Should McDavid win the Hart?

[McGoMcD]

Pretty simple question. Interesting debate. For me the answer is a clear yes. The Hart says nothing about playoffs. The Conn Smyth is for that. It is the most valuable player to his team. McDavid is by far and away that. In every statistical category imaginable he was the best player in the game this year. It is a joke he wasn't nominated, it is a joke he won't win it.

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[Kagomeboy]

Pretty simple question. Interesting debate. For me the answer is a clear yes. The Hart says nothing about playoffs. The Conn Smyth is for that. It is the most valuable player to his team. McDavid is by far and away that. In every statistical category imaginable he was the best player in the game this year. It is a joke he wasn't nominated, it is a joke he won't win it.

Sadly it is about the playoffs ,so what can we do.

 

[JetsOilersfan]

No it's not about the playoffs, the votes are cast before the playoffs are over. Should he win the Hart? No, but he should have been nominated for sure. The real question is should he win the Ted Lindsay. That award is for the 'best player' as voted by by the players, and not the 'most valuable'. Connor is the best player so he should win the Ted Lindsay in addition to the Art Ross. But Hart? Not based on our record.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Many oiler fans have homer glasses on for this discussion and some get really grumpy

Oilers sucked this year and they would have sucked a lot more without him--but either way the team sucked.

Oilers did not play a meaningful game after December 15th (or whenever the "running out of runway" comment was made). And for me that needs to be factored in--you can talk about personal stats all you like--but the fact we as a team did not play any meaningful games for almost 3/4 of the season needs to be factored in as we did face A LOT of back ups this year due to the fact teams walked in know they were going to beat us on most nights and if you compare Ice time of some the better players against us vs games that were more important to that team--they played their second and third lines more then on other nights

team sucked this year--we would have just sucked more without McDavid

 

[Hynh]

It would be nice if the writers would apply their same "exactly what the rules say" approach to the Selke and stop giving it to two-way players and start giving it to the 1 dimensional defensive 4th liners.

 

[McAsuno]

Playoffs are unfortunately still a factor, so I doubt he'll win it over Hall or MacKinnon. He should win the Ted Lindsay however.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Same answer, different thread, this stuff was already covered;

"The Hart Memorial Trophy, originally known as the Hart Trophy, is awarded annually to the "player judged most valuable to his team" in the National Hockey League"


What value did the Oilers franchise or club actually obtain through Connor getting red hot the last half of the season when the fate of the team this year was already decided?


Break it down, "most valuable to his team"


What that means to me is that X player made a difference to their team, was valuable to the team, brought some form of demonstrable success to the team.

McDavid, unfortunately, mainly padded his pts and production in the latter part of the season. In the formative first half of the season he wasn't the same player, arguably due to illness.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Same answer, different thread, this stuff was already covered;

"The Hart Memorial Trophy, originally known as the Hart Trophy, is awarded annually to the "player judged most valuable to his team" in the National Hockey League"


What value did the Oilers franchise or club actually obtain through Connor getting red hot the last half of the season when the fate of the team this year was already decided?


Break it down, "most valuable to his team"


What that means to me is that X player made a difference to their team, was valuable to the team, brought some form of demonstrable success to the team.

McDavid, unfortunately, mainly padded his pts and production in the latter part of the season. In the formative first half of the season he wasn't the same player, arguably due to illness.

I think you and I agree-what hurts him is the fact the oilers sucked and most if his pts came when nothing was on the line

Devils would not have made playoffs without Hall and avs once they moved Matty D their season turned around--With or without McDavid--the oilers were a non playoff team and it is hard to give the Hart to a player who played in so few meaningful games--if the oilers had been knocked out on the last game of the year--I could see the argument to give him the hart--but we were done in December and for me--the discussion about hart or MVP included meaningful games--something that McDavid played in very few this season whether we like it or not

 

[lakai17]

Without McDavid the Oilers would be getting Dahlin or Svechnikov this draft.

 

[Beerfish]

No he should not win it.

 

[McGoMcD]

Many oiler fans have homer glasses on for this discussion and some get really grumpy

Oilers sucked this year and they would have sucked a lot more without him--but either way the team sucked.

Oilers did not play a meaningful game after December 15th (or whenever the "running out of runway" comment was made). And for me that needs to be factored in--you can talk about personal stats all you like--but the fact we as a team did not play any meaningful games for almost 3/4 of the season needs to be factored in as we did face A LOT of back ups this year due to the fact teams walked in know they were going to beat us on most nights and if you compare Ice time of some the better players against us vs games that were more important to that team--they played their second and third lines more then on other nights

team sucked this year--we would have just sucked more without McDavid

Sure, I agree, but the point is that isn't what the Hart is allegedly for. It doesn't say most valuable player given your team is good, it is just most valuable player. In theory you could win 15 games all year, if you would have won 0 without one player, that player should be the Hart winner.

Any way, It is just interesting. To me it seems very clear that the award is playoff contingent, which is fine I guess. Just interesting debate.

I agree though, the real question is does he win the Lindsey.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

No, not because he isn’t the league MVP (he is) but because of how ridiculous the criteria is.

 

[MessierII]

So Mcdavid shouldn’t get it because he didn’t make the playoffs but the other guys were bounced a week later somehow deserve it more?

 

[snipes]

So Mcdavid shouldn’t get it because he didn’t make the playoffs but the other guys were bounced a week later somehow deserve it more?

It seems like the narrative of the Hart criteria this past 4 months is that it should go to the best player on a bubble team who barely make it to the playoffs.

 

[MoneyGuy]

So Mcdavid shouldn’t get it because he didn’t make the playoffs but the other guys were bounced a week later somehow deserve it more?

I'd argue that making the playoffs whatever the result is much better than essentially being out of the race by Christmas.

 

[McGoMcD]

So Mcdavid shouldn’t get it because he didn’t make the playoffs but the other guys were bounced a week later somehow deserve it more?

Thats it. The things it the argument you have to make the playoffs is reducttio ad absurdum. I mean so what if you make the playoffs but don't win a game. how valuable could you possible be? Then so what if you lose in the first round, you can't be that valauble if you got in the playoffs but didn't even win a round. Then well, so what you won a round, if you didn't get past other players that made it to the third round you couldn't be better than them? So forth, until only a player on the cup team could be the most valuable, then you just re award the Conn Smyth. I don't think people see that, but it is just so silly to make the argument, he was the best player, but he couldn't have been that valuable if you don't make the playoffs. You can make the same argument for any one that doesn't win the cup. How could any player on a non cup team have been more valuable that the best player on a cup team? I mean by that logic, the Hart should go to Ovechkin.

 

[CupofOil]

Thats it. The things it the argument you have to make the playoffs is reducttio ad absurdum. I mean so what if you make the playoffs but don't win a game. how valuable could you possible be? Then so what if you lose in the first round, you can't be that valauble if you got in the playoffs but didn't even win a round. Then well, so what you won a round, if you didn't get past other players that made it to the third round you couldn't be better than them? So forth, until only a player on the cup team could be the most valuable, then you just re award the Conn Smyth. I don't think people see that, but it is just so silly to make the argument, he was the best player, but he couldn't have been that valuable if you don't make the playoffs. You can make the same argument for any one that doesn't win the cup. How could any player on a non cup team have been more valuable that the best player on a cup team? I mean by that logic, the Hart should go to Ovechkin.

It's a regular season award, what they do in the playoffs is completely irrelevant.

I'd like someone to explain (and try to put bias aside) why McDavid deserves the Hart more than Hall, MacKinnon and even Giroux?
With all else fairly equal (which it was this season), why should the best player on a bottom 10 team get consideration over 3 other players who carried their team this season and made the playoffs?

 

[oil4life97]

Brutal that the Ross winner isn’t even nominated for Hart trophy. Hope this drives him to come out and just obliterate the field next season.

 

[oobga]

It's a regular season award, what they do in the playoffs is completely irrelevant.

I'd like someone to explain (and try to put bias aside) why McDavid deserves the Hart more than Hall, MacKinnon and even Giroux?
With all else fairly equal (which it was this season), why should the best player on a bottom 10 team get consideration over 3 other players who carried their team this season and made the playoffs?

I think the easiest way to frame that argument is asking if you swapped McDavid on the Oilers with Hall, MacKinnon or Giroux, do the Oilers finish higher or lower in the standings?

I think they finish lower in all 3 cases. Flip it around, and I think all those players 3 teams likely finish higher if they could trade that 1 player for McDavid. Which leads to the question of who brings the most value to their team. Should voters be trying to determine the best individual player for this award and try to filter out team influences and how good/bad the players team is when he's sitting on the bench? Or should the team being good still while he sits create the prerequisite for the award?

 

[CupofOil]

I think the easiest way to frame that argument is asking if you swapped McDavid on the Oilers with Hall, MacKinnon or Giroux, do the Oilers finish higher or lower in the standings?

I think they finish lower in all 3 cases. Flip it around, and I think all those players 3 teams likely finish higher if they could trade that 1 player for McDavid. Which leads to the question of who brings the most value to their team. Should voters be trying to determine the best individual player for this award and try to filter out team influences and how good/bad the players team is when he's sitting on the bench? Or should the team being good still while he sits create the prerequisite for the award?

I'm just looking at this season, not determining who the best player is. If that's the case, you might as well hand it to McDavid every season for the next decade. Of course those teams would be better with McDavid on it because he's a better player than everybody else but that's not how they determine MVP for a particular season.

This season, those guys carried their teams to the playoffs and McDavid didn't, his team wasn't even remotely close at any point in the season. Yes, McDavid won the Art Ross but he didn't really jump ahead of the others until his team was well out of the playoff race and I know some might not think it's fair, but scoring points in meaningful games holds more weight than scoring points in garbage time and he scored a lot of his points in garbage time. Part of being an MVP is being able to elevate your team and McDavid was unable to do that this season as unfair as that might sound.

In any event, none of this matters in the grand scheme of things and I doubt McDavid cares one bit about winning an individual award especially considering how poorly his team did this season. If anything, this might give him more fuel going into next season.

 

[DaGap]

Well good to know. Oilers were out of playoffs by Oct 31th. Guess McDavid shoulda just went on vacation instead of playing out the remaining games

 

[Laineux]

Definitely not. His season had zero value as Oilers didn't make the playoffs.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

I know he won the scoring title, but I think if he found a way to overcome the coaching and score another 10-15 power play points the team would have had a better record and he’d have a better chance of being in contention for the Hart.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

The award is given to “the most valuable player to his team” and I think the only way CMD could have been more valuable was to score more power play points.

 

[McGoMcD]

I think the easiest way to frame that argument is asking if you swapped McDavid on the Oilers with Hall, MacKinnon or Giroux, do the Oilers finish higher or lower in the standings?

I think they finish lower in all 3 cases. Flip it around, and I think all those players 3 teams likely finish higher if they could trade that 1 player for McDavid. Which leads to the question of who brings the most value to their team. Should voters be trying to determine the best individual player for this award and try to filter out team influences and how good/bad the players team is when he's sitting on the bench? Or should the team being good still while he sits create the prerequisite for the award?

Yes, exactly. You are making the exact right point. The most valuable player to a team is the player that wins the most games for the team. Clearly wins is the ultimate metric. Just cause you didn't make the playoffs doesn't mean you didn't win the most games for your team. Furthermore, just cause you made the playoffs doesn't mean you won your team any games.

You put McD on NJ, LA, or Col instead of Hall, McKinnon and Kopitar and every single one of those teams wins more games. McDavid won more games than any of those three players. If you want to argue other wise I don't see any remote stat that could possibly back up that argument.