Player Discussion Shea Weber - Man Mountain or Gentle Giant? Edition

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Oh my.

I have a hard believing you actually think that. I don't even feel like arguing that point.

That offense at the sacrifice of defense doesn't necessarily get you ahead, particularly with the lineup we've iced in recent years?

Yeah, I wouldn't want to argue that if I were you, either.

 

[E82]

How's PK doing in Nashville? Is he leading them to a Conference final? When the trade went down many on this board claimed that the Preds had just become the team with the best defence and a true contender. What happened? The Pixie dust didn't work?[/QUOTE

Pixie dust Man Mountain, Crease clearer, Leadership, Intangibles, Team Canada? I remember that pixie dust stinking up this board even more.

 

[Censored Toad]

How's PK doing in Nashville? Is he leading them to a Conference final? When the trade went down many on this board claimed that the Preds had just become the team with the best defence and a true contender. What happened? The Pixie dust didn't work?[/QUOTE

Pixie dust Man Mountain, Crease clearer, Leadership, Intangibles, Team Canada? I remember that pixie dust stinking up this board even more.

That is a fair point. Webber was suppose to bring said items and besides his wicked shot on the PP Iam not seeing what was advertised..

 

[Habs Icing]

I don't care. Weber is a disappointment and needs to step up. PK has been playing solid hockey as of late, doesn't matter to me though. My focus is on Webby (the one that is a hab) and the fact that he's appearing more and more like a fraud as every game passes.

If PK doesn't matter why then bring him up in the post I quoted from you. Let me ask you do you put your goal posts on roller skates or hockey skates to help with your moving of the goal posts?

 

[E82]

That offense at the sacrifice of defense doesn't necessarily get you ahead, particularly with the lineup we've iced in recent years?

Yeah, I wouldn't want to argue that if I were you, either.

But this team issues have never been defence related. Offense has always been the issue, not leadership and character and defense.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

That is a fair point. Webber was suppose to bring said items and besides his wicked shot on the PP Iam not seeing what was advertised..

And for the most part, until you start collecting and NHL paycheck, or one from a media outlet that covers them, you won't. There are more than enough people inside the game talking about it, though, if people are willing to uncover their ears/eyes.

 

[The Nightman]

People have always liked to be entertained at hockey games. At least as long as they've been charging admission, anyway. What HAS changed, is how entertainment has shaped bias(es) in actual player evaluation. It's certainly a more common phenomenon, and in my experience more prevalent among younger people (hence my admittedly lazy lumping of "millennial") to toss aside track record and measurables of performance in favour of "style" and/or "compelling personality".

What has Weber accomplished? With his style, what has he accomplished over any other defenceman that has flash a pizzazz in their game? Letang, Burns, Karlsson, Keith, Doughty, Hedman etc, these guys take chances, can move the puck and support the offence at 5 on 5, what makes Weber superior?

If Subban was a poor hockey player your theory would stand, but in reality he's been one of the best over the years.

 

[E82]

And for the most part, until you start collecting and NHL paycheck, or one from a media outlet that covers them, you won't. There are more than enough people inside the game talking about it, though, if people are willing to uncover their ears/eyes.

Don't know why you quoted me on that. I wasn't the one who wrote that. Secondly, why don't you do us a favour and post those great things Weber is doing right according to those collecting paycheques. I guess because they are on a payroll that excludes them from any criticism.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Weber is WAYYYYYY better than any other D at
- "stuff" that can't be seen
- non-measurable "stuff"


convenient...

 

[The Nightman]

If PK doesn't matter why then bring him up in the post I quoted from you. Let me ask you do you put your goal posts on roller skates or hockey skates to help with your moving of the goal posts?

I originally responded to a post that mentioned PK, can you please try to keep up?

The trade happened man, get over it. Let's discuss Weber and his poor, inconsistent play rather than deflecting it all back to PK. I don't get any satisfaction or feel any sort of relief when I see bumbling Weber come out on the ice and disappoint for the gargantuan cap hit that he hauls with him.

It's about the habs! Not PK, he's a Pred. Could I make that anymore clear?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

But this team issues have never been defence related. Offense has always been the issue, not leadership and character and defense.

But that's not what I said. I said sacrificing defense for more offense. If PK can't produce those points while also playing better defense, he's not necessarily more effective than a lower scoring defenseman who DOES - see a guy like Vlasic for one example among a spectrum of others, including Weber. Vlasic has never even broken 40 points in his life, yet I think there are plenty who put him on close to the same level of overall effectiveness as a guy like PK (or Weber, for that matter) who is expected to put up 50-60 per year.

But I disagree about leadership and character not being issues. I've been around to see players from Chelios to Ribeiro shipped out of town for said reasons, there have been more since, and there will be more to come. If offense, not leadership/character, was actually of paramount importance I doubt Bergevin goes through with the PK/Weber trade. And I bet if you asked Nashville's GM right now, they'd entertain the option of a mulligan.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Weber is WAYYYYYY better than any other D at
- "stuff" that can't be seen
- non-measurable "stuff"


convenient...

Besides things like goals, goals against, time on ice, points in the standings, etc. "Minor" measurable things.

 

[ECWHSWI]

But that's not what I said. I said sacrificing defense for more offense. If PK can't produce those points while also playing better defense, he's not necessarily more effective than a lower scoring defenseman who DOES - see a guy like Vlasic for one example among a spectrum of others, including Weber. Vlasic has never even broken 40 points in his life, yet I think there are plenty who put him on close to the same level of overall effectiveness as a guy like PK (or Weber, for that matter) who is expected to put up 50-60 per year.

But I disagree about leadership and character not being issues. I've been around to see players from Chelios to Ribeiro shipped out of town for said reasons, there have been more since, and there will be more to come. If offense, not leadership/character, was actually of paramount importance I doubt Bergevin goes through with the PK/Weber trade. And I bet if you asked Nashville's GM right now, they'd entertain the option of a mulligan.

watching the Habs the last 2 months or so... don't you think leadership is still an issue ? ? ?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

What has Weber accomplished? With his style, what has he accomplished over any other defenceman that has flash a pizzazz in their game? Letang, Burns, Karlsson, Keith, Doughty, Hedman etc, these guys take chances, can move the puck and support the offence at 5 on 5, what makes Weber superior?

If Subban was a poor hockey player your theory would stand, but in reality he's been one of the best over the years.

No one is disputing whether or not he's "one of the best". The discussion is centred around whether or not we're better off now, and I would say objectively and measurably yes. But again, I'm not overly persuaded by "style" or "swagger" when it comes to conversations like this.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Besides things like goals, goals against, time on ice, points in the standings, etc. "Minor" measurable things.

really...



now I know you arent serious.

pointless discussion, you keep thinking whatever you want of Weber.

Bye.

 

[E82]

But that's not what I said. I said sacrificing defense for more offense. If PK can't produce those points while also playing better defense, he's not necessarily more effective than a lower scoring defenseman who DOES - see a guy like Vlasic for one example among a spectrum of others, including Weber. Vlasic has never even broken 40 points in his life, yet I think there are plenty who put him on close to the same level of overall effectiveness as a guy like PK (or Weber, for that matter) who is expected to put up 50-60 per year.

But I disagree about leadership and character not being issues. I've been around to see players from Chelios to Ribeiro shipped out of town for said reasons, there have been more since, and there will be more to come. If offense, not leadership/character, was actually of paramount importance I doubt Bergevin goes through with the PK/Weber trade. And I bet if you asked Nashville's GM right now, they'd entertain the option of a mulligan.

What makes you believe this?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Bye.

See ya.

 

[E82]

No one is disputing whether or not he's "one of the best". The discussion is centred around whether or not we're better off now, and I would say objectively and measurably yes. But again, I'm not overly persuaded by "style" or "swagger" when it comes to conversations like this.

But how is it style and swagger when we traded one of the best 5on5 point producing Dman and notorious play off producer in recent memory for a player who had a worst plusminus on a supposedly "better" team last year?

 

[ECWHSWI]

But how is it style and swagger when we traded one of the best 5on5 point producing Dman and notorious play off producer in recent memory for a player who had a worst plusminus on a supposedly "better" team last year?

people are enamoured with Weber style actually,... they don't prefer Weber because of efficiency but because of his style... him not moving much and not taking risks gives the illusion of safety.

 

[Habs]

If this were true then Nashville should be a better team than last year. They're not. Mind explaining your "Subban, who is undoubtedly better than Weber". What criteria are you using?

He can't, and he won't.

 

[E82]

He can't, and he won't.

Isn't it unanimous that PK drives the offence better than Weber? I mean aren't we scrambling now for a PMD? You can give the defensive positioning and stick play advantage to Weber if you want but this team's issue has always been lack of scoring.

 

[The Nightman]

But how is it style and swagger when we traded one of the best 5on5 point producing Dman and notorious play off producer in recent memory for a player who had a worst plusminus on a supposedly "better" team last year?

It isn't, it's just what some like to repeat to themselves, over and over.

Kinda like how points in the standings can be attributed to a single player apparently, some will say anything.

 

[BadHabit]

Except for the actual defense from our #1 defenseman. 2.8 GA/60 (Subban last year - c.f. 2.7 with NSH this year) is much, much higher than 1.5 (Weber this year). In fact, Subban's only managed a career best 2.3 GA/60 during Price's Lindsay/Vezina season in which we were a 110 point team in the standings, which is still 50% worse than Shea Weber so far. And Weber isn't playing with Markov.

So... yeah.

Um... no? I'd like to know where you get your Donald Trump style "alternative facts" from. Your numbers are off.

From here:

Shea Weber is at 2.25GA/60 this year in all scenarios. PK is at 2.91 with a leaky sieve in nets. Last year Weber was at 2.97GA/60 with Nashville. Last year, PK with scrubs in the net was at 2.81GA/60.

The Price Vezina year in which you say Subban only was at 2.3GA/60 he:

1. Played the most of any player on the Habs. Period. 2,148 mins and 40 seconds. Averaged 26.12 mins a game.
2. Had 2.29 GA/60, which led team for all d man, and tied with Tom Gilbert who played 10 games and 800 mins less.
3. Over the same period, had a 3.38 GF/60, which also led the team for all D man.

You have to go back to 2011 to get Weber similar numbers for GF (where he had 3.59), and that was the only year in his career that was close. Finally, since 2010 with Weber playing 443 games and PK playing 432...

Weber - 2.53 GA/60, PK - 2.41 GA/60
Weber - 3.07 GF/60, PK - 3.31 GF/60

We can quote stats all day, and it's been done time and time again by various sources showing PK has better stats for the most part, but the fact is...

The Habs are not a better team with Shea Weber, the defense is arguably worse and definitely older/less mobile and lacks a PMD.

 

[E82]

Um... no? I'd like to know where you get your Donald Trump style "alternative facts" from. Your numbers are off.

From here:

Shea Weber is at 2.25GA/60 this year in all scenarios. PK is at 2.91 with a leaky sieve in nets. Last year Weber was at 2.97GA/60 with Nashville. Last year, PK with scrubs in the net was at 2.81GA/60.

The Price Vezina year in which you say Subban only was at 2.3GA/60 he:

1. Played the most of any player on the Habs. Period. 2,148 mins and 40 seconds. Averaged 26.12 mins a game.
2. Had 2.29 GA/60, which led team for all d man, and tied with Tom Gilbert who played 10 games and 800 mins less.
3. Over the same period, had a 3.38 GF/60, which also led the team for all D man.

You have to go back to 2011 to get Weber similar numbers for GF (where he had 3.59), and that was the only year in his career that was close. Finally, since 2010 with Weber playing 443 games and PK playing 432...

Weber - 2.53 GA/60, PK - 2.41 GA/60
Weber - 3.07 GF/60, PK - 3.31 GF/60

We can quote stats all day, and it's been done time and time again by various sources showing PK has better stats for the most part, but the fact is...

The Habs are not a better team with Shea Weber, the defense is arguably worse and definitely older/less mobile and lacks a PMD.

We should just sticky this. I am expecting replies aimed at "millenials, hollywood, leadership, intangibles staredowns, Team Canada, Paid Analysts etc.."

 

[BadHabit]

We should just sticky this. I am expecting replies aimed at "millenials, hollywood, leadership, intangibles staredowns, Team Canada, Paid Analysts etc.."

Don't forget "Pixie Dust".