Shea Weber

[roseyc]

I had started a thread in the main trade and free agent boards about Weber to Toronto for Schenn and Kulemin and a first. I saw so many bad posts from Toronto fans that I felt I'd throw an offer out there. The fans who know a thing or two thought it was a bit of an overpayment but plausible but they mostly came back with, we're not good trading partners. They need help up front. It would be silly to trade one of their best forwards considering it didn't fill a need, even if it was for Weber. I don't think we were good trading partners with Philly, plain and simple. The return for Carter and Richards were forwards and high draft picks, neither of which we had.

If I'm Poile, I go to Suter and Rinne, get them signed long term, trade Weber for Parise, re-sign Parise long term and be done with it. We have enough talent on the blue line to absorb the loss of Weber and we'd get the talent up front we've always needed in Parise. Couple that with the possibility of a Radulov return next season and I'd say we are serious contenders. It's a bold move but it fills our needs and NJ's all at the same time.

I think you made a previous post that we need to keep the 3 together I agree with this move more than any other. Poile has to overpay to get Parise now. Parise and the big 3 then you take your shot. If we have to give up 2 first and 2defenseman and Wilson then do it because at the end of it we are going to rebuild again then and we would be comfortable with it knowing that we gave it our best shot. Of all the mock trades Parise is the only person that make sense and can be had but you have to overpay. But will Poile do it

 

[ThirdManIn]

@rosey: While taking risks one has to play the "hope game". Just a thought. (I'm posting from my phone, and somehow I messed up while typing "thought". Spell check had changed it to where that read "Just a thousand guts." I thought that was hilarious.)

 

[Viqsi]

All free agents are too risky, too injury prone, bad fits, or too expensive.

We're going to give that cash to Smithson, Halischuk, and other grinders.

...I swear, it's exactly like watching cynical comments on Howson last offseason. Creeeeepy.

 

[Paranoid Android]

All free agents are too risky, too injury prone, bad fits, or too expensive.

We're going to give that cash to Smithson, Halischuk, and other grinders.

His point was that we'd be under the cap and even more under our spending limit... so your scenario is impossible. Unless you are trying to suggest that Smithson and Halischuk are going to get $4M contracts...

 

[roseyc]

@rosey: While taking risks one has to play the "hope game". Just a thought. (I'm posting from my phone, and somehow I messed up while typing "thought". Spell check had changed it to where that read "Just a thousand guts." I thought that was hilarious.)

Forsberg was a risk that didn't pan out. Fisher was a risk that did. I thought Fisher was one of the reasons we went as far as we did. He didn't score a lot but his defensive play in round 2 along with Weber and Suter shut down the highest scoring line in the regular season ...The Sedin line which in turn let Legwand loose to score and he did.
It all risk if you play the kids and hope they develop or FA's or vets in trades hope they live up to their potential or exceed it. All could work or fail and then it's how you spin it from there

 

[Enoch]

Name the top 3 level forward prospects in the Preds organization. We have all sorts of top blueline prospects. What Philly took in return were forward prospects and a very early pick in this year's draft. None of Latta, Bourque, Watson, or Beck are the same level as Schenn or the #8 overall pick that went back in the Carter and Richards deals.

So ... for Carter we could have ponied up Wilson, Josi/Ellis/Blum/Ekholm, the #38 overall, maybe Watson/Latta/Bourque. The Jackets sent Voracek (15g, 48pts avg the past two seasons, RFA next summer), the #8 overall, and a 3rd.

Let me see what you build as an offer that beats what Columbus used to get Carter. Not one defender headed to Philly in the two deals which is an indicator (to me at least) that they were looking for NHL ready forwards and that very early pick.

You missed my point. Again, it is about creativity. I used the example of the Ellis non-trade to point out that we easily could have acquired that early first round draft pick that we lacked. In other words, if Philly had to have that top ten pick rather than a top notch defensive prospect, we could have acquired it with some ease. Hypothetically, then, you simply throw wilson, that pick or Ellis, and a third round pick into the deal. Then it is up to Philly to decide who they like better Voracek or Wilson, and if you value Voracek more, the onus is on Poile to improve that third round draft selection to a mid-level prospect or a 2nd round pick. As I stated originally, I hate making hypothetical trade ideas, but to say that the Predators were out of a trade scenario because they had already traded away their first round selection is short-sighted. If Jeff Carter was truly our target, then it is a failure on our GMs part for not getting him in Nashville colors because the cost was not that prohibitive and was fairly easy for us to swallow. I am of the opinion that Poile, for whatever reason, never really entertained adding Carter, likely due to the long contract and injury concerns. Too much risk for Poile.

3 top forward prospects would be Borque/Beck/Latta - I believe.

In terms of trade targets, you have got me. Right now, I just do not know. I mean, we all want a guy like Malkin or Stamkos to come to the Predators, but the likelyhood of that happening is marginal. This leaves us with the flawed talents or pending free agents. Ideally, the Predators go after Zach Parise. He would fit this team, and its needs like a glove. Outside of Parise, you have the uninspired Semin. Then you move down the list to lesser players that can fill a top 6 role like AK, etc. At this moment, I just cannot provide a list. I have been so busy with work that to produce such a list simply isn't possible, and maybe part of that reason is because there are not a lot of guys available. I suspect around training camp, more and more players will become available, and around Christmas, there should be a very good view of who will be on the market.

OT: Where?

Did you think the residency matching day was a little like draft day?

Just curious. I remember when my daughter went through it and I thought it was an interesting way of handling the assignments.

Of course, your free agency comes in three(?) years.

I am at Erlanger in Chattanooga doing Family Medicine residency. It was a lot like draft day. Crazy and exciting . I am happy with where I ended up as it was my first selection, and I love Chattanooga - beautiful town, lots to do outdoors, and a great program.

 

[101st_fan]

You missed my point. Again, it is about creativity. I used the example of the Ellis non-trade to point out that we easily could have acquired that early first round draft pick that we lacked. In other words, if Philly had to have that top ten pick rather than a top notch defensive prospect, we could have acquired it with some ease. Hypothetically, then, you simply throw wilson, that pick or Ellis, and a third round pick into the deal. Then it is up to Philly to decide who they like better Voracek or Wilson, and if you value Voracek more, the onus is on Poile to improve that third round draft selection to a mid-level prospect or a 2nd round pick. As I stated originally, I hate making hypothetical trade ideas, but to say that the Predators were out of a trade scenario because they had already traded away their first round selection is short-sighted. If Jeff Carter was truly our target, then it is a failure on our GMs part for not getting him in Nashville colors because the cost was not that prohibitive and was fairly easy for us to swallow. I am of the opinion that Poile, for whatever reason, never really entertained adding Carter, likely due to the long contract and injury concerns. Too much risk for Poile.

3 top forward prospects would be Borque/Beck/Latta - I believe.

In terms of trade targets, you have got me. Right now, I just do not know. I mean, we all want a guy like Malkin or Stamkos to come to the Predators, but the likelyhood of that happening is marginal. This leaves us with the flawed talents or pending free agents. Ideally, the Predators go after Zach Parise. He would fit this team, and its needs like a glove. Outside of Parise, you have the uninspired Semin. Then you move down the list to lesser players that can fill a top 6 role like AK, etc. At this moment, I just cannot provide a list. I have been so busy with work that to produce such a list simply isn't possible, and maybe part of that reason is because there are not a lot of guys available. I suspect around training camp, more and more players will become available, and around Christmas, there should be a very good view of who will be on the market.



I am at Erlanger in Chattanooga doing Family Medicine residency. It was a lot like draft day. Crazy and exciting . I am happy with where I ended up as it was my first selection, and I love Chattanooga - beautiful town, lots to do outdoors, and a great program.

You're not looking for creativity, you're looking for LaLaLand. Neither Bourque/Beck/Latta are anywhere near Schenn. Philly was looking for forwards, not defensemen. They admitted as much. What we have to offer is in net and on the blueline. What Columbus had to offer was the #8 overall pick and what LA had to offer was a top forward prospect. For this particular set of transactions, the Preds simply did not have the right assets to complete the trade. It's like trying to walk into McDonalds with a Burger King coupon ... it won't get you a thing.

 

[Enoch]

You're not looking for creativity, you're looking for LaLaLand. Neither Bourque/Beck/Latta are anywhere near Schenn. Philly was looking for forwards, not defensemen. They admitted as much. What we have to offer is in net and on the blueline. What Columbus had to offer was the #8 overall pick and what LA had to offer was a top forward prospect. For this particular set of transactions, the Preds simply did not have the right assets to complete the trade. It's like trying to walk into McDonalds with a Burger King coupon ... it won't get you a thing.

I didn't know that because you have some of the best goaltending and defensive prospects in the league, you are never able to go out, and say, trade for a top offensive minded prospect. It isn't lala land. It happens with some regularity with GMs around the NHL, NFL, MLB, and any other professional sport. Just because David Poile has been ever reluctant to make a prospect for prospect trade does not make the idea fantasy. Nor is it fantasy to believe that when trying to complete a trade for a player that you want, you go out and get the pieces you need to make that trade happen if your current prospects do not fit the bill. If you need a first round pick and you do not have one, you trade for one. Is that so hard to contemplate? This is obviously more difficult than a one for one or a trade built around current team assets, but it is again, hardly fantasy. You can try to pass this off as such, but honestly, it just means that your expectations of a general manager are far less encompassing than what many general managers regularly do around the league on a consistent basis. Lastly, I never claimed that our top offensive prospects were on par with Schenn. I completely agree with your comment that our prospects are not on par with him. For some reason, you are trying to foist some random point of view on to my statements that I do not want any part of. It is obvious that our forward prospects are not on par with others around the league. We have several good prospects, but there are zero elite talents in that stable. It does not mean that we have a weak system. It does not mean that we are unable to acquire top-notch offensive prospects. It does not preclude us from trading with teams whose major needs are offensive prospects. It just makes things less straight forward.

 

[hfboardsuser]

It happens with some regularity with GMs around the NHL, NFL, MLB, and any other professional sport.

So you should be able to provide at least a handful of examples involving teams trading bluechip prospects for one another, correct?

 

[101st_fan]

I didn't know that because you have some of the best goaltending and defensive prospects in the league, you are never able to go out, and say, trade for a top offensive minded prospect. It isn't lala land. It happens with some regularity with GMs around the NHL, NFL, MLB, and any other professional sport. Just because David Poile has been ever reluctant to make a prospect for prospect trade does not make the idea fantasy. Nor is it fantasy to believe that when trying to complete a trade for a player that you want, you go out and get the pieces you need to make that trade happen if your current prospects do not fit the bill. If you need a first round pick and you do not have one, you trade for one. Is that so hard to contemplate? This is obviously more difficult than a one for one or a trade built around current team assets, but it is again, hardly fantasy. You can try to pass this off as such, but honestly, it just means that your expectations of a general manager are far less encompassing than what many general managers regularly do around the league on a consistent basis. Lastly, I never claimed that our top offensive prospects were on par with Schenn. I completely agree with your comment that our prospects are not on par with him. For some reason, you are trying to foist some random point of view on to my statements that I do not want any part of. It is obvious that our forward prospects are not on par with others around the league. We have several good prospects, but there are zero elite talents in that stable. It does not mean that we have a weak system. It does not mean that we are unable to acquire top-notch offensive prospects. It does not preclude us from trading with teams whose major needs are offensive prospects. It just makes things less straight forward.

That "random point of view" would be pragmatism. You're acting like bluechip moves are common and that flipping our defensive prospects for forward prospects would have been easy. Your "creativity" here requires not only that to happen, but for Poile to have been able to pull it off in a short period of time to get Richards or Carter. Once again, for this set of deals we did not have the right assets to pull it off.

Philly wanted forwards with a certain set of characteristics. We didn't have them, still don't have them, nor does it appear there was any sort of time to pull off the type of asset flipping you're entire concept depends upon. I'm trying to remember the last time a three way deal didn't take weeks to complete.

There are still plenty of teams that could use the type of prospects we do have in the organization. Because there are other teams that could use them, doesn't mean that Philly wanted or needed them.

 

[glenngineer]

That "random point of view" would be pragmatism. You're acting like bluechip moves are common and that flipping our defensive prospects for forward prospects would have been easy. Your "creativity" here requires not only that to happen, but for Poile to have been able to pull it off in a short period of time to get Richards or Carter. Once again, for this set of deals we did not have the right assets to pull it off.

Philly wanted forwards with a certain set of characteristics. We didn't have them, still don't have them, nor does it appear there was any sort of time to pull off the type of asset flipping you're entire concept depends upon. I'm trying to remember the last time a three way deal didn't take weeks to complete.

There are still plenty of teams that could use the type of prospects we do have in the organization. Because there are other teams that could use them, doesn't mean that Philly wanted or needed them.

And we're basically looking at flipping one of our defensive prospects for a guy like Schenn and as good as our blue line prospects are, none would net a guy like Schenn and the only one that might, Blum, isn't available right now as he's too important for us. Would Ellis or Josi landed us a first, probably but who would've filled the role of Vorachek? It would be replacing one of our top 6 with a different guy and as much as Carter fills the net, is it worth giving up one of our top 6 and a top blue line prospect. I'm not sure that was the answer either.

 

[Enoch]

That "random point of view" would be pragmatism. You're acting like bluechip moves are common and that flipping our defensive prospects for forward prospects would have been easy. Your "creativity" here requires not only that to happen, but for Poile to have been able to pull it off in a short period of time to get Richards or Carter. Once again, for this set of deals we did not have the right assets to pull it off.

Philly wanted forwards with a certain set of characteristics. We didn't have them, still don't have them, nor does it appear there was any sort of time to pull off the type of asset flipping you're entire concept depends upon. I'm trying to remember the last time a three way deal didn't take weeks to complete.

There are still plenty of teams that could use the type of prospects we do have in the organization. Because there are other teams that could use them, doesn't mean that Philly wanted or needed them.

Fair point. I concede the majority of your statements. I think Carter was available for a reasonable sort of time. At least, rumors would indicate that he was semi-available for part of the regular season and definitely available once the off-season began. Richards - no idea. Regardless, I think your viewpoint is more than fair. And again, I'm not saying that it is an easy set of circumstances. I am merely saying that their is the potential to overcome obstacles, but it would require a very active and creative GM. Paul Holmgren is a major example of a pro-active GM that gets what he wants (even if some fans would argue at cost to the team).

I guess my point is merely that at some point, regardless of the circumstances, Poile has to get something done, or he will be judged accordingly - fair or unfair.

 

[Legionnaire11]

I guess my point is merely that at some point, regardless of the circumstances, Poile has to get something done, or he will be judged accordingly - fair or unfair.

It's completely fair. Poile is ultimately responsible for making sure the Preds have solid depth at every position, not just defense and goaltending. He has to put the team in position to make deals that need to get done, not sit on his glut of D prospects waiting for a deal to come to him.

We have a lot of excuses as to why this or that isn't Poile's fault, but in the world of professional sports, it is his fault. If there's no accountability, there's no hope.

 

[PredsV82]

Fair point. I concede the majority of your statements. I think Carter was available for a reasonable sort of time. At least, rumors would indicate that he was semi-available for part of the regular season and definitely available once the off-season began. Richards - no idea. Regardless, I think your viewpoint is more than fair. And again, I'm not saying that it is an easy set of circumstances. I am merely saying that their is the potential to overcome obstacles, but it would require a very active and creative GM. Paul Holmgren is a major example of a pro-active GM that gets what he wants (even if some fans would argue at cost to the team).

I guess my point is merely that at some point, regardless of the circumstances, Poile has to get something done, or he will be judged accordingly - fair or unfair.

Of course Poile will do something. The truth is he always does.(Fisher, Goc, Kostitsyn, Obrien, and thats just in the last 2 years)What everyone needs to accept is that it may not be a big name player we would all love to see. Those types of deals are REALLY rare.

My prediction is poile adds a decent scoring asset(ie an RFA or a player under contract for more than the currrent year) either before the season or as soon as feasible, and then at the deadline he will make a play for a high profile rental player, like Parise.

 

[gopreds19]

Of course Poile will do something. The truth is he always does.(Fisher, Goc, Kostitsyn, Obrien, and thats just in the last 2 years)What everyone needs to accept is that it may not be a big name player we would all love to see. Those types of deals are REALLY rare.

My prediction is poile adds a decent scoring asset(ie an RFA or a player under contract for more than the currrent year) either before the season or as soon as feasible, and then at the deadline he will make a play for a high profile rental player, like Parise.

Any idea then why he made the Franson/Lombardi trade. All I've heard was that it was to either bring in more scoring or get Weber locked up long term.

Neither of your predictions justify giving away two players for nothing. Did Poile just not conceive that he couldn't get Weber to commit long term?

 

[Paranoid Android]

Any idea then why he made the Franson/Lombardi trade. All I've heard was that it was to either bring in more scoring or get Weber locked up long term.

Neither of your predictions justify giving away two players for nothing. Did Poile just not conceive that he couldn't get Weber to commit long term?

If we didn't get rid of Lombardi, then we would be completely done making major additions, even at the deadline. Our budget space would be gone, except for maybe a minor $1-2M addition. With Lombardi gone, we can now make a deal when it presents itself. I wouldn't be surprised if we "win" the trade-deadline sweepstakes, like we did in 2007.

I personally think we are lucky to have gotten rid of Lombardi, even at the cost of losing Franson. This is how I look at it: We traded a 1st, 3rd (conditional), and Franson for upgrading a concussed Lombardi to Fisher. A little steep but worth it IMO. (This may not be the best analysis now that I look at it )

 

[Enoch]

It's completely fair. Poile is ultimately responsible for making sure the Preds have solid depth at every position, not just defense and goaltending. He has to put the team in position to make deals that need to get done, not sit on his glut of D prospects waiting for a deal to come to him.

We have a lot of excuses as to why this or that isn't Poile's fault, but in the world of professional sports, it is his fault. If there's no accountability, there's no hope.

This is my stance to a T.

 

[nomorekids]

If we didn't get rid of Lombardi, then we would be completely done making major additions, even at the deadline. Our budget space would be gone, except for maybe a minor $1-2M addition. With Lombardi gone, we can now make a deal when it presents itself. I wouldn't be surprised if we "win" the trade-deadline sweepstakes, like we did in 2007.

I personally think we are lucky to have gotten rid of Lombardi, even at the cost of losing Franson. This is how I look at it: We traded a 1st, 3rd (conditional), and Franson for upgrading a concussed Lombardi to Fisher. A little steep but worth it IMO. (This may not be the best analysis now that I look at it )

That's beyond steep, actually.

 

[Roman Yoshi]

This is my stance to a T.

Mine as well.

It is unthinkable we are going to enter the season with

SK Fisher Erat
Hornqvist Legwand Bergfors
Spaling Smithson Tootoo
Wilson Cal O stortini/Hals/Bam Bam

That lineup isn't going to scare anyone. I really hope Poile adds a forward by the time the season rolls around. If we have this lineup come november, I don't see how we can be above 10th in the west.

My top choices would be Andrei Kos or Bryan Little. Pipe dream Parise

 

[Roman Yoshi]

If we didn't get rid of Lombardi, then we would be completely done making major additions, even at the deadline. Our budget space would be gone, except for maybe a minor $1-2M addition. With Lombardi gone, we can now make a deal when it presents itself. I wouldn't be surprised if we "win" the trade-deadline sweepstakes, like we did in 2007.

I personally think we are lucky to have gotten rid of Lombardi, even at the cost of losing Franson. This is how I look at it: We traded a 1st, 3rd (conditional), and Franson for upgrading a concussed Lombardi to Fisher. A little steep but worth it IMO. (This may not be the best analysis now that I look at it )

Oh my god we got bent over a table if you look at it that way.

 

[token grinder]

I don't think we give our forwards enough credit. It isn't like they are bums. It is obvious none of them are top 3 talent, but we have what 5 established top 6 guys (legwand, erat, horn, fisher, sk,) two potential top six guys (wilson, bergfors). And that doesn't even take into account that we really don't know what we have in geoffrion, beck, halischuck. Are they grinders or do they have top 6 potential? We are solid as a group, but we lack an offensive gamebreaker.

 

[Legionnaire11]

We do have good forwards, good enough to consistently make the playoffs (after a roller coaster season). We're lacking the one additional piece that can (hopefully) provide a little more scoring consistency, and be considered a threat that has to be accounted for. Even if other team's keyed on that guy, it would certainly ease the pressure on the rest of the lineup and create favorable matchups elsewhere in the lines. Doesn't have to be an Ovechkin, Kariya wasn't an elite player when he was here, but he kept 3rd liners off of the first line and you knew there was a chance the Preds could create some chances when he hit the ice.

 

[BigFatCat999]

It has to be said, which would you rather have; Franson or Josi or Ellis?
We knew what we had with Franson Josi and Ellis have much higher ceilings

 

[PredsV82]

Any idea then why he made the Franson/Lombardi trade. All I've heard was that it was to either bring in more scoring or get Weber locked up long term.

Neither of your predictions justify giving away two players for nothing. Did Poile just not conceive that he couldn't get Weber to commit long term?

what part of clearing dead salary dont you get?

Poile can and will use that money at some point. just because he hasnt done so yet doesnt mean it was 'for nothing"

 

[PredsV82]

Mine as well.

It is unthinkable we are going to enter the season with

SK Fisher Erat
Hornqvist Legwand Bergfors
Spaling Smithson Tootoo
Wilson Cal O stortini/Hals/Bam Bam

That lineup isn't going to scare anyone. I really hope Poile adds a forward by the time the season rolls around. If we have this lineup come november, I don't see how we can be above 10th in the west.

My top choices would be Andrei Kos or Bryan Little. Pipe dream Parise

well, that lineup did pretty well last year considering the pieces that are missing (Sully, Lombardi, Ward, Dumont) didnt do diddly squat for us last season.