Shane Doan vs. Ryan Smyth

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by IggyFan12, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. IggyFan12

    IggyFan12 Registered User

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    This is in terms of career and peak not if you would trade these players today. Both are known as Captain Canada because of their love representing their country and both are known as gritty two way players who are great leaders. I have broken this down year by year each player was in the league in the 95/96 season for good. Smyth played 3 games the year before but I wont count that year.

    95/96

    Smyth:
    48GP 2G 9A 11P

    Doan:

    74GP 7G 10A 17P

    Both started off with a rough rookie season... I consider this a tie.

    96/97

    Smyth:
    82GP 39G 22A 61P

    Doan:
    63GP 4G 8A 12P

    Smyth wins here by a land slide. Almost 40 goals in his sophmore season was really impressive.

    97/98

    Smyth:
    65GP 20G 13A 33P

    Doan:
    33GP 5G 6A 11P

    Smyth wins again with a 20 goal season compared to Doan.

    98/99

    Smyth:
    71GP 13G 18A 31P

    Doan:
    79GP 6G 16A 22P

    Both put up very small numbers this year but Smyth gets the edge based on twice as many goals and more points in less games.

    99/00

    Smyth:
    82GP 28G 26A 54P

    Doan:
    81gp 26g 25a 51p

    Very close this year. Slight edge to Smyth based on more goals and points.

    00/01

    Smyth:
    82GP 31G 39A 70P

    Doan:
    76GP 26G 37A 63P

    Again we see similar numbers but Smyth is still a hair above Doan in terms of Offensive output.

    01/02

    Smyth:
    61GP 15G 35A 50P

    Doan:
    81GP 20G 29A 49P

    Despite playing in more games and having 1 less point I think Doan has a better seaon than Smyth with a 20 goal season.

    02/03

    Smyth:
    66GP 27G 34A 61P

    Doan:
    82GP 21G 37A 58P

    Just looking at the numbers Smyth wins this year but missing 16 games also has to be considered. Doan brings more than offense and I'd rather have Doan for the whole season then Smyth for only 66 games.

    03/04

    Smyth:

    82GP 23G 36A 59P

    Doan:
    79GP 27G 41A 68P

    Doan wins this year with more goals and points despite playing in 3 less games.

    05/06

    Smyth:
    75GP 36G 30A 66P

    Doan:
    82GP 30G 36A 66P

    In terms of season I give the edge to Smyth. He helped Edmonton reach the playoffs while the Coyotes missed it. Very similar numbers however.

    06/07

    Smyth:
    71GP 36G 32A 68P

    Doan:
    73GP 27G 28A 55P

    Edge to Smyth who was traded to the Islanders at the end of the season and helped them make the playoffs.

    07/08

    Smyth:
    55GP 14G 23A 37P

    Doan:
    80GP 28G 50A 78P

    Doan easily wins this year. Smyth has a rough start to his career in Colorado.

    08/09
    Smyth:
    77GP 26G 33A 59P

    Doan:
    82GP 31G 42A 73P

    Doan wins again as Smyth disapoints for the Avs.

    09/10

    Smyth:
    67GP 22G 31A 53P

    Doan:
    82GP 18G 37A 55P

    Doan wins again as he stays healthy while both players help their team make the playoffs for the first time in a long time.

    10/11
    Smyth:
    75GP 21G 23A 44P

    Doan:
    67GP 18G 38A 56P

    Right now edge to doan who has 12 more points than Smyth.

    Playoffs:

    Smyth career point totals:
    87GP 26G 28A 54P

    Smyth has also reached the Stanley Cup finals once and has won several playoff series in his career.

    Doan:
    35GP 7G 7A 14P

    Has yet to win a single round in the playoffs.

    International:

    Smyth won the gold in 02 for Canada and both have represented their countries on numerous occasions.

    Verdict: 7 seasons for Smyth and 7 for Doan and a tie. The tie break is playoffs where no contest Smyth wins hands down.

    Very similar careers between the 2 however.
     
  2. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Doan easily. His offensive numbers are a bit better at his peak. And he did it with no help - Doan led his team in scoring 6 straight years, while Smyth was triggerman for Doug Weight in his prime.

    And that's just offense - Doan was always excellent defensively.

    Smyth got more attention playing for a Canadian team while Doan toiled in the desert, but Doan was a better player.
     
  3. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Doan has 6 points in 8 playoff games after the age of 23 - hardly a meaningful sample. As the numbers above show, it took him a few year to break out.

    Both men proved to be clutch scorers in international play.
     
  4. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    i always thought brenden morrow was a guy who should be compared to doan. a lot more dimensions to those guys' games than smyth, no disrespect to smyth.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Morrow very well could be a young version of Doan.
     
  6. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Doan gets my vote for sure. More of an individual player who could do it on his own. Both played well in international hockey too. Doan scored perhaps the most underrated goal in Canadian history in the 2004 World Cup - the eventual championship game winner.
     
  7. SniperHF

    SniperHF Administrator In The Coat

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    Morrow is definitely Doan like. Being a Coyotes fan I see a lot of both.

    But I wouldn't really call him a young version of Doan being only 2 years younger :snide:

    I don't think Morrow will ever reach that full potential though now that he's 32 and had injuries take up significant parts of his seasons over the years. He's got everything Doan has except the scoring; which is the only area he falls a little short in.

    Doan is also an underrated playmaker.

    My own initial instinct was Smyth over Doan but you guys brought up some good points about teammates, so I changed my mind.
     
  8. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Wow, didn't realize morrow was that old already. He sure got a late start.
     
  9. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Clearly Smyth. Much better goalscorer, virtually same playmaking, leadership and physical play. Doan has a bit of edge defensively, but Smyth's much better in playoffs.
     
  10. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Did you look at the stats presented? Doan has the better offensive peak with less help.

    Calling their playmaking even is not based on facts.
     
  11. Prophecy35

    Prophecy35 Registered User

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    I was thinking the same thing. Doan has never had the quality of linemates that Smyth had. Not saying that Smyth has been with all-stars every year, but Doan has been screwed over. He is much better than his stats suggest.
     
  12. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Yes? The OP actually spun the stats in way to favor Doan in some seasons, e.g.:

    ^ Smyth's been obviously better that season. Reaching an arbitrary goalscoring mark in 20 more games is irrelevant.

    Again.

    And again.

    Smyth wins 10 out of 15 seasons, while Doan wins 4.

    Peak? Smyth has three seasons over 35 goals. Doan has zero and peaked at 31.

    Help? Both have 10 50+ point seasons, so let's look at their centers in those:

    Doan: 2x Roenick, 2x Reinprecht, Jokinen, 2x Langkow, Comrie, Lombardi, Belanger

    Not a very good group outside of Roenick and somewhat Jokinen/Langkow.

    Smyth: 3x Weight, Comrie, Marchant, York, Horcoff, Stoll, Stastny, Kopitar

    More seasons with top end centers than Doan (4 to 2), but also more with utter crap (also 4 to 2).
     
  13. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Doan has finished 20th, 22nd, and 28th in scoring and led his team in scoring by wide margins in those seasons. Who cares if doan played with roenick when he was a young player? He was clearly the offensive catalyst of his team in his prime.
     
  14. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Doan led his team in scoring 6x. Smyth 4x. Granted, Doan was a one-man show several times and his leads have been huge. Smyth also finished 13th, 16th, 17th in goals.

    Besides, making a case by first stating that Doan's teammates were crap, and then that he led the team over those crappy teammates by a significant margin doesn't make sense.

    Maybe Doan would score more with better linemates. Or maybe he would actually score less, as he wouldn't be the sole offensive focus of a crappy team (the Bure effect). Hard to say.

    Anyway, arguing that Doan was better offensively is baseless - Smyth has scored more goals, points, GPG, PPG, is close to Doan in assists and near identical APG; and is several times better in playoffs to boot.
     
  15. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Smyth has a substantially better goalscoring record than Doan.

    Conversely, Doan has been a much better playmaker than Smyth and has a slightly better offensive peak, although it's very close. Biggest difference is that Doan has been able to stay healthier - if Smyth had been as healthy, their adjusted point totals from their best 5 seasons would be nearly identical.

    Doan is a slightly better defensive player although there isn't much in it.

    Smyth has an Olympic Gold, Doan does not.

    Biggest difference is that Smyth's playoff record is substantially better than Doan's. Both played for crap teams for the bulk of their careers, but Smyth has helped his team to playoff upsets and has more points in the 2006 playoffs than Doan has in his whole career. Doan hasn't won a round.

    When you consider how close their regular season records are, the playoff record + Olympic Gold has to give the advantage to Smyth.

    Doan, however, has been substantially better from 2007 onward. 4 years ago, Smyth would have taken this easily.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Doan had the better peak as a point producer. It's quite clear from the stats posted above.

    I really don't care about career APG that factors in the time before Doan was an elite offensive player. Doan was the better playmaker at his peak and it isn't close.
     
  17. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Yeah let's ignore all Doan's worse years just... because.

    EDIT: Doan has better peak? Really?

    Doan's 5 best PPGs: 0.98, 0.89, 0.86, 0.84, 0.83 (8 seasons above 0.70)
    Smyth's 5 best PPGs: 0.96, 0.92, 0.88, 0.85, 0.82 (9 seasons above 0.70)

    So... no.

    GPG's are outright hilarious:

    Doan: 0.38, 0.37, 0.37, 0.35, 0.34 (7 seasons above 0.30)
    Smyth: 0.51, 0.48, 0.48, 0.41, 0.38 (9 seasons above 0.30)

    Doan's best season is on par with Smyth's 5th best.

    And the vaunted playmaking?

    Doan: 0.63, 0.57, 0.52, 0.51, 0.49 (8 seasons above 0.40)
    Smyth: 0.57, 0.52, 0.48, 0.46, 0.45 (9 seasons above 0.40)

    They have identical peak in points, Smyth is far better in goalscoring, Doan is better in playmaking... and Smyth maintained peak production longer in every area.

    The only thing in Doan's favor is his durability.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  18. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I feel you are just being argumentative now. I don't see how doan's stats as a grinder early in his career are any more relevant than, say, thornton's stats as a rookie 4th liner in a discussion of thornton's playmaking.

    Would doan be a better player if he spent those seasons in the minors like he probably should have? He'd be better on a per game basis if he did.
     
  19. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    I edited the post, see above.

    Doan didn't produce more than Smyth at his peak, and produced less outside it...
     
  20. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    By the way, I had forgotten that Smyth had a lot of his best seasons after Weight left. Pretty poor mistake on my part. So smyth wasn't boosted by linemates.

    Still, comparing their scoring totals, doan quite clearly has a peak edge in points. Smyth such a better goal scorer, however, that that might bring him even with Doan in peak offense. Doan was much better defensively, so I'll stil give it to him.
     
  21. karnige

    karnige Real Life FTL

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    I don't really get it, smyth is clearly better and in the playoffs i'd rather have him
     
  22. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Was about to post something similar.

    In terms of adjusted points ...

    Doan's best 5 years:

    84
    79
    76
    68
    65

    All in at least 79 GP.

    Smyth's best 5 years:

    76
    69 (in 66 GP)
    68
    65 (in 75 GP)
    63

    ... plus had another season with 57 adjusted points in 61 GP which would have pro-rated out at about 75 adjusted points.

    Basically the only difference is that Doan was a bit healthier in their best years.

    If Smyth had stayed healthy in 2002-03 when he was having a career year, and scored 15 points in the 16 games he missed, it's pretty much an absolute dead heat.

    If you rate goalscoring as slightly more important than playmaking (as I think most do), then Smyth would then come out ahead.
     
  23. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Doan was in a situation like selanne with the playoffs where none of his games were in his prime. Bonus to smyth for doing fairly well when he did make it, but Doan really gets an "incomplete" for the playoffs.
     
  24. wpgyotes

    wpgyotes Bye Bryz

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    Doan's a better skater, which gives him a slight edge defensively, and he can take over a game with his physical play. Although Smyth isn't a soft player, he isn't going to change the course of the game by running over guys.

    That said, Smyth has a much better nose for goals and is a wizard around the net. Doan can be streaky, sometimes looking like he could be at Iginla's level, but other times looking like a third liner with missed slap shots way wide and poor playmaking. Smyth gets the edge offensively.

    They're similar players in a lot of respects. Tough to call either way, though it looks like Smyth's decline is happening more rapidly. Over their careers it's a tough call, but I take Doan if I had to make the choice today.

    *Consider the source. This shouldn't be considered an objective opinion based on my affiliation with the Coyotes!
     
  25. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Wpg, is doan only a little better than smyth defensively? I know he has a rep as a great two way guy for the international game and was often on canada's checking line. When smyth was on team Canada, it was basically to score goals on the powerplay.

    I do think both their defensive games are underrated
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011

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