection......

I mean we could go blow for blow on GMs making mistakes, but it’s not like you or I have anything to do with those decisions.

It was just a weak argument. Just because you’re drafting 8-9 spots worse isn’t justification for getting the Hart.

I do find it interesting that the Oilers have the best young hockey player in the world, we all know how amazing he is, but you guys scream foul if he doesn’t bring home all the trophies.

Can’t you guys just be happy he’s playing for your team for the next 8 years? Do you really expect him to sweep the awards for the next 8 years? Not even Gretzky managed that.....and McDavid is not Gretzky.

Not that much screaming happening here. I mainly see a discussion of how individual player should and could be judged.

I actually voted no in this poll, because I acknowledge the historical way the trophy has been awarded. I do think the definition of the award could use a tweak though, if the success of the team when said player is sitting on the bench recovering is what creates the prerequisite for the player to be allowed to win it.

Hart Trophy: Awarded to the player that was most valuable to his average or better team, but maybe not too good.

 

[oXo Cube]

That’s some pretty sweet deflection......

I mean we could go blow for blow on GMs making mistakes, but it’s not like you or I have anything to do with those decisions.

It was just a weak argument. Just because you’re drafting 8-9 spots worse isn’t justification for getting the Hart.

I do find it interesting that the Oilers have the best young hockey player in the world, we all know how amazing he is, but you guys scream foul if he doesn’t bring home all the trophies.

Can’t you guys just be happy he’s playing for your team for the next 8 years? Do you really expect him to sweep the awards for the next 8 years? Not even Gretzky managed that.....and McDavid is not Gretzky.

It's got nothing to do with whether or not McDavid should win the Hart this season(spoiler: I have not claimed that) but nice strawman. The problem is your post wasn't about that either. Your post was about the Oilers being a bad team.

What I'm wondering is why a Flames fan is on our board telling us we're a bad team.

 

[lakai17]

.........and with him you're still drafting Bouchard/Kotkaniemi/Veleno.

Fortunately it's a stronger draft. If the scouts have their heads together.

 

[Debonair]

No. I feel you should make the playoffs to be the most valuable in the league.

What does that have to do with an individual award? You don't make the playoffs because of one player

 

[HugginThePost]

It's got nothing to do with whether or not McDavid should win the Hart this season(spoiler: I have not claimed that) but nice strawman. The problem is your post wasn't about that either. Your post was about the Oilers being a bad team.

What I'm wondering is why a Flames fan is on our board telling us we're a bad team.

Trust me.....I'm not saying you're a bad team. You had a bad year, and you have some holes to fill but you'll be just fine. No one knows this more than a fan of the team down south, of course our holes are a little more glaring and we don't have a McDavid.

All I was saying is that arguing he should get the Hart because you're not drafting Dahlin didn't really make much sense. We can all bitch and moan about how the award is given out, but to what end? We all know the Hart is being given out to the player that drags his team into the playoffs kicking and screaming. I mean it's the reason McDavid won it last year, even though I truly believe Talbot was the real MVP of the team. I think that played out this year, McDavid was his usual amazing self, but Talbot shit the bed.

Anyway, wasn't here to start a fight. I like to think I'm a fair poster and don't get too carried away. I've always been a supporter of McDavid, I am critical of Drai, and do voice that, which I think is fair given his performance per price tag.

We all know that McDavid is the best player in the league.......but you must also know that the league isn't going to hand out the big three awards to McDavid every year. I think of it as the refs evening up the calls at the end of the game. They are going to look to give subjective awards to different players.

Just be happy you have him.....and you know he doesn't give a shit. There is only one silver trophy he's interested in. But as good as McDavid is a lot of things have to fall the right way for that to happen. And there's times when it does, even when it's not supposed too.......look at the Capitals this year.

 

[Weitz]

What does that have to do with an individual award? You don't make the playoffs because of one player

I don't feel you are as valuable to your team if you don't make it. You can disagree if you want, doesn't make either of us correct.

 

[nightfighter]

I really don't buy this "garbage" time argument against mcdavid. Points are points, and everyone plays the games and starts each game with the mentality to win. You think Edmonton just played Arizona 50 times since January or something? Some teams had a lot on the line when Edmonton played them and mcdavid was still unstoppable. If anything it could point to Edmonton not playing up to potential because they had nothing but pride to play for, but mcdavid not only elevated his own play but that of his team mates as well.

 

[McGoMcD]

I really don't buy this "garbage" time argument against mcdavid. Points are points, and everyone plays the games and starts each game with the mentality to win. You think Edmonton just played Arizona 50 times since January or something? Some teams had a lot on the line when Edmonton played them and mcdavid was still unstoppable. If anything it could point to Edmonton not playing up to potential because they had nothing but pride to play for, but mcdavid not only elevated his own play but that of his team mates as well.

Exactly, at the end of the day you have to ask which player won his teams the most games. That was McDavid. Doesn't matter if the team was in the playoffs or not. I get it if McDavid only got points when his team was up or down by more than 4 goals. Or some stat like that. Sure I guess, if true even a player that got 200 points would technically not be valuable as none of those points ever won a game. But that isn't how McD scored his points, they were in close games. I recall he had a lot of points when the oilers were down by 1-2 in the third to tie the game up. He won the oilers more games than any other player, that is what the award should be for. Playoffs don't matter. The award isn't for playoffs, its for regular season.

 

[Weitz]

Exactly, at the end of the day you have to ask which player won his teams the most games. That was McDavid. Doesn't matter if the team was in the playoffs or not. I get it if McDavid only got points when his team was up or down by more than 4 goals. Or some stat like that. Sure I guess, if true even a player that got 200 points would technically not be valuable as none of those points ever won a game. But that isn't how McD scored his points, they were in close games. I recall he had a lot of points when the oilers were down by 1-2 in the third to tie the game up. He won the oilers more games than any other player, that is what the award should be for. Playoffs don't matter. The award isn't for playoffs, its for regular season.

To me its all that matters. Don't give a shit about individual points. If I had a vote I wouldn't have voted for McDavid either. His name wouldn't have crossed my mind.

When the whole point of the season is to make the playoffs you can't be shocked when individual awards go to those whose teams make the playoffs.

There is a best player award - and McDavid is a finalist for it.

 

[McGoMcD]

To me its all that matters. Don't give a **** about individual points. If I had a vote I wouldn't have voted for McDavid either. His name wouldn't have crossed my mind.

When the whole point of the season is to make the playoffs you can't be shocked when individual awards go to those whose teams make the playoffs.

There is a best player award - and McDavid is a finalist for it.

Again, though, it is dumb. The MVP shouldn't necessarily go to the best player, it should go to the player most valuable to his team. The player that won his team the most games. Why playoffs enter is beyond me. So hypothetically McDavid gets 200 points but misses the playoffs by 1 point, you give it to a guy that made the playoffs by 1 point but got 80 points???

Just silly. McD should win the best player, cause he is, but he was also the MVP.