Post-Game Talk: Sharks 2, Pens 1 (SO) - The Kunitz Spoils Sid Going Old School Edition

[steveg]

Visually Kunitz looks more engaged than he has previously. But again, the bottom line is he isn't finishing. I don't care about how a particular player looks TBH, it's if he is producing at a reasonable level relative to his talent and ability. That's my argument here. and contrary to your belief it is very sound. Kunitz isn't producing, but neither is anyone else to any large degree (of late) except Geno and Horny. You don't get style points here. EVERYONE who hasn't produced should be held accountable. It's not just what Kunitz does or doesn't do.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Many folks here are complaining about what Kunitz is adding (or not adding, more correctly) to the team ASIDE from his hands/around the net. While I feel even his hands have deteriorated, he is still likely going to produce points relatively regularly -- simply given that he is on the ice at ES and on the PP virtually 100% of the time with either of two of the best centers in the world.

WITH THAT SAID, if he is picking up a point or two every few games, but is doing other things that either COST the team goals against, OR -- frequently cost his team OPPORTUNITIES to score goals (giveaways, flubbed passes, losing board battles and thus O-zone time, etc.), then I don't know how you can simply refer to such things as being nothing but "style points." Point totals are obviously easy to refer to as a "measuring stick;" glaring giveaways that LEAD DIRECTLY to goals (such as Letang's last game) are ALSO easy to point to. However, the more subtle things -- which over the course of time cost your team goals/wins -- are obviously MUCH more difficult to assess, (since there's no sure way to know exactly what would have happened had you NOT lost that board battle, or had you been more aggressive on that forecheck or backcheck, or had you flubbed fewer of the passes sent your way). So, to me, since these things are much harder to measure, you have to rely on the "eye test." You may call it "style points," I call it assessing a player's effectiveness in areas that are harder to directly measure. And in many, many games over the past few months, Kunitz has failed in this area, in my eyes. And I still contend that it would be a fallacious argument to say, in counter to my point, "well, why are you singling him out -- other guys failed to score, also..."

 

[Michael8771*]

Unlike everyone else, save for maybe Sutter, he looks like vomit on the ice this year in almost every single game. He's no longer a top-6 player and should be treated as such.

I disagree, at least for the time being. He had a nagging injury for quite some time. And visually he looked tenative and gave uneven efforts. Of late however he looks like he's putting forth more effort, but he's not attaining results. If this continues throughout the playoffs I'll worry. Until then I'm not overly concerned. But let me be clear, he does need to convert more regularly, there's no doubt in that. But many players fall into that category as well.

 

[steveg]

I disagree, at least for the time being. He had a nagging injury for quite some time. And visually he looked tenative and gave uneven efforts. Of late however he looks like he's putting forth more effort, but he's not attaining results. If this continues throughout the playoffs I'll worry. Until then I'm not overly concerned. But let me be clear, he does need to convert more regularly, there's no doubt in that. But many players fall into that category as well.

I concede that I thought he showed a little more effort, or hustle, for a few games when moved to Geno's LW. However, it looks to me like he's regressed right back to where he was, over the last couple...

 

[Xavier Laflamme*]

Kunitz is still going to the high traffic areas and putting himself into position to score. He's been missing a ton of chances. I saw him make a lot of good defensive plays over the last few games, but throughout this entire season, he's flubbed passes and turned the puck over more than I can ever remember.

He's obviously being miss used on the power play and has no business being on the top unit, I have hope that he'll start scoring on those opportunities. I feel his effort, namely his skating has been much better lately.

He has been a very frustrating player to watch this year, though.

 

[Michael8771*]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Many folks here are complaining about what Kunitz is adding (or not adding, more correctly) to the team ASIDE from his hands/around the net. While I feel even his hands have deteriorated, he is still likely going to produce points relatively regularly -- simply given that he is on the ice at ES and on the PP virtually 100% of the time with either of two of the best centers in the world.

WITH THAT SAID, if he is picking up a point or two every few games, but is doing other things that either COST the team goals against, OR -- frequently cost his team OPPORTUNITIES to score goals (giveaways, flubbed passes, losing board battles and thus O-zone time, etc.), then I don't know how you can simply refer to such things as being nothing but "style points." Point totals are obviously easy to refer to as a "measuring stick;" glaring giveaways that LEAD DIRECTLY to goals (such as Letang's last game) are ALSO easy to point to. However, the more subtle things -- which over the course of time cost your team goals/wins -- are obviously MUCH more difficult to assess, (since there's no sure way to know exactly what would have happened had you NOT lost that board battle, or had you been more aggressive on that forecheck or backcheck, or had you flubbed fewer of the passes sent your way). So, to me, since these things are much harder to measure, you have to rely on the "eye test." You may call it "style points," I call it assessing a player's effectiveness in areas that are harder to directly measure. And in many, many games over the past few months, Kunitz has failed in this area, in my eyes. And I still contend that it would be a fallacious argument to say, in counter to my point, "well, why are you singling him out -- other guys failed to score, also..."

The Letang giveaway IMO isn't applicable here. I don't remember any Kunitz giveaway that DIRECTLY resulted in a goal against. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't think of any off hand. Now, as far as Kunitz ''flubbing'' or squandering golden scoring chances, I agree there. But I also remember a few plays where he kept the puck alive in contributing to a goal by Malkin (recently). Make no mistake, he's not playing at an acceptable level. I just don't believe this argument lives or dies with him alone.

I know Bennett is not getting meaningful ice time, but that said he's got THREE goals in 32 games. I don't expect huge production, but he also needs to be better, as does Spaling, Perron, and Crosby.

 

[roquay]

The Letang giveaway IMO isn't applicable here. I don't remember any Kunitz giveaway that DIRECTLY resulted in a goal against. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't think of any off hand. Now, as far as Kunitz ''flubbing'' or squandering golden scoring chances, I agree there. But I also remember a few plays where he kept the puck alive in contributing to a goal by Malkin (recently). Make no mistake, he's not playing at an acceptable level. I just don't believe this argument lives or dies with him alone.

I know Bennett is not getting meaningful ice time, but that said he's got THREE goals in 32 games. I don't expect huge production, but he also needs to be better, as does Spaling, Perron, and Crosby.

For me it's Kunitz and him able to take a pass. Its like he has Dupuis hands now which was never the case. Players like Kunitz get on streaks but if he is killing plays for his teammates that's just bad news.

At least put him on the third line. I'd much rather Sutter having to go back and defend on Kunitz's turnovers than Sid/Geno.

Bennett needs more time and should be on Geno's line. He got 10 games there and looked great in most of them. Interestingly enough he has at even strength more goals per 60 than Claude Giroux.

 

[Michael8771*]

For me it's Kunitz and him able to take a pass. Its like he has Dupuis hands now which was never the case. Players like Kunitz get on streaks but if he is killing plays for his teammates that's just bad news.

At least put him on the third line. I'd much rather Sutter having to go back and defend on Kunitz's turnovers than Sid/Geno.

Bennett needs more time and should be on Geno's line. He got 10 games there and looked great in most of them. Interestingly enough he has at even strength more goals per 60 than Claude Giroux.

I don't think BB's play has garnered him any time with Geno TBH. He'll be a tour de force in a game like Chicago, then largely disappear in the next three or four games. He may have a couple noticeable shifts now and then that translate into next to nothing but possession time. He has as much to prove as anyone. Granted he should be afforded more opportunities (more minutes), but he hasn't exactly made the most of his chances either.

 

[roquay]

I don't think BB's play has garnered him any time with Geno TBH. He'll be a tour de force in a game like Chicago, then largely disappear in the next three or four games. He may have a couple noticeable shifts now and then that translate into next to nothing but possession time. He has as much to prove as anyone. Granted he should be afforded more opportunities (more minutes), but he hasn't exactly made the most of his chances either.

Playing with a Sutter will do that to pretty much everyone. He's played better now Winnik is here but before that he was with Spaling/Sutter 2 pretty defensive guys.

He looked his best with Geno so I think he should get an extended look. He couldn't worse than Kunitz right now. In the playoffs if we want to give Geno more space Bennett (or maybe even Winnik) needs to be on that second line. Kunitz isn't making plays and Comeau can certainly bring the puck into offensive zone (and can score a goal) but he's pretty limited in his playmaking abilities.

 

[Michael8771*]

Playing with a Sutter will do that to pretty much everyone. He's played better now Winnik is here but before that he was with Spaling/Sutter 2 pretty defensive guys.

He looked his best with Geno so I think he should get an extended look. He couldn't worse than Kunitz right now. In the playoffs if we want to give Geno more space Bennett (or maybe even Winnik) needs to be on that second line. Kunitz isn't making plays and Comeau can certainly bring the puck into offensive zone (and can score a goal) but he's pretty limited in his playmaking abilities.

I think BB's ability to be a playmaker is one good reason why he needs to be a bottom six guy. As he's our only player who has that quality in his game other than Sid or Geno. Having two playmakers on one line seems redundant, particularly when this team is so limited with those types of players. Geno is more than capable of being THAT type of catalyst on his line without BB's help.

Honestly, I just don't see BB as consistent enough to be a regular in the top six. Not to this point. He'll show flashes of brilliance but can't maintain that level of play.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Perron hasn't looked very good in a while either.

 

[Tender Rip]

I think BB's ability to be a playmaker is one good reason why he needs to be a bottom six guy. As he's our only player who has that quality in his game other than Sid or Geno. Having two playmakers on one line seems redundant, particularly when this team is so limited with those types of players. Geno is more than capable of being THAT type of catalyst on his line without BB's help.

Underlined is simply nonsense .

PS: .... and Perron is most definitely a playmaker also. For the record.
PPS: .... and not every line needs a "playmaker" of the creative/passing sort. Certainly not on the bottom 6. Instead they need to make/create plays in different ways (cycling/crashing the net/forcing turnovers).

 

[steveg]

The Letang giveaway IMO isn't applicable here. I don't remember any Kunitz giveaway that DIRECTLY resulted in a goal against. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't think of any off hand. Now, as far as Kunitz ''flubbing'' or squandering golden scoring chances, I agree there. But I also remember a few plays where he kept the puck alive in contributing to a goal by Malkin (recently). Make no mistake, he's not playing at an acceptable level. I just don't believe this argument lives or dies with him alone.

I know Bennett is not getting meaningful ice time, but that said he's got THREE goals in 32 games. I don't expect huge production, but he also needs to be better, as does Spaling, Perron, and Crosby.

I agree on the Letang giveaway -- I think you missed my point. My point is, if someone is scoring, it's easy for a casual fan to say "they are producing, so they must be playing well" -- which is not necessarily true, as you well know; likewise, if someone makes a blatant giveaway that results in a goal (like Letang's), it's easy to say "that guy is playing horribly" -- which is also not necessarily true. My point wasn't that Kunitz is making BLATANT mistakes, like the Letang giveaway, all that often (I agree with you on that); I was using Letang's giveaway as more of a "contrast;" i.e. I brought it up only to illustrate that "things like that are obvious to even the casual fan," but the mistakes Kunitz is making AREN'T as blatant or as attention-grabbing as that, in most cases; it's more of an "overall level of play" thing. He doesn't seem to be making alot of egregious, glaringly obvious mistakes; he's making what seem to be a large number of mistakes of the more subtle variety -- things that are occurring consistently enough to make it appear frequently like he's giving about a half-interested effort.

Anyway, I don't think we disagree that much; you agree Kunitz is not playing well, and after talking to you more about it, it seems like you are just trying to get people to see that others are slumping, as well. Fair enough. I agree that Bennett, despite insufficient opportunity, is in a points slump (though he seems to be giving effort), and Perron is in a pretty bad scoring slump. Sutter, we all know his play in the o-zone at ES has been poor; even Winnik, a guy I've been generally pleased with, doesn't have a point yet as a Pen, I don't think (though he is contributing in other ways IMO, and is still adjusting to his new team). So, to your point, yes -- there are several guys underperforming in terms of point production. But, FEW, IMO, have looked as bad as Kunitz has most games (except a few in the recent past while playing with Geno), in the parts of the game not as easily measured as goals/assists are...

 

[Penguinzilla*]

Perron hasn't looked very good in a while either.

He's still battling hard which is good. They need to put him on the 1st PP instead of Kunitz because he's better with the puck and is on my fantasy hockey team.