Sharks remove "C" from Thornton

[Negatively Positive]

I think some people were complaining that the organization is too tight-lipped and there's no gossip or drama. Is this enough drama for you guys? Good lord, we're turning into the Canucks.

 

[JeremyTB]

Since it's all Joe's fault for the team losing I guess if the Sharks do manage to win the cup this season he can take all the credit? Or is it only a TEAM game when the team wins?

 

[Bizz]

Love Marleau's comments, but it doesn't confirm McLellan was clear with him either.

Honestly, if I'm JT and Todd tells me "we're gonna start with a clean slate this year", I would be thinking "Sure, I can forgive you for blaming me and trying to trade me. I'm on board with the clean slate thing." For a coach to have this kind of problem communicating is a serious issue. How can he lead a team and implement a strategy if he can't be clear on something as simple and binary as stripping the Captaincy?

I get the feeling that none of this was McLellan's idea and he doesn't exactly agree with these changes that Doug Wilson has come up with either.

 

[Sleepy]

I'm not saying Joe was ever out of line or anything, but you mean to tell me you've never been in a situation where someones "humor" was disruptive? I can count several personal experiences of this happening in my life, and I'm a pretty crude and blunt person. There's the right way and the wrong way - maybe, just MAYBE Joe's is the wrong way.

But obviously I have no idea.

What I'm saying is that foible is very very small. If the rumor was he was undercutting the coach, or ripping an 18yo so hard they went home in tears, that would be a different story.

Let me put it another way - Do you think the Hawks complain about Kane's humor or Toews's seriousness? Think a player in Boston or LA would complain that some of their teammates make a couple jokes and blame THAT on their playoff exit? Hell, even St Louis or Pittsburgh don't do that and they've had some playoff struggles lately too. I find that ridiculous that was the "issue" players identified. But I guess when you're interviewing with your GM you don't say "WHERE THE F was our Left D-man?"

I'm finally convinced of the opinion that this team is mentally soft and people have been babied a bit too much. That includes management. Management's mental softness is the only explanation for this cluster of an offseason after a playoff loss, and now it makes sense that mentally soft management and coaching puts together a mentally soft team that complains about "teammates vs coworkers" and "joe made a joke".

I'm not saying Joe's the greatest captain, but for it to be removed in this way for these reasons reflects more poorly on everyone else involved than it does Joe.

 

[Sleepy]

I get the feeling that none of this was McLellan's idea and he doesn't exactly agree with these changes that Doug Wilson has come up with either.

Interesting and totally possible. Man, that would suck to be TM. Still, he should've been clear with JT. That one's on him even if it wasn't his idea.

 

[SactoShark]

I get the feeling that none of this was McLellan's idea and he doesn't exactly agree with these changes that Doug Wilson has come up with either.

Strange, I never thought of it that way. But yeah, what coach would want their boss to purposely surround them with less talent?

Todd always said that he wanted the players to lead themselves though. Sounds like that theory didn't work out the way he wanted it to.

 

[67 others]

What I'm saying is that foible is very very small. If the rumor was he was undercutting the coach, or ripping an 18yo so hard they went home in tears, that would be a different story.

Let me put it another way - Do you think the Hawks complain about Kane's humor or Toews's seriousness? Think a player in Boston or LA would complain that some of their teammates make a couple jokes and blame THAT on their playoff exit? Hell, even St Louis or Pittsburgh don't do that and they've had some playoff struggles lately too. I find that ridiculous that was the "issue" players identified. But I guess when you're interviewing with your GM you don't say "WHERE THE F was our Left D-man?"

I'm finally convinced of the opinion that this team is mentally soft and people have been babied a bit too much. That includes management. Management's mental softness is the only explanation for this cluster of an offseason after a playoff loss, and now it makes sense that mentally soft management and coaching puts together a mentally soft team that complains about "teammates vs coworkers" and "joe made a joke".

I'm not saying Joe's the greatest captain, but for it to be removed in this way for these reasons reflects more poorly on everyone else involved than it does Joe.

Exactly.
Management has gone cuckoo for cocoa puffs this offseason. Anything to stir the drama pot in a direction away from Wilson doing nothing to improve the left side defense 2 years in a row.

Oh noes. A team Captain made a sarcastic cutting joke like most hockey players do.

 

[Iron Chef]

I personally am reserving judgement on the whole Thornton controversy because I'm not privy to what went on behind closed doors and don't know the context on LR's comments.

But I'm not happy with how things are being communicated. DW does the whole "those conversations will stay behind close doors" RE: Marleau and Thornton, and then LR does this.

 

[do0glas]

Being in the military I know what LR is talking about regarding the weird sense of humor.

When I first joined and there was the crusty master sergeant and he had a crass sense of humor all the time I just never felt comfortable going to them for anything. I wasn't inspired to do more by them and they were essentially a task master. The gap was just too far age an experience wise.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Frankly, I think Joe's purported rough sense of humor is a red herring.

I simply think the org wants Joe moved aside. If he does so graciously, great but there's a real risk he doesn't move over graciously. I'm sure they recognize this is a risk.

Regarding their softness, losing a series up 2-0 to an inferior Oilers team was the first inkling that they were soft. They've been proving their softness for 9 years now. (Maybe not that Hawks loss but the other playoffs certainly exposed their softness.)

I'm actually glad in a way they are letting Joe hang out to dry a bit. I think there was sadly an icon on a pedestal culture going on and clearly they are trying to move away from that.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Being in the military I know what LR is talking about regarding the weird sense of humor.

When I first joined and there was the crusty master sergeant and he had a crass sense of humor all the time I just never felt comfortable going to them for anything. I wasn't inspired to do more by them and they were essentially a task master. The gap was just too far age an experience wise.

Finally someone gets it. It has nothing to do with "softness".

 

[magic school bus]

The Bus
Thornton

 

[Helistin]

Being in the military I know what LR is talking about regarding the weird sense of humor.

When I first joined and there was the crusty master sergeant and he had a crass sense of humor all the time I just never felt comfortable going to them for anything. I wasn't inspired to do more by them and they were essentially a task master. The gap was just too far age an experience wise.

That's strange. I spent a year in the military(I'm Finnish so it's mandatory to serve atleast 6 months) and most people including myself never needed a task master with a specific sense of humour to give our best effort.
You either are that kind of person that gives his best effort or you are not. Pointing to any specific things like ones sense of humour are just excuses that lazy people use.

 

[SJeasy]

Frankly, I think Joe's purported rough sense of humor is a red herring.

I simply think the org wants Joe moved aside. If he does so graciously, great but there's a real risk he doesn't move over graciously. I'm sure they recognize this is a risk.

Regarding their softness, losing a series up 2-0 to an inferior Oilers team was the first inkling that they were soft. They've been proving their softness for 9 years now. (Maybe not that Hawks loss but the other playoffs certainly exposed their softness.)

I'm actually glad in a way they are letting Joe hang out to dry a bit. I think there was sadly an icon on a pedestal culture going on and clearly they are trying to move away from that.

I agree although I suspect it is true to an extent. Frequently, sarcasm is used to dominate a dialogue and it can prevent a collective truth from emerging. That would be more problematic than the feelings themselves around the sarcasm. The symptoms in such a scenario would be seeming intransigence when faced with the need for change or just bad solutions to needed change.

For all,
I think it is interesting regarding the numbers here jumping to JT's defense when it was almost a collective sigh of relief when Marleau lost his C. I think it is more indicative of the management not understanding the characteristics that contribute to a good captaincy and leadership. I suggest that all here look at the commonalities between those captains that are successful.

 

[hohosaregood]

Being in the military I know what LR is talking about regarding the weird sense of humor.

When I first joined and there was the crusty master sergeant and he had a crass sense of humor all the time I just never felt comfortable going to them for anything. I wasn't inspired to do more by them and they were essentially a task master. The gap was just too far age an experience wise.

Was he like the guy in Full Metal Jacket?

 

[Gilligans Island]

For all,
I think it is interesting regarding the numbers here jumping to JT's defense when it was almost a collective sigh of relief when Marleau lost his C. I think it is more indicative of the management not understanding the characteristics that contribute to a good captaincy and leadership. I suggest that all here look at the commonalities between those captains that are successful.

I'm a bit surprised as well at the Jumbo worship. I think Patty's response to losing the A is exactly what the org wants in a veteran. I'm hoping earns an A.

As far as model captains of recent Cup winners, who would folks list. I'll start:

Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Toews
Brind'Amour?
Andreychuk?

I purposely omitted Brown (don't like his hitting antics and diving) and Crosby (too much whining for my taste).

 

[Sleepy]

For all,
I think it is interesting regarding the numbers here jumping to JT's defense when it was almost a collective sigh of relief when Marleau lost his C. I think it is more indicative of the management not understanding the characteristics that contribute to a good captaincy and leadership. I suggest that all here look at the commonalities between those captains that are successful.

Agree. It'd be kinda like if the only change we made was switching out Niemi. Been there done that with Nabby, didn't fix anything. As far as captaining, been there done that with Marleau/Blake, didn't fix anything.

 

[Sleepy]

I'm a bit surprised as well at the Jumbo worship. I think Patty's response to losing the A is exactly what the org wants in a veteran. I'm hoping earns an A.

As far as model captains of recent Cup winners, who would folks list. I'll start:

Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Toews
Brind'Amour?
Andreychuk?

I purposely omitted Brown (don't like his hitting antics and diving) and Crosby (too much whining for my taste).

Sakic and Yzerman are very Marleau-esque, so I'll be shocked if people list them as great Captains but Marleau was a bad one. I'm still of the opinion the C only matters in hindsight, or if you make it dramarama like the Sharks have.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Sakic and Yzerman are very Marleau-esque, so I'll be shocked if people list them as great Captains but Marleau was a bad one. I'm still of the opinion the C only matters in hindsight, or if you make it dramarama like the Sharks have.

I purposely left them off - that's why I mentioned recent. Those teams (pre-Cap era) were simply stacked, which is impossible aside from the Hawks first cup win when TKK were on their ELCs.

But yes, those 2 and Marleau are similar. I do like Patty - and he gets kudos for his response this offseason.

 

[SJeasy]

I'm a bit surprised as well at the Jumbo worship. I think Patty's response to losing the A is exactly what the org wants in a veteran. I'm hoping earns an A.

As far as model captains of recent Cup winners, who would folks list. I'll start:

Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Toews
Brind'Amour?
Andreychuk?

I purposely omitted Brown (don't like his hitting antics and diving) and Crosby (too much whining for my taste).

Lidstrom and Niedermayer are similar to Marleau. So was Sakic and I do credit Sakic despite the team being stacked. They had an awful coach and the players effectively ran the team. In that situation the captain should get kudos.

Brind'Amour and Toews have similarities to each other.

 

[do0glas]

That's strange. I spent a year in the military(I'm Finnish so it's mandatory to serve atleast 6 months) and most people including myself never needed a task master with a specific sense of humour to give our best effort.
You either are that kind of person that gives his best effort or you are not. Pointing to any specific things like ones sense of humour are just excuses that lazy people use.

You misunderstand. There are a lot of things in the military here that can be hard to understand and have nothing to do with the primary job. You need the vets to help explain these different benefits programs and sometimes how to read your paycheck. When these vets are always crass always blunt and derogatory at times it's hard to feel comfortable asking their advice because honestly it'll end up confrontational in some way. The younger staff sergeants that had the experience but could also bridge the generational gap were way more valuable.

As for the primary job you never had anyone higher than you telling you what to do? Our school only gives us a basic understand of the job we signed up for and it was still six months. So we needed direction and patience as well so when the crusty old guy is like "get this done!" And dips it's hard to want to do a better job.

 

[WTFetus]

That's strange. I spent a year in the military(I'm Finnish so it's mandatory to serve atleast 6 months) and most people including myself never needed a task master with a specific sense of humour to give our best effort.
You either are that kind of person that gives his best effort or you are not. Pointing to any specific things like ones sense of humour are just excuses that lazy people use.

Pretty much this.

McLellan talked all season about how the C means nothing, and now they contradict themselves by making a big deal of this and with Robinson's comment. This off-season has been nothing but back-tracking by the management.

 

[slocal]

I have no real problem with them removing Joe's C, but the way they're going about it is what's troubling to me. It's got a high amount of circus that none of us are used to. I'd prefer silence over this amount of backtracking and double-speak. Then again, I'm not really vocal about my take on the team as much as others are.

 

[slocal]

Hah, what Fetus said

 

[Alwalys]

What I'm saying is that foible is very very small. If the rumor was he was undercutting the coach, or ripping an 18yo so hard they went home in tears, that would be a different story.

Let me put it another way - Do you think the Hawks complain about Kane's humor or Toews's seriousness? Think a player in Boston or LA would complain that some of their teammates make a couple jokes and blame THAT on their playoff exit? Hell, even St Louis or Pittsburgh don't do that and they've had some playoff struggles lately too. I find that ridiculous that was the "issue" players identified. But I guess when you're interviewing with your GM you don't say "WHERE THE F was our Left D-man?"

I'm finally convinced of the opinion that this team is mentally soft and people have been babied a bit too much. That includes management. Management's mental softness is the only explanation for this cluster of an offseason after a playoff loss, and now it makes sense that mentally soft management and coaching puts together a mentally soft team that complains about "teammates vs coworkers" and "joe made a joke".

I'm not saying Joe's the greatest captain, but for it to be removed in this way for these reasons reflects more poorly on everyone else involved than it does Joe.

Coming around to this. But I still think it's mostly a numbers game as far as our results. Losing a Canada olympic team quality D-man is very bad when you are facing the eventual Cup champ, no matter what the situation.

I agree although I suspect it is true to an extent. Frequently, sarcasm is used to dominate a dialogue and it can prevent a collective truth from emerging. That would be more problematic than the feelings themselves around the sarcasm. The symptoms in such a scenario would be seeming intransigence when faced with the need for change or just bad solutions to needed change.

For all,
I think it is interesting regarding the numbers here jumping to JT's defense when it was almost a collective sigh of relief when Marleau lost his C. I think it is more indicative of the management not understanding the characteristics that contribute to a good captaincy and leadership. I suggest that all here look at the commonalities between those captains that are successful.

The most successful captains of the modern NHL are Toews and Brown. What do you think that commonalities between them are?

The top of the list for me is they are surrounded by the two best teams in the league.