Sportsnet: Shanahan: Leafs’ off-season work still going on

Neil Hamburger

Five Bagger!
Jun 15, 2010
3,553
6
Toronto
Didn't they turn over half the Team? Seems like more moves were made this summer than any in the past.

Lots of moves were made, just no headline grabbing ones that 666 seems to crave.

Out:
Gunnarson
Ranger
Gleason
McClement
Raymond
Bolland
Orr
McLaren
Kulemin
D'amigo

In:
Polak
Robidas
Booth
Santorelli
Winnik
Komarov
Kontiola
Frattin

We've definitely improved our depth, and will have a fourth line that can actually play hockey instead of just fight.

Is it really such a stretch to wait until a single game has been played (realistically, it should be multiple seasons) before we call Shanahan a failure?

Ooops I guess I forgot that this is the internet, and a Leafs fan forum to boot...
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,976
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Leafs Home Board
Lots of moves were made, just no headline grabbing ones that 666 seems to crave.

Out:
Gunnarson
Ranger
Gleason
McClement
Raymond
Bolland
Orr
McLaren
Kulemin
D'amigo

In:
Polak
Robidas
Booth
Santorelli
Winnik
Komarov
Kontiola
Frattin

We've definitely improved our depth, and will have a fourth line that can actually play hockey instead of just fight.

Is it really such a stretch to wait until a single game has been played (realistically, it should be multiple seasons) before we call Shanahan a failure?.

The players going out have far more NHL experience and NHL production then the players coming in, but its perceived we have increased our depth by bringing in cheaper less experienced players.

Dave Bolland has more NHL playoff games experience and production then all the replacements combined for example.

I wonder what that belief is based on?

Lots of transactions that can change team dynamics through the changes made in player personnel, management Dubas and assistant coaches.
 

666

Registered User
Jun 27, 2005
3,019
785
Lots of moves were made, just no headline grabbing ones that 666 seems to crave.

Is it really such a stretch to wait until a single game has been played (realistically, it should be multiple seasons) before we call Shanahan a failure?

Ooops I guess I forgot that this is the internet, and a Leafs fan forum to boot...

You know as well I as do that it has nothing to do with headline grabbing. It has to do with the word I chose "significant". Same GM, same coach, same top 6, same Clarkson etc. If you think that shuffling the bottom 6 is significant then I don't think you understand hockey.

You've already admitted to being a tanker so cheering for a team that is worse is your objective. Some of us would have preferred significant changes.
 

Neil Hamburger

Five Bagger!
Jun 15, 2010
3,553
6
Toronto
The players going out have far more NHL experience and NHL production then the players coming in, but its perceived we have increased our depth by bringing in cheaper less experienced players.

Dave Bolland has more NHL playoff games experience and production then all the replacements combined for example.

I wonder what that belief is based on?

I'm not particularly fond of paying 3rd-liners coming off of serious achilles injuries 5 + million per year over 5 years. I'd say that contract's a net negative. Not to mention the fact that Bolland only played 23 games last season, so we won't exactly be "losing" him from our line-up.

The only real loss to our bottom-six group was Kulemin, but again he got a contract way out of line for a guy who's put up 71 points over his last 188 games.

It's based on the fact that we won't have guys like Orr, Smithson, or McLaren wasting roster spots, allowing us to roll four lines who can actually play hockey.
 

paulster2626

Registered User
Oct 11, 2008
2,428
0
The players going out have far more NHL experience and NHL production then the players coming in, but its perceived we have increased our depth by bringing in cheaper less experienced players.

Dave Bolland has more NHL playoff games experience and production then all the replacements combined for example.

I wonder what that belief is based on?

Lots of transactions that can change team dynamics through the changes made in player personnel, management Dubas and assistant coaches.

I thought you were a fan of Chicago's model of shipping out high priced veterans (like Bolland) and replacing them with young homegrown up-and-coming talent on cheaper salaries.

I guess that only works for other teams?
 

paulster2626

Registered User
Oct 11, 2008
2,428
0
I'm not particularly fond of paying 3rd-liners coming off of serious achilles injuries 5 + million per year over 5 years. I'd say that contract's a net negative. Not to mention the fact that Bolland only played 23 games last season, so we won't exactly be "losing" him from our line-up.

The only real loss to our bottom-six group was Kulemin, but again he got a contract way out of line for a guy who's put up 71 points over his last 188 games.

It's based on the fact that we won't have guys like Orr, Smithson, or McLaren wasting roster spots, allowing us to roll four lines who can actually play hockey.

Mess has applauded Chicago's move of letting guys go who have become overpriced and replacing them with cheaper less-experienced players in the past - he's just changing his rhetoric to be anti-Leafs (again).
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,228
32,937
St. Paul, MN
I'm not particularly fond of paying 3rd-liners coming off of serious achilles injuries 5 + million per year over 5 years. I'd say that contract's a net negative. Not to mention the fact that Bolland only played 23 games last season, so we won't exactly be "losing" him from our line-up.

The only real loss to our bottom-six group was Kulemin, but again he got a contract way out of line for a guy who's put up 71 points over his last 188 games.

It's based on the fact that we won't have guys like Orr, Smithson, or McLaren wasting roster spots, allowing us to roll four lines who can actually play hockey.

Yep. Dave Bolland is damaged goods - he still hasn't recovered from his injury, I believe the latest reports were "he's planning on being healthy for training camp in Florida'. He played 23 games for us last season - that's not terribly hard to replace. The only player i'll really miss is Kulemin, but didn't really want to pay him 4 million plus long term.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,976
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Leafs Home Board
I'm not particularly fond of paying 3rd-liners coming off of serious achilles injuries 5 + million per year over 5 years. I'd say that contract's a net negative. Not to mention the fact that Bolland only played 23 games last season, so we won't exactly be "losing" him from our line-up.

The only real loss to our bottom-six group was Kulemin, but again he got a contract way out of line for a guy who's put up 71 points over his last 188 games.

It's based on the fact that we won't have guys like Orr, Smithson, or McLaren wasting roster spots, allowing us to roll four lines who can actually play hockey.

No question Bolland and his contract is overpaid for his production and his contribution so it was a good move in terms of cap management to let him go. Even though Leafs wanted to keep him and offered a significant amount of $ to try and keep him knowing he provides leadership, experience and other intangibles in addition to just goals and assists.

However that is a different debate then feeling that replacements at bargain bin prices increased team depth.

If you eliminate cap hit from the discussion then Bolland would be a far better depth player than any replacement, so his departure along with Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Raymond etc weakened team depth not strengthened it. IMO .. The players that departed got more $ and term on the open market which means they were in much higher demand and by reasonable deduction better then their replacements.

Playing guys like Orr and McLaren were a team/coaches choice, they could just as easily have played Holland and Ashton in their place or Bodie and Smith if they wanted to. All those players were available as options instead of goons. Basically the players that increased depth were available last year as replacement players. Bodie -- Holland -- Ashton could have been a 4th line option last season.
 

Morguee

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
3,002
184
I find it hilarious how people around here think that Shanahan somehow has the credentials to magically fix the Leafs. Just a reminder that this high school educated Hall of Fame player as absolutely ZERO experience running a team or business or anything. If HOF players made such great management why was Gretzky such a failure with Phoenix?

Leaf Nation absolutely MUST stop judging people by what they say and their past accomplishments (in different roles) and instead judge them by what they do.

Shanahan has kept the gm, the coach and the entire top 6 of a team that has 7 playoff games in a decade. That's what he's done and that means that so far he is an abject failure, regardless of what he SAYS.

I think Shanahan must read these boards. He read this post and said "suck on this" and hired a new analytics dept. GM's have come and gone and nothing has changed other then shuffling the deck. I believe it is a good thing they have a GM who is not to full of himself to admit that he doesn't know all. Sometimes it is good to know what you have before you get rid of it.
 

GordieHoweHatTrick

Registered User
Sep 20, 2009
16,461
280
Toronto
I think Shanahan must read these boards. He read this post and said "suck on this" and hired a new analytics dept. GM's have come and gone and nothing has changed other then shuffling the deck. I believe it is a good thing they have a GM who is not to full of himself to admit that he doesn't know all. Sometimes it is good to know what you have before you get rid of it.

The Leafs should've hired someone who'se fishing buddies with half the guys in the league :sarcasm: External hires are a breath of fresh air
 

indigobuffalo

Portage and Main
Feb 10, 2011
6,790
559
Winnipeg MB
Shanahan is running the show like a wise man, in the sense that a wise person knows that he knows very little.

Socrates, the Great greek philosopher, taught that only by asking questions can one truly learn. Answering questions is not as important as finding questions that need answering.

Looking back at Burke's reign, I realize that Burke is a very smart man, but he is not empirical in his methodology. He has many answers, but doesn't usually look to find questions. So he knows what he knows, and he feels it's enough to win with.

When Burke hired new personnel, he did so by accessing his network of people and getting the best-and-brightest people that matched his ideology. And there's nothing wrong with that if you happen to have the methodology that will win, (and Lord knows it was at least better than having no plan at all...).

But with Shanahan, we are looking for questions. That's exciting! Because now we are finding people that want to delve into the unknown. These new stats guys, like Dubas, Charron, etc., are all question-seekers. They're panning for questions in the sands of data.

It's going to yield answers along the way, but better yet, we will (organizationally) become wiser by knowing more questions exist. We're lightyears ahead of Burke's ideology now. We're expanding our knowledge by realizing that we don't know enough to win. So we learn.

It's a good, bright future we have ahead of us.
 

Tyler Biggs*

Guest
This is where Shanahan starts to define his influence in re-structuring the Maple Leafs - player development has been abysmal. Drafting has been woeful. Draft picks are assets, develop them and don't rush them into situations that they can't possibly succeed in.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
I thought you were a fan of Chicago's model of shipping out high priced veterans (like Bolland) and replacing them with young homegrown up-and-coming talent on cheaper salaries.

I guess that only works for other teams?

ummmm what?

young home grown talent, errr care to elaborate?

polka nope

robidas, errr nopes

konti nope

santa nope

booth nope

winnik nope

bodie nope

koma at 27 young?

fratten at 26 already young? nope

Holland, home grown? nope

ashton home grown, err nope



OH OH OH !!!!! I KNOW THE 7TH D, there ya go your bang on correct:shakehead
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,260
3,251
Vaughan, Ontario
Burke's bold moves brought the team to the playoffs. This years Leafs are MUCH different than the team that Burke built. His ENTIRE second line is gone. It would have been very interesting to see him finish what he started as opposed to watching Nonis destroy it.

He definitely deserved one more season to see his team evolve. They played well in a short season and made the playoffs. They would have done the same with Burke no doubt and maybe we make it last season as well with Burke still at the helm.
 

leafstilldeath*

Guest
He definitely deserved one more season to see his team evolve. They played well in a short season and made the playoffs. They would have done the same with Burke no doubt and maybe we make it last season as well with Burke still at the helm.

Do not know what Burkie would have done but one thing IMO wouldn't have happened


No Clarkson at 5.25 X 7 years
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,260
3,251
Vaughan, Ontario
This is where Shanahan starts to define his influence in re-structuring the Maple Leafs - player development has been abysmal. Drafting has been woeful. Draft picks are assets, develop them and don't rush them into situations that they can't possibly succeed in.

It's a crapshoot anyway and I doubt we do any better with draft picks from Shanahan and his non-existent experience with growing them. We want to be making the playoffs and drafting late anyways. He just needs to keep the team from getting rattled, bring in solid veterans and establish an identity. Last year we had a lot of screwing around and bickering and injuries.

How is he going to make us a better drafting/homegrown team? :help:
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,260
3,251
Vaughan, Ontario
Do not know what Burkie would have done but one thing IMO wouldn't have happened


No Clarkson at 5.25 X 7 years

Grabo at that money seems way better than Clarkson now. Grabo has tons of skill, speed and determination and never should have been a buyout. Even on the third line and 2nd PP he would be wayyy better than Clarkson, it's embarrassing.
 

leafstilldeath*

Guest
Grabo at that money seems way better than Clarkson now. Grabo has tons of skill, speed and determination and never should have been a buyout. Even on the third line and 2nd PP he would be wayyy better than Clarkson, it's embarrassing.

All the BS the Leafs have gone through can be summed up in one word: Carlyle
 

Territory

Registered User
Jan 31, 2014
6,370
627
Toronto
No question Bolland and his contract is overpaid for his production and his contribution so it was a good move in terms of cap management to let him go. Even though Leafs wanted to keep him and offered a significant amount of $ to try and keep him knowing he provides leadership, experience and other intangibles in addition to just goals and assists.

However that is a different debate then feeling that replacements at bargain bin prices increased team depth.

If you eliminate cap hit from the discussion then Bolland would be a far better depth player than any replacement, so his departure along with Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Raymond etc weakened team depth not strengthened it. IMO .. The players that departed got more $ and term on the open market which means they were in much higher demand and by reasonable deduction better then their replacements.

Playing guys like Orr and McLaren were a team/coaches choice, they could just as easily have played Holland and Ashton in their place or Bodie and Smith if they wanted to. All those players were available as options instead of goons. Basically the players that increased depth were available last year as replacement players. Bodie -- Holland -- Ashton could have been a 4th line option last season.

I wish you would stop using Bolland as an example. He played 9 healthy games for the Leafs. He was practically not even on the team.
 

glue

Registered User
Jan 30, 2006
4,470
2,656
Toronto
All the BS the Leafs have gone through can be summed up in one word: Carlyle

True...but I would add a 2nd word as well...Nonis. If the GM builds his team based solely on what the coach thinks..he's not much of a GM. Coach's job is to get the best out of the players he has..GM's job is to bring in the right players to put together a winning team..both have failed!
 

achtungbaby

Registered User
Oct 31, 2006
4,792
25
Lots of moves were made, just no headline grabbing ones that 666 seems to crave.

Out:
Gunnarson
Ranger
Gleason
McClement
Raymond
Bolland
Orr
McLaren
Kulemin
D'amigo

In:
Polak
Robidas
Booth
Santorelli
Winnik
Komarov
Kontiola
Frattin

We've definitely improved our depth, and will have a fourth line that can actually play hockey instead of just fight.

Is it really such a stretch to wait until a single game has been played (realistically, it should be multiple seasons) before we call Shanahan a failure?

Ooops I guess I forgot that this is the internet, and a Leafs fan forum to boot...

The thing is, we say things like this almost every season. Our bottom 6 may indeed be improved but it certainly isn't a given. I'm kind of thinking the same thing I thought last year, we might just sneak into the playoffs or we're a Kessel injury away from the bottom 5 which wouldn't be the worst thing to happen in a strong draft year.

Look at it that way and there's really no losing this season. Well... finishing 17th would suck.
 

darrylsittler27

Registered User
Oct 21, 2002
6,671
1,140
Changes...schmanges.

I dont know Shanny but he must know there is a good chance this is a bubble team. As such they have brought in cheap players to allow a blow up at deadline time.This is at best marginal and mostly moving chairs around.We lost the likes of Bolland,Kulemin,Gunnarsson etc. but did we really replace them? I don't expect this team to collapse but I dont expect the playoffs either(it will be close). Teams like Buffalo,Ottawa,Florida will be ahead of this team for years if we dont play our cards right here.Will this team win a cup? ROFL no! So who cares if we win one round?

Can we be real here, the rebuild is not over, unless you want to never win one in our lifetime. A mediocre team with no star C and too many question marks.

Bernier gets injured and we finish 18th leading us nowhere...again.
 

paulster2626

Registered User
Oct 11, 2008
2,428
0
I dont know Shanny but he must know there is a good chance this is a bubble team. As such they have brought in cheap players to allow a blow up at deadline time.This is at best marginal and mostly moving chairs around.We lost the likes of Bolland,Kulemin,Gunnarsson etc. but did we really replace them? I don't expect this team to collapse but I dont expect the playoffs either(it will be close). Teams like Buffalo,Ottawa,Florida will be ahead of this team for years if we dont play our cards right here.Will this team win a cup? ROFL no! So who cares if we win one round?

Can we be real here, the rebuild is not over, unless you want to never win one in our lifetime. A mediocre team with no star C and too many question marks.

Bernier gets injured and we finish 18th leading us nowhere...again.

Who said the rebuild was over? Who said this team will win a cup?

You're just making stuff up.

And personally, I would like it if the Leafs won a playoff round in 2015. If you wouldn't, then I suggest you call up Mess and arrange a hangout.
 

Portse91

Registered User
Sep 18, 2013
44
0
I dont know Shanny but he must know there is a good chance this is a bubble team. As such they have brought in cheap players to allow a blow up at deadline time.This is at best marginal and mostly moving chairs around.We lost the likes of Bolland,Kulemin,Gunnarsson etc. but did we really replace them? I don't expect this team to collapse but I dont expect the playoffs either(it will be close). Teams like Buffalo,Ottawa,Florida will be ahead of this team for years if we dont play our cards right here.Will this team win a cup? ROFL no! So who cares if we win one round?

Can we be real here, the rebuild is not over, unless you want to never win one in our lifetime. A mediocre team with no star C and too many question marks.

Bernier gets injured and we finish 18th leading us nowhere...again.

You cant lose a player you never really had. Plain and simple. I take Robidas, Polak over Gunnar, Ranger anyday. Kulemin is an effective bottom six guy, probably more so than anyome the leafs have signed. But if he got the same deal from thr leafs as he did on the island im sure wewould all be asking for Nonis's firing.
If booth plays like he has in the past (big if). The same upsideis there that Raymond had.
Winnik, Kontiola, Santana>>>>>>>>>> Orr, McClement, Bodie
Clarkson doesnt have to do much improve his embarrassing season of last year.
Rielly, Gardiner..one year older, theoretically one year wiser.

I dont know how there cant be optimism goi going into camp. Barring injuries and another epic collapse. I think this years team is just as good if not better then last years team
 

The Great Gazoo

Hello, dum dum
May 2, 2014
378
0
Isle of Van
ummmm what?

young home grown talent, errr care to elaborate?

polka nope

robidas, errr nopes

konti nope

santa nope

booth nope

winnik nope

bodie nope

koma at 27 young?

fratten at 26 already young? nope

Holland, home grown? nope

ashton home grown, err nope




OH OH OH !!!!! I KNOW THE 7TH D, there ya go your bang on correct:shakehead

Both have spent a year or more in the Leafs system. Maybe not drafted by the Leafs, but certainly in a large part developed by the Leafs. And what does it matter where they cam from? If the do the job, and do it at a reasonably cheap price, that is a good thing. Or are their contributions, no matter how significant, somehow diminished because they weren't originally selected by the Leafs?
 

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