GDT: Sharks vs Giants: Sunday Night Football

[Alwalys]

FWIW, that's how I read your posts, too. You are more concerned about that (in general) than many ppl here so it was something you focused on. It's less of a concern for me (in general), although it's on my list, just further down than it is for you. You see this as history repeating itself, I see it as perhaps random noise. I think it's natural that ppl are going to be concerned about different aspects of the team (and happy about different aspects) and focus on those things. I like it bc it brings a variety of perspectives to the board.

ETA: Overall, I don't think ppl are really disagreeing so much as wording things somewhat differently and focusing on different elements of an overall picture. It seems like ppl mostly agree about the overall picture but are honing in on the details and arguing about those.

Well speaking for myself I'm just not surprised to see the team looking like the team from previous seasons. It is the same core, and right now the roster is not much better, if at all, than last season's, so the team isn't going to look good against top quality competition. With Couture and Martin in the lineup it's literally a different team. In addition, it is only 6 games into the new regime. So again, not surprising to see the team looks like the McLellan teams.

Of course, I am not one that has ever considered the core fatally flawed, I think they have as good a chance as any. We have all key players on even value contracts or better, so IMO their chances come down to how well the rest of the team rounds out. So when one of the biggest additions from the offseason is missing, I take the results with a grain of salt. Martin is absoutely key to our success, if we are to have any.

 

[OrrNumber4]

There is nothing reasonable about extrapolating that from what we saw. This team has a long way to go and there are still a ton of unknowns about how Deboer and the new personnel will do.

Things we DO know are that we saw the team playing a great brand of hockey to start the season, then the roster was decimated and the team did not have time to practice with the new personnel. So the team struggling was not surprising in the least.

[mod]

So when Couture and Martin are out, excuse the team. But when those players (and JT and Marleau) can't score, it is the teams fault for not stepping up?

You cannot say that Couture and Martin are the difference between success and disaster while downplaying that responsibilities other players must bear.

 

[Alwalys]

So when Couture and Martin are out, excuse the team. But when those players (and JT and Marleau) can't score, it is the teams fault for not stepping up?

You cannot say that Couture and Martin are the difference between success and disaster while downplaying that responsibilities other players must bear.

Losing those two is disaster and the team is lucky to get anything done until they can put in plans to deal with it and practice those plans.

 

[hohosaregood]

Losing those two is disaster and the team is lucky to get anything done until they can put in plans to deal with it and practice those plans.

Nah man. Losing those two shouldn't affect how many goals the team put up, only how many goals against considering their roles on the team are largely defensive.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

So when Couture and Martin are out, excuse the team. But when those players (and JT and Marleau) can't score, it is the teams fault for not stepping up?

You cannot say that Couture and Martin are the difference between success and disaster while downplaying that responsibilities other players must bear.

You actually can because those are two separate issues.

 

[hockeyball]

So when Couture and Martin are out, excuse the team. But when those players (and JT and Marleau) can't score, it is the teams fault for not stepping up?

You cannot say that Couture and Martin are the difference between success and disaster while downplaying that responsibilities other players must bear.

Martin has played an entire 3 games in teal? I mean, he's looked good, but I'm just not buying yet that this collapse is 'acceptable' any way you look at it. Like I said before, if the team is going to completely collapse because our 2nd line center and our #3 defensemen are out then it's not a very good team in the first place.

Hell, the Pen's don't fall apart like this when Crosby is out, Tampa Bay stayed competitive when Stamkos was out. Those are far, far, better players than anyone on our roster, and those teams continue to chug along. They lost a few more games sure, but they stayed competitive. We look like a bad AHL team.

 

[Suddenly Zyuzin]

After 3 games, when people were already planning trade deadline moves for the inevitable Cup run, it was an overreaction.
After the next 3 games, acting like the team is basically a lottery team now is also an overreaction.

I realize some of you literally think about hockey 24/7 and every little thing is massively important, but you guys need to understand the concept of small sample size. Wait till 20-25 games are played, then you can get a better idea of what the team is.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Martin has played an entire 3 games in teal? I mean, he's looked good, but I'm just not buying yet that this collapse is 'acceptable' any way you look at it. Like I said before, if the team is going to completely collapse because our 2nd line center and our #3 defensemen are out then it's not a very good team in the first place.

Hell, the Pen's don't fall apart like this when Crosby is out, Tampa Bay stayed competitive when Stamkos was out. Those are far, far, better players than anyone on our roster, and those teams continue to chug along. They lost a few more games sure, but they stayed competitive. We look like a bad AHL team.

To me, this collapse is simply two bad games. Secondly, did we honestly think that this was a very good team in the first place? Yeah, I think it's reasonable to say it's a playoff caliber team but it's not, even when healthy, going to be a favorite or have expectations of playoff success.

Those teams that you point to without their superstars also were given a larger sample size to work with than two games at the tail end of a road trip doing three in four nights.

 

[stator]

To me, this collapse is simply two bad games.

My view as well, plus the fact that the Sharks had significant changes in the lines due to injuries, and one of those loses were on the back end of the a back to back.

If you look at it, it was close to a very successful road trip if the Sharks would have won the NYR game. This would have made it a 3-1 road trip with the sole loss behind that 2nd day game. So, we are just talking about losing only one game to the NYR on this trip. Not that bad, but not that good either.

It's time for the Sharks to get back on course with the Kings.

Sharks are a playoff team without a significant amount of injuries, or a sole injury to Martin Jones. It just goes to show us how important a goalie is to a team.

 

[hockeyball]

To me, this collapse is simply two bad games. Secondly, did we honestly think that this was a very good team in the first place? Yeah, I think it's reasonable to say it's a playoff caliber team but it's not, even when healthy, going to be a favorite or have expectations of playoff success.

Those teams that you point to without their superstars also were given a larger sample size to work with than two games at the tail end of a road trip doing three in four nights.

My point in this case was to go to the other extreme to stop the "it's because Couture and Martin are out" thinking. They are good players, but they are not the sole cause of this. You don't go from that good to that ****** that quickly without some kind of fragility in play, but either way neither the first 3, or the last 3 games is likely indicative of this teams season play. I still think they make the playoffs barring some serious injury, but the only way we are getting any farther than that is with a mentally strong team that buckles down and out-works the other team when they are getting out-skilled. That is not what i've seen the last 3 games. It's not what i've seen the last 4-5 years. There is still plenty of time to fix it, but they have also already had years to fix it and have not done so. it's a concern, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Dicdonya]

My point in this case was to go to the other extreme to stop the "it's because Couture and Martin are out" thinking. They are good players, but they are not the sole cause of this. You don't go from that good to that ****** that quickly without some kind of fragility in play, but either way neither the first 3, or the last 3 games is likely indicative of this teams season play. I still think they make the playoffs barring some serious injury, but the only way we are getting any farther than that is with a mentally strong team that buckles down and out-works the other team when they are getting out-skilled. That is not what i've seen the last 3 games. It's not what i've seen the last 4-5 years. There is still plenty of time to fix it, but they have also already had years to fix it and have not done so. it's a concern, that's all I'm saying.

It's not just cooch and Martin missing though. It's those two and: donskoi, karlsson, smith, Torres. So we lost not only two key pieces to our starting lineup, but all our depth players as well.

So you may be right that just losing cooch and Martin shouldn't be enough to make the team ******, but when you also lose all the best depth players we have, that would be needed to compensate for losing cooch, the team took a nose dive.

Any chemistry this team had coming out of training camp, almost instantly got **** all over, and it's no surprise at all the team looks disjointed.

 

[hohosaregood]

My point in this case was to go to the other extreme to stop the "it's because Couture and Martin are out" thinking. They are good players, but they are not the sole cause of this. You don't go from that good to that ****** that quickly without some kind of fragility in play, but either way neither the first 3, or the last 3 games is likely indicative of this teams season play. I still think they make the playoffs barring some serious injury, but the only way we are getting any farther than that is with a mentally strong team that buckles down and out-works the other team when they are getting out-skilled. That is not what i've seen the last 3 games. It's not what i've seen the last 4-5 years. There is still plenty of time to fix it, but they have also already had years to fix it and have not done so. it's a concern, that's all I'm saying.

I don't think anybody's said it's all because of Couture and Martin. Like the last goal of the last game where Versteeg managed a goal through Vlasic's stick check, Braun's positioning, and Jones' 5 hole. They gotta tighten up.

 

[Alwalys]

Nah man. Losing those two shouldn't affect how many goals the team put up, only how many goals against considering their roles on the team are largely defensive.

not sure if srs ... couture is a top scorer on the team and martin lets burns be uber effective. even if you grant martin, couture is toewes light

 

[Pinkfloyd]

My point in this case was to go to the other extreme to stop the "it's because Couture and Martin are out" thinking. They are good players, but they are not the sole cause of this. You don't go from that good to that ****** that quickly without some kind of fragility in play, but either way neither the first 3, or the last 3 games is likely indicative of this teams season play. I still think they make the playoffs barring some serious injury, but the only way we are getting any farther than that is with a mentally strong team that buckles down and out-works the other team when they are getting out-skilled. That is not what i've seen the last 3 games. It's not what i've seen the last 4-5 years. There is still plenty of time to fix it, but they have also already had years to fix it and have not done so. it's a concern, that's all I'm saying.

I get that but I think in this particular case, it's a lot more factors at this point. The road trip, the injuries, the fact that they were getting sloppy before Martin and Couture got hurt. They weren't exactly crisp in New Jersey so I think there's a bit of a slump that was coming into effect as well as the injuries. That stuff happens whether you're a mentally tough team or not. That's just part of the ups and downs of the season. The difference between the good teams and the bad ones is how long they let that linger. In this team's case, it could be longer than one might hope just due to how many young players are on this team and playing at this point and how high their skill level is at this point. Not to mention the still new nuances of a different system.

But I do understand your concern. I just don't think these past two games are really indicative of that as much as it is the other factors involved. As for injuries, they've lost Donskoi and Karlsson to go with Couture and Martin. So some guys are simply over their head where they're at. Nieto doesn't belong on the 1st line. He may drive possession and be good enough defensively at that level to pass but he's not going to produce and that line (especially that spot Nieto plays) needs to produce or the focus will be on Pavs and that will get shut down easily. The 3rd line with Goodrow on it isn't going to get the job done and our 4th line is not going to contribute anything worthwhile. Dillon and Burns just don't work together and we have two glorified AHL'ers on the 3rd pairing. The depth is being tested beyond its capabilities and Couture, Martin, Donskoi, Karlsson, and Torres are all contributing factors to that.

 

[CrypTic]

I get that but I think in this particular case, it's a lot more factors at this point. The road trip, the injuries, the fact that they were getting sloppy before Martin and Couture got hurt. They weren't exactly crisp in New Jersey so I think there's a bit of a slump that was coming into effect as well as the injuries. That stuff happens whether you're a mentally tough team or not. That's just part of the ups and downs of the season. The difference between the good teams and the bad ones is how long they let that linger. In this team's case, it could be longer than one might hope just due to how many young players are on this team and playing at this point and how high their skill level is at this point. Not to mention the still new nuances of a different system.

But I do understand your concern. I just don't think these past two games are really indicative of that as much as it is the other factors involved. As for injuries, they've lost Donskoi and Karlsson to go with Couture and Martin. So some guys are simply over their head where they're at. Nieto doesn't belong on the 1st line. He may drive possession and be good enough defensively at that level to pass but he's not going to produce and that line (especially that spot Nieto plays) needs to produce or the focus will be on Pavs and that will get shut down easily. The 3rd line with Goodrow on it isn't going to get the job done and our 4th line is not going to contribute anything worthwhile. Dillon and Burns just don't work together and we have two glorified AHL'ers on the 3rd pairing. The depth is being tested beyond its capabilities and Couture, Martin, Donskoi, Karlsson, and Torres are all contributing factors to that.

I agree with this, especially the bolded and the last paragraph. We have so many injuries plus quite a few new or newish players that I don't expect them to play like a top team. I do want to see them play together better and make progress. I don't expect it to be instantaneous but, with more practice time, I'd like to see them take steps to learn the new systems and play competitively. It's going to be tough until we get some players back. Martin and Couture are key but, like you said, we don't even have the players we'd normally use to fill holes in the top-9 now. Let's just hope that most of the players recover soon, that the team learns from the experience, and that Couture is back ASAP.