Shea Weber

[ThirdManIn]

It's still a matter of the right player for the team (and for the cost) coming along from a team that is 1) willing to part with him, and 2) wanting the return we are able to offer. Our strongest return is going to rely heavily on being able to only sacrifice one roster forward, being able to only give up two defensive prospects at most, and maybe giving up a pick or two to balance considering our picks tend to be relatively low, and will only get lower if we are able to plug a substantial leak.

So, we need a trading partner who isn't in need of a 30+ goal scoring forward on a contract at or less than roughly $4.5m, but is in need of something like Hornqvist, Ellis/Josi/Ekholm, maybe a forward prospect, and a third rounder. There really aren't that many 30+ goal scorers. Even fewer teams that wish to part with them for a downgrade at forward (let's face it. if we give up Patric we are going to be getting someone better in return, or we had better be) and some futures. Sometimes it's about being aggressive. I'll go out on a limb and say most of the time it's about being lucky. There are few things a GM has control over, and I think when it comes to those things Poile does a fine job.

 

[PredsV82]

I disagree 101. The fact of the matter is, we have a top 3 set of prospects. We had one of the youngest teams, and at times THE youngest team, in the league last season. We have a full array of draft picks. We are absolutely able to acquire anyone we want in this league that is put on the block. We can put a comparable offer on the table to match any team. To say that we are not capable of doing so is silly.

of course we are capable.

im sure we could have had Carter for Ellis,Blum, Wilson, Kostitsyn, Radulovs rights and a couple of draft picks.

but that doesnt mean we SHOULD have done "whatever it took"

As I reacll you are in medical school so I'll share an axiom that is absolutely true... the best surgeons dont know when to operate, thats easy... the really good surgeons know when NOT to operate...

any GM can throw out a huge overpayment and make a trade, or break the bank on a UFA. The good ones are the ones who resist the temptation to do so, and get the right player at the right price.

 

[hatedandproud]

I disagree 101. The fact of the matter is, we have a top 3 set of prospects. We had one of the youngest teams, and at times THE youngest team, in the league last season. We have a full array of draft picks. We are absolutely able to acquire anyone we want in this league that is put on the block. We can put a comparable offer on the table to match any team. To say that we are not capable of doing so is silly.

While reading all this I started asking myself "What kind of player are "we" looking to add?"
And I'm asking everyone else too. As Voldy said, are you guys expecting a 30+ goal guy or a 20+ goal guy? What about a guy who scores in the teens, would that be acceptable?

I looked at some of the trades made this off season and the ones I looked at that involved only prospects and picks would have gotten us ones of Troy Brouer, Eric Fehr, Cogliano, or Kopecky. Would one of these guys be acceptable?

As for the other bigger names all of them involved a combination of the things Enoch said, and one thing he didn't list. What he didn't list is a proven NHL player. Heatley for Havlat; Carter for Vorachek; Setoguchi for Burns. So would we want to give up an Erat, Sk74, or M. Fischer, plus the other parts to get one of these players?

Now the ones "we" could have been in on was Mike Richards and Ryan Smyth.
The other players in the Richards trade was schenn (a 5th overall pick) and Wayne Simmonds. Personally, I think the price combined with Richards' contract may have scared Poile off on this one.

In the Smyth trade, the other player was Colin Fraser. And we know Symth wanted to go back to Edmonton.

 

[Enoch]

of course we are capable.

im sure we could have had Carter for Ellis,Blum, Wilson, Kostitsyn, Radulovs rights and a couple of draft picks.

but that doesnt mean we SHOULD have done "whatever it took"

As I reacll you are in medical school so I'll share an axiom that is absolutely true... the best surgeons dont know when to operate, thats easy... the really good surgeons know when NOT to operate...

any GM can throw out a huge overpayment and make a trade, or break the bank on a UFA. The good ones are the ones who resist the temptation to do so, and get the right player at the right price.

Residency now

And before I am misunderstood, take my comment for exactly what it is, a rebuttal to the comment that we were incapable to make a move.

We are not incapable. We are very capable. We have the assets and ability to add to this team. The question is, and has been for the past 2-3 years, are we willing to pay the price for the talent.

I didn't answer that question. I merely pointed out that we, moreso than just about any other team in this league, are ABLE to pay that price. Should we?

Well that is the question isn't it. When answering this type of question, I believe there is no black and white. There is a lot of gray. The availability of players is a continuum. Some weeks a player is available, some not, etc., etc. It takes a creative GM and one with his finger on the pulse of the league to acquire serious talent at unexpected times. I'm not so sure that Poile is a creative GM. Smart? Yes. Patient? Unquestionably. Creative? Not so much. So when I offer a critique on his off-season, it is with this history in mind. But this is all irrelevant to the discussion. Back to the original question and my answer. I think the answer, at this point, is a lot closer to yes than no. We need to make a move, a trade, a legitimate attempt to acquire an offensive threat, even if it is harmful in cost. At some point, I think the results, not the circumstances, have to be held against Poile. At this moment, I daresay he is bordering on the realm of missing a gigantic opportunity for this organization. He hasn't missed it yet, but if he does, those who hold that Poile is blameless and above major criticism due to the circumstances around our finances, will be kidding themselves IMO.

 

[I Will Son]

Residency now

And before I am misunderstood, take my comment for exactly what it is, a rebuttal to the comment that we were incapable to make a move.

We are not incapable. We are very capable. We have the assets and ability to add to this team. The question is, and has been for the past 2-3 years, are we willing to pay the price for the talent.

I didn't answer that question. I merely pointed out that we, moreso than just about any other team in this league, are ABLE to pay that price. Should we?

Well that is the question isn't it. When answering this type of question, I believe there is no black and white. There is a lot of gray. The availability of players is a continuum. Some weeks a player is available, some not, etc., etc. It takes a creative GM and one with his finger on the pulse of the league to acquire serious talent at unexpected times. I'm not so sure that Poile is a creative GM. Smart? Yes. Patient? Unquestionably. Creative? Not so much. So when I offer a critique on his off-season, it is with this history in mind. But this is all irrelevant to the discussion. Back to the original question and my answer. I think the answer, at this point, is a lot closer to yes than no. We need to make a move, a trade, a legitimate attempt to acquire an offensive threat, even if it is harmful in cost. At some point, I think the results, not the circumstances, have to be held against Poile. At this moment, I daresay he is bordering on the realm of missing a gigantic opportunity for this organization. He hasn't missed it yet, but if he does, those who hold that Poile is blameless and above major criticism due to the circumstances around our finances, will be kidding themselves IMO.

This is how i see it. Good post

 

[Viqsi]

I disagree 101. The fact of the matter is, we have a top 3 set of prospects. We had one of the youngest teams, and at times THE youngest team, in the league last season. We have a full array of draft picks. We are absolutely able to acquire anyone we want in this league that is put on the block. We can put a comparable offer on the table to match any team. To say that we are not capable of doing so is silly.

"We want a right winger that's top-6 capable now with top-line upside. And a #1C prospect."

Nashville can't match that offer. Columbus was theoretically able to do so immediately (Voracek and Johansen), which got conversations started; we managed to keep Johansen 'cause we had an early first-rounder in a draft with several quality centers, the better winger on the table, and a willingness to throw in a third-rounder as an 11th hour bribe.

Sometimes, people's demands are really tough to meet unless you just happen to be lucky.

Ideally for the Preds, a Carter trade would have happened before the Bryzgalov trade occurred, so that Rinne could have been offered. But for whatever reason, that didn't happen - maybe Holmgren's dreading new contract season next year or something. Or perhaps Poile doesn't have the kind of faith in Lindback that such a move would require. Or maybe that #1C prospect obsession loomed so large that Holmgren wouldn't have taken it even though it would have gotten him an even more spectacular goaltender. We'll never know for sure.

Now the ones "we" could have been in on was Mike Richards and Ryan Smyth.
The other players in the Richards trade was schenn (a 5th overall pick) and Wayne Simmonds. Personally, I think the price combined with Richards' contract may have scared Poile off on this one.

I disagree. The Preds do not have a #1C prospect, and Philadelphia's pattern of behavior (particularly Holmgren continuing to keep asking about Johansen well after Howson made it clear Johansen was a deal-breaker) made it very clear that what they were dead-set on getting was top center prospects, top center prospects, and more top center prospects. Brayden Schenn was what made that deal. Nashville has nothing of the sort - not with Wilson on the wing. And Nashville didn't have an early first-rounder with which to draft a center prospect to get Philadelphia to eventually shut up.

This would be especially true if Carter still went to us - they very obviously wanted one of those #1C guys to be able to step in immediately (Schenn's already penciled in on the third line over there, for G-d's sake). Since we wouldn't give them Johansen, Schenn was pretty much the only other reasonable option.

 

[101st_fan]

I disagree 101. The fact of the matter is, we have a top 3 set of prospects. We had one of the youngest teams, and at times THE youngest team, in the league last season. We have a full array of draft picks. We are absolutely able to acquire anyone we want in this league that is put on the block. We can put a comparable offer on the table to match any team. To say that we are not capable of doing so is silly.

Name the top 3 level forward prospects in the Preds organization. We have all sorts of top blueline prospects. What Philly took in return were forward prospects and a very early pick in this year's draft. None of Latta, Bourque, Watson, or Beck are the same level as Schenn or the #8 overall pick that went back in the Carter and Richards deals.

So ... for Carter we could have ponied up Wilson, Josi/Ellis/Blum/Ekholm, the #38 overall, maybe Watson/Latta/Bourque. The Jackets sent Voracek (15g, 48pts avg the past two seasons, RFA next summer), the #8 overall, and a 3rd.

Let me see what you build as an offer that beats what Columbus used to get Carter. Not one defender headed to Philly in the two deals which is an indicator (to me at least) that they were looking for NHL ready forwards and that very early pick.

 

[101st_fan]

While reading all this I started asking myself "What kind of player are "we" looking to add?"
And I'm asking everyone else too. As Voldy said, are you guys expecting a 30+ goal guy or a 20+ goal guy? What about a guy who scores in the teens, would that be acceptable?

I looked at some of the trades made this off season and the ones I looked at that involved only prospects and picks would have gotten us ones of Troy Brouer, Eric Fehr, Cogliano, or Kopecky. Would one of these guys be acceptable?

As for the other bigger names all of them involved a combination of the things Enoch said, and one thing he didn't list. What he didn't list is a proven NHL player. Heatley for Havlat; Carter for Vorachek; Setoguchi for Burns. So would we want to give up an Erat, Sk74, or M. Fischer, plus the other parts to get one of these players?

Now the ones "we" could have been in on was Mike Richards and Ryan Smyth.
The other players in the Richards trade was schenn (a 5th overall pick) and Wayne Simmonds. Personally, I think the price combined with Richards' contract may have scared Poile off on this one.

In the Smyth trade, the other player was Colin Fraser. And we know Symth wanted to go back to Edmonton.

Smyth is a non-starter from go. As you said he wanted to go back to Edmonton and he most likely wasn't going to waive his NMC for Nashville.

We can cough up a ton of NHL ready prospects on the blueline. Laakso, Josi, Ekholm, Ellis, COR is probably a couple years away, Blum is still technically a rookie this upcoming season. We simply had the wrong currency to make these deals with Philly.

 

[Enoch]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks. I would like to point out that nothing precludes poile from acquiring an offensive forward prospect that meets said criteria. Heck, it looked like a deal was pending for Ellis on the 9th overall pick which would have been Courtier. So to say the preds could not offer a first, third, and top forward is on the face true. But in reality, quite plausible. Again, I'm not in criticism mode. However, I am trying to point out the capabilities we have as an organization.

 

[hatedandproud]

Viqsi and 101 illustrate the problem, maybe it's not that poile is too cautious or "he didn't even try," maybe in the end we just didn't have what the other side was looking for.

This is one of the points I making in another thread a couple of days ago. It takes two to trade! If the other side doesn't like what we offer then there's no deal.

When I wrote we could have been in on the Richards trade, the could should have been italicized...because we had similar pieces to give up but they were just not the same quality.

I'm going to ask my question again...What kind of player are "you" looking to get? This is aimed at those who say "he has to make it happen" and "he didn't even try." What would make you say "OK, good, he finally got what we need." A 30 goal guy, 20 goal guy???

What about bergfors? Does that even count? I remember last year people deriding the kostitsyn move, now people consider him an important piece.

And I am not a "poile can do no wrong" guy. I just think he has done a pretty damn good job to this point, so I guess I have some faith in him.

 

[Viqsi]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks.

"I don't know how to do it, but I'm certain it's possible."

Not everyone here is as certain.

 

[ThirdManIn]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks. I would like to point out that nothing precludes poile from acquiring an offensive forward prospect that meets said criteria. Heck, it looked like a deal was pending for Ellis on the 9th overall pick which would have been Courtier. So to say the preds could not offer a first, third, and top forward is on the face true. But in reality, quite plausible. Again, I'm not in criticism mode. However, I am trying to point out the capabilities we have as an organization.

Not to nit pick, but the likely reason that trade didn't happen is because Couturier was picked at 8th. It looks like Poile was eyeing him, but when Philly drafted him with the Columbus pick he backed out. Dougie Hamilton went 9th. Also, the Preds could not have offered a first, a third, and a top prospect unless we offered our 2012 first, as our 2011 first had been dealt for Mike Fisher. If you're saying it's plausible that we have the pieces to match the value of the #8, a third, and Vorachek then I can agree. If you're saying it's plausible we could have offered a first, a third, and a top prospect I do not. Even if we could have the difference between adding a top prospect from our system (defenseman) and getting a top prospect that fits team needs (Schenn) is drastic.

 

[101st_fan]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks. I would like to point out that nothing precludes poile from acquiring an offensive forward prospect that meets said criteria. Heck, it looked like a deal was pending for Ellis on the 9th overall pick which would have been Courtier. So to say the preds could not offer a first, third, and top forward is on the face true. But in reality, quite plausible. Again, I'm not in criticism mode. However, I am trying to point out the capabilities we have as an organization.

Creativity only goes so far. If the other team is looking for a certain return ... say a top 6 winger and potential top center ... and we don't have those pieces to move we won't get the player.

We have the capability to make trades with teams looking for DEFENSIVE prospects. We can probably make deals with teams looking for a goalie prospect. Where we lack is in offensive, especially near term potential top six, prospects. Schenn was better than anyone we had in Milwaukee to deal. They needed pieces to fit the triangular hole and we only had the big rectangle blocks .... it doesn't fit no matter how hard you shove.

 

[PredsV82]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks. I would like to point out that nothing precludes poile from acquiring an offensive forward prospect that meets said criteria. Heck, it looked like a deal was pending for Ellis on the 9th overall pick which would have been Courtier. So to say the preds could not offer a first, third, and top forward is on the face true. But in reality, quite plausible. Again, I'm not in criticism mode. However, I am trying to point out the capabilities we have as an organization.

the purpose of the thread wasnt as much to come up with hypothetical scenarios as it was to get people to make their wish lists of who they think would address our needs that might also be available for trade. Trying to say who we would give is not the point.

So just tell me who you think would be A)a good fit for our needs and B) would be available

 

[glenngineer]

I had started a thread in the main trade and free agent boards about Weber to Toronto for Schenn and Kulemin and a first. I saw so many bad posts from Toronto fans that I felt I'd throw an offer out there. The fans who know a thing or two thought it was a bit of an overpayment but plausible but they mostly came back with, we're not good trading partners. They need help up front. It would be silly to trade one of their best forwards considering it didn't fill a need, even if it was for Weber. I don't think we were good trading partners with Philly, plain and simple. The return for Carter and Richards were forwards and high draft picks, neither of which we had.

If I'm Poile, I go to Suter and Rinne, get them signed long term, trade Weber for Parise, re-sign Parise long term and be done with it. We have enough talent on the blue line to absorb the loss of Weber and we'd get the talent up front we've always needed in Parise. Couple that with the possibility of a Radulov return next season and I'd say we are serious contenders. It's a bold move but it fills our needs and NJ's all at the same time.

 

[RaiderDoug]

If I'm Poile, I go to Suter and Rinne, get them signed long term, trade Weber for Parise, re-sign Parise long term and be done with it. We have enough talent on the blue line to absorb the loss of Weber and we'd get the talent up front we've always needed in Parise. Couple that with the possibility of a Radulov return next season and I'd say we are serious contenders. It's a bold move but it fills our needs and NJ's all at the same time.

That's fine. It's a bold and creative scenario. Bold and creative doesn't describe this franchise.

Is that more likely or is the following scenario more likely:

Suter doesn't sign, goes to UFA and signs a mega-deal with Detroit. Weber, already pissed off, signs another 1 year deal, then gets traded off at the deadline for a Kovalchuk like return. We have significant $$$$'s in the bank, but UFA period comes around, and DP deems all those guys too risky, bad fits, too expensive. We spend our money by resigning guys like Halischuk, Smithson, and Fisher to long-term deals. We go into a season with a bunch of young high upside kids, and point to 2014-15 when some of those young kids might mature. We eek into the playoffs each year as a bottom seed, get bounced in the 1st round because we can't score goals, and then spend the offseason lamenting that we can't fix our PP.

 

[Paranoid Android]

That's fine. It's a bold and creative scenario. Bold and creative doesn't describe this franchise.

Is that more likely or is the following scenario more likely:

Suter doesn't sign, goes to UFA and signs a mega-deal with Detroit. Weber, already pissed off, signs another 1 year deal, then gets traded off at the deadline for a Kovalchuk like return. We have significant $$$$'s in the bank, but UFA period comes around, and DP deems all those guys too risky, bad fits, too expensive. We spend our money by resigning guys like Halischuk, Smithson, and Fisher to long-term deals. We go into a season with a bunch of young high upside kids, and point to 2014-15 when some of those young kids might mature. We eek into the playoffs each year as a bottom seed, get bounced in the 1st round because we can't score goals, and then spend the offseason lamenting that we can't fix our PP.

Probably somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, closer to glen's scenario though.

 

[lstcyr]

Residency now

OT: Where?

Did you think the residency matching day was a little like draft day?

Just curious. I remember when my daughter went through it and I thought it was an interesting way of handling the assignments.

Of course, your free agency comes in three(?) years.

 

[glenngineer]

That's fine. It's a bold and creative scenario. Bold and creative doesn't describe this franchise.

Is that more likely or is the following scenario more likely:

Suter doesn't sign, goes to UFA and signs a mega-deal with Detroit. Weber, already pissed off, signs another 1 year deal, then gets traded off at the deadline for a Kovalchuk like return. We have significant $$$$'s in the bank, but UFA period comes around, and DP deems all those guys too risky, bad fits, too expensive. We spend our money by resigning guys like Halischuk, Smithson, and Fisher to long-term deals. We go into a season with a bunch of young high upside kids, and point to 2014-15 when some of those young kids might mature. We eek into the playoffs each year as a bottom seed, get bounced in the 1st round because we can't score goals, and then spend the offseason lamenting that we can't fix our PP.

And where is Rinne in all of this? While I agree any of what you said could happen, my scenario nets us our goal scorer who's best friends with Suter. We'd still have the money to pull it off and still be able to add to what's already a solid roster. Suter leaving maybe a foregone conclusion though. He's unrestricted and we have no idea if he's happy here.

Poile needs to decide which two to keep, sign them long term, trade the other and get an elite forward in return.

 

[PredsV82]

OT: Where?

Did you think the residency matching day was a little like draft day?

Just curious. I remember when my daughter went through it and I thought it was an interesting way of handling the assignments.

Of course, your free agency comes in three(?) years.

5 to 7 years if he's going to be a surgeon

 

[Viqsi]

That's fine. It's a bold and creative scenario. Bold and creative doesn't describe this franchise.

Is that more likely or is the following scenario more likely:

Suter doesn't sign, goes to UFA and signs a mega-deal with Detroit. Weber, already pissed off, signs another 1 year deal, then gets traded off at the deadline for a Kovalchuk like return. We have significant $$$$'s in the bank, but UFA period comes around, and DP deems all those guys too risky, bad fits, too expensive. We spend our money by resigning guys like Halischuk, Smithson, and Fisher to long-term deals. We go into a season with a bunch of young high upside kids, and point to 2014-15 when some of those young kids might mature. We eek into the playoffs each year as a bottom seed, get bounced in the 1st round because we can't score goals, and then spend the offseason lamenting that we can't fix our PP.

I disagree. Suter would sign with Columbus. Because I WANTS IT SO BAD, PRECIOUSSSSS.

 

[token grinder]

i think the thing everyone is forgetting is that if suter or weber doesnt resign, that is 14 million bucks that open up to sign others. there is no way to keep a roster loaded with kids.

 

[roseyc]

Like I said, it takes creativity. I am not going to build a hypothetical trade scenario just for kicks. I would like to point out that nothing precludes poile from acquiring an offensive forward prospect that meets said criteria. Heck, it looked like a deal was pending for Ellis on the 9th overall pick which would have been Courtier. So to say the preds could not offer a first, third, and top forward is on the face true. But in reality, quite plausible. Again, I'm not in criticism mode. However, I am trying to point out the capabilities we have as an organization.

I understand what your saying. The bottom line is that well we didn't have this or that but nothing is being done and the safe thing to do is nothing and nothing is the only thing we see. Then we do the same thing depending the O'Reilly types to take up the slack. That is not going to happen unless he can put in 25 goals and the odds are against that. This club needs a legit 30 to 35 scorer without that we are the same team as always you subtract here and another prospect there and play the hope game with everything unless you take a risk

 

[RaiderDoug]

i think the thing everyone is forgetting is that if suter or weber doesnt resign, that is 14 million bucks that open up to sign others. there is no way to keep a roster loaded with kids.

All free agents are too risky, too injury prone, bad fits, or too expensive.

We're going to give that cash to Smithson, Halischuk, and other grinders.

 

[roseyc]

All free agents are too risky, too injury prone, bad fits, or too expensive.

We're going to give that cash to Smithson, Halischuk, and other grinders.

LOL!!!!