Shero's Drafting Record 2006 - 2010

[mpp9]

And some want to justify the DP so bably that they wont admit that DP has a long way to go to be a better player than Forsberg (BFA) and Truba (BDA).

He looks like a stud to me from what I've seen in WBS. That's all we have to go by as of now.

I don't care to justify Shero. It's just silly to say DP won't be as good as FF or Trouba. Players develop at different rates.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

One of those teams has a Stanley Cup in the last 20 years. Two of them have Stanley Cup Finals appearances. It's great they filled their rosters with draft picks or even used players that played in the NHL as trading partners, but the simple fact is it doesn't really matter who you pick after the 2nd round. All of those teams have also employed players like Glass and Pyatt. I mean we picked Pyatt up off of waivers from NYR. It is trying to look at an aspect of the NHL that isn't as simple as you lead it to be. He made use of pretty much all the draft picks available during this time and did exactly what we wanted with them. Got us to the Stanley Cup Final twice and got us a Cup.

Again, we're talking about Shero's drafting in this thread, not his overall moves as a GM. He took over a team with the two best players in the world, the #2 overall pick and a bunch of tradeable assets. He did a great job building a Cup winner with what he had, but stop acting like his drafting had anything to do with it.

Trouba and Forsberg could be out of the NHL in a couple of years. You can't judge these types of decisions until at least five years down the rode. Let's also remember that Forsberg was traded for Martin Erat.

And DP could never make the NHL or be the next PMB.

 

[Gurglesons]

He looks like a stud to me from what I've seen in WBS. That's all we have to go by as of now.

I don't care to justify Shero. It's just silly to say DP won't be as good as FF or Trouba. Players develop at different rates.

Also, our team is able to develop players like DP way better than a team like the Jets or Nashville because we don't need warm bodies to fill our roster. We've got enough studs we can allow DP to slowly come into the league. Ultimately, that is what has made Detroit so successful, is giving prospects the time in the A and minor leagues to get to a level that lets them transfer into the NHL gradually. I wouldn't be surprised if Trouba has a few off years after this one. Players will start digesting his tendencies night in and out. Remember how good Neuvirth was his first year? Remember how good Holtby was too? Now they both look like **** because the entire league has gotten to see them first hand.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Also, our team is able to develop players like DP way better than a team like the Jets or Nashville because we don't need warm bodies to fill our roster. We've got enough studs we can allow DP to slowly come into the league. Ultimately, that is what has made Detroit so successful, is giving prospects the time in the A and minor leagues to get to a level that lets them transfer into the NHL gradually. I wouldn't be surprised if Trouba has a few off years after this one. Players will start digesting his tendencies night in and out. Remember how good Neuvirth was his first year? Remember how good Holtby was too? Now they both look like **** because the entire league has gotten to see them first hand.

1 - Maatta cuts your "argument" to ribbons.

2 - So you're just gonna assume that Trouba's gonna get figured out, but DP wont? Assuming he makes it of course.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, we're talking about Shero's drafting in this thread, not his overall moves as a GM. He took over a team with the two best players in the world, the #2 overall pick and a bunch of tradeable assets. He did a great job building a Cup winner with what he had, but stop acting like his drafting had anything to do with it.

I just pointed out all of the actual Cup Finalists during this period had two players drafted after the second round.

Nyquist and Tatar. So every Cup Finalist was bad during their cup years at drafting? Or is this a just systematic issue if you are going to be one of the best teams in the league?

 

[Gurglesons]

1 - Maatta cuts your "argument" to ribbons.

2 - So you're just gonna assume that Trouba's gonna get figured out, but DP wont? Assuming he makes it of course.

He really doesn't. The only reason Maatta was even given a chance was because of the injury to Letang last year. I'm not assuming anything about Trouba, just that judging draft picks so hastily is a little ridiculous.

I'd still like to see you comment on the fact between these five years being examined, every single Cup Finalist besides Detroit didn't pick a single NHL player to eclipse 100 games besides the Red Wings after the second round.

The years where the Pens were actually floundering and not a contender they were able to make some late picks that turned into NHL players for a decent amount of time. The only year you can really criticize in these being selected is 2010 which you know, was the year after the cup and we moved picks out in hopes that Poni and Leopold would lead us to another cup. They probably would've had we gotten past a hot goalie too.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Again, we're talking about Shero's drafting in this thread, not his overall moves as a GM. He took over a team with the two best players in the world, the #2 overall pick and a bunch of tradeable assets. He did a great job building a Cup winner with what he had, but stop acting like his drafting had anything to do with it.

Could you imagine how good the team could have been with just some decent help from the farm system that wasn't UDFAs or waiver claims.

 

[Gurglesons]

Could you imagine how good the team could have been with just some decent help from the farm system that wasn't UDFAs or waiver claims.

The main issue during this entire time viewed was our defense so I really don't think it would've helped at all. The issue would've been during 11 - 14, but Bylsma wouldn't have played them so I don't really see any reason to even look at this view.

Imagine how good the team would have been had Hossa signed long term.

 

[Winger for Hire]

The main issue during this entire time viewed was our defense so I really don't think it would've helped at all. The issue would've been during 11 - 14, but Bylsma wouldn't have played them so I don't really see any reason to even look at this view.

Imagine how good the team would have been had Hossa signed long term.

Oh yeah... I missed all those years with Parise flanking Sid and Malkin pillaging goals with Kuli and Garbovski. And that 3rd line last year... just magical. Made Lang/Kovi/Straka look like Adams/Glass/Engo.

The main issue since the Cup run has been lack of Top 6 wingers and forward depth. I don't see how you can even being to point to the defense being a problem. Unless you're talking about hording young blueliners and being too scared to play them... then yes, that's a problem.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh yeah... I missed all those years with Parise flanking Sid and Malkin pillaging goals with Kuli and Garbovski. And that 3rd line last year... just magical. Made Lang/Kovi/Straka look like Adams/Glass/Engo.

The main issue since the Cup run has been lack of Top 6 wingers and forward depth. I don't see how you can even being to point to the defense being a problem. Unless you're talking about hording young blueliners and being too scared to play them... then yes, that's a problem.

I'm talking 2009-10 and 2010-11. Kunitz was still a legitimate physical presence, we brought in Neal. The main issue those two years was players like Gonchar letting people duck around them and playing people like Eaton in positions where they shouldn't have been. Sid and Malkin were still world class threats by themselves during those years. 2010 we lost because of our D and Cammy being a god because of them. Suddenly, they play the Flyers and they can't buy a goal.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I just pointed out all of the actual Cup Finalists during this period had two players drafted after the second round.

Nyquist and Tatar. So every Cup Finalist was bad during their cup years at drafting? Or is this a just systematic issue if you are going to be one of the best teams in the league?

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking only about the draft immediately after they won? Are you only counting top 6/4/1 guys? Are you only counting all guys drafted or just guys still on the team? Because it sounds like you're giving much different criteria than what is being discussed here.

How about you clear that up? I'll even give you the guys the 5 years of drafted players after the 2nd that coincides with Shero's timeline:

Blackhawks:
2011: Saad (2nd). Shaw (5th)
2010: None
2009: Kruger (5th)
2008: Smith (6th)
2007: None

Wings:
2009: Tatar (2nd)
2008: Nyquist (2nd)
2007: Andersson (3rd)
2006: Emmerton (2nd), Matthias (2nd)
2005: Abdelkader (2nd), Helm (5th)

Ducks:
2008: Schultz (2nd), McMillan (3rd)
2007: Tangradi (2nd)
2006: Beleskey (4th)
2005: Mikkelson (2nd)
2004: Brent (3rd)

Hurricanes:
2007: Bowman (3rd)
2006: McBain (2nd)
2005: None
2004: Peters (2nd)
2003: Strachan (5th)

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you talking only about the draft immediately after they won?

No, I'm talking about after they made a Stanley Cup Final thus lowering their draft picks. Which we did twice during this time. Way to include 2004 and 2003 though, you know when Shero wasn't even our GM. Which has been my point the entire time, it is hard to draft when you are highly successful in the playoffs unless you are the Detroit Red Wings who are literally one of the best teams in the draft in any major sport ever.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm talking 2009-10 and 2010-11. Kunitz was still a legitimate physical presence, we brought in Neal. The main issue those two years was players like Gonchar letting people duck around them and playing people like Eaton in positions where they shouldn't have been. Sid and Malkin were still world class threats by themselves during those years. 2010 we lost because of our D and Cammy being a god because of them. Suddenly, they play the Flyers and they can't buy a goal.

Those years they were still short at least two Top 6 wingers and lacked depth in the forward department. The defense was only really a problem during that Game 7 and the Philly series. Both time there was a lot more going wrong than just the defense.

I'm with Ragamuffin... I'm lost as to what you're trying to get at anymore.

I'm just looking forward to the rest of Riptide's data.

On a side note, every time I see and type "Riptide", I'm picturing a Transformers sitting at a keyboard doing this research.

 

[Winger for Hire]

No, I'm talking about after they made a Stanley Cup Final thus lowering their draft picks. Which we did twice during this time. Way to include 2004 and 2003 though, you know when Shero wasn't even our GM. Which has been my point the entire time, it is hard to draft when you are highly successful in the playoffs unless you are the Detroit Red Wings who are literally one of the best teams in the draft in any major sport ever.

Wait, but I thought the draft was a crap shoot. It shouldn't matter where you pick then. You just pick a name out of a hat and cross your fingers someone trades for him when he goes bust.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wait, but I thought the draft was a crap shoot. It shouldn't matter where you pick then. You just pick a name out of a hat and cross your fingers someone trades for him when he goes bust.

After the second round... jesus. Ask any NHL GM and they will say the same thing, it is said on hockey radio all the time when they interview a GM and ask him why they didn't pick a player like Nyquist.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

No, I'm talking about after they made a Stanley Cup Final thus lowering their draft picks. Which we did twice during this time. Way to include 2004 and 2003 though, you know when Shero wasn't even our GM.

This thread is about Shero's drafting between 2006 and 2010. IN that 5 year window, the Pens won the Cup in the 4th year. You're making up that no one was able to draft players in similar situations (outside of Tats any Nyq), which is a complete lie. I listed the 5 year window of the 4 teams that won Cups around ours, which coincides with the same years we're talking about for Shero.

If I'm so far off, why don't you post the years you want to count to make your argument look better.

 

[Gurglesons]

This thread is about Shero's drafting between 2006 and 2010. IN that 5 year window, the Pens won the Cup in the 4th year. You're making up that no one was able to draft players in similar situations (outside of Tats any Nyq), which is a complete lie. I listed the 5 year window of the 4 teams that won Cups around ours, which coincides with the same years we're talking about for Shero.

If I'm so far off, why don't you post the years you want to count to make your argument look better.

....

We made the Cup Finals in 2008, too. No other team the draft after they made the Cup Finals drafted an NHL player after the first round besides Detroit between the years of 2006 and 2010.

in 2006 we drafted Strait and Johnson after the first round, both players could be considered "NHL" successes under RipTide's rules.

In 2007 we drafted Bort, Muzzin, and Jeffrey all who hit 100.

2008, 2009 we made the cup.

2010 is the one draft where we sucked. We only had four picks.

 

[Winger for Hire]

After the second round... jesus. Ask any NHL GM and they will say the same thing, it is said on hockey radio all the time when they interview a GM and ask him why they didn't pick a player like Nyquist.

So any draft pick after Round 1 has no value? Why not trade those picks every year and just build a farm system from UDFAs?

Just because it's not a sure thing, doesn't mean it's just random. The Kings, Sharks and those teams with a lot of players playing in the NHL from those picks sure seem to have a good handle on finding NHL talent in those rounds.

 

[Gurglesons]

So any draft pick after Round 1 has no value? Why not trade those picks every year and just build a farm system from UDFAs?

Any pick after the second round is going to be simply based on one skill attribute of the player. If you think that the Red Wings took Datsyuk and Zetterberg thinking they'd become the studs they would or even Nyquist you're joking yourself. There is a reason 29 teams looked over those players four times.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

....

We made the Cup Finals in 2008, too. No other team the draft after they made the Cup Finals drafted an NHL player after the first round besides Detroit between the years of 2006 and 2010.

in 2006 we drafted Strait and Johnson after the first round, both players could be considered "NHL" successes under RipTide's rules.

In 2007 we drafted Bort, Muzzin, and Jeffrey all who hit 100.

2008, 2009 we made the cup.

2010 is the one draft where we sucked. We only had four picks.

Again, what the **** are you talking about? I already posted Cup winners who got guys between those years.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Any pick after the second round is going to be simply based on one skill attribute of the player. If you think that the Red Wings took Datsyuk and Zetterberg thinking they'd become the studs they would or even Nyquist you're joking yourself. There is a reason 29 teams looked over those players four times.

Why do you keep going to only the Wings... what about LA, San Jose, NYR, etc? These teams found players for their, and other, rosters late and often.

Detroit is the gold standard for finding stud players late... but we're looking at just player being able to play in the NHL. We don't care if the player is a 400 goal scorer or a 4th line hanger on, as long as he had enough talent to be called upon to play in the NHL.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, what the **** are you talking about? I already posted Cup winners who got guys between those years.

Two teams make the Cup. One gets to pick 30th. One gets to pick 29th. Every single team that made a Cup Final outside of the Red Wings the two years they made it was unsuccessful in drafting a player below the second run that made an impact in the NHL. The Pens made the Finals twice between 06 - 10, that is why their draft record is so bad during 06 - 10.

When you make a Cup run you sell off players to make that Cup run. We sold off futures in 08, 09, 10 leading to our drafts being poor because we traded all of our good picks.

Chicago was not a cup contender until 2010. The Kings were certainly not a cup contender from 06 - 09, I had a 20 game package to their games. My issue with Riptide's stats is it doesn't take this into consideration. We won a Cup and went to a final two of these years, why would Shero care about the draft? We had one of the two best teams in the league.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Any pick after the second round is going to be simply based on one skill attribute of the player. If you think that the Red Wings took Datsyuk and Zetterberg thinking they'd become the studs they would or even Nyquist you're joking yourself. There is a reason 29 teams looked over those players four times.

I think you're not taking that quote quite right. I think the GMs that say that are saying that it's a crap shoot to find the next Pavel or Zetterburg, not finding NHL talent.

I'll agree that it's very very hard to find the elite level talent that gets found late in drafts, but in terms of finding just run of the mill NHL talent, those numbers Riptide has compiled has shown that it's not exactly throwing darts at a board blindfolded.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think you're not taking that quote quite right. I think the GMs that say that are saying that it's a crap shoot to find the next Pavel or Zetterburg, not finding NHL talent.

I'll agree that it's very very hard to find the elite level talent that gets found late in drafts, but in terms of finding just run of the mill NHL talent, those numbers Riptide has compiled has shown that it's not exactly throwing darts at a board blindfolded.

And we are in the middle of the pack? While being one of the sure fire contenders for the Cup during the time period, this is the issue with viewing it in a vacuum. Look at half the teams above us, Isles, Leafs, Preds, are these the teams we should be aspiring to be after we just won the Cup?

 

[Winger for Hire]

And we are in the middle of the pack? While being one of the sure fire contenders for the Cup during the time period, this is the issue with viewing it in a vacuum. Look at half the teams above us, Isles, Leafs, Preds, are these the teams we should be aspiring to be after we just won the Cup?

Some of them... yes we should try to be more like them. The difference between the Pens and them are that we won the Sid lottery and were guaranteed one of Ovie/Malkin the year before that. We were "gifted" two superstar generational talents (which were Craig Patrick... Shero might have tried to go with Jack Johnson and Cam Barker).

I would love for the Pens to be able to draft like the Isles or Preds. Just because the Pens are winning doesn't excuse the fact they ****** away those drafts.

It's not one or the other. You can do both. There's teams you don't like to mention in your arguments (LA, SJ, NYR) that have blown away your way of thinking.