Sergei Makarov vs Peter Stastny

[Batis]

My impression is rather that the more physical a defenceman tried to play against Makarov the more trouble that defenceman was generally in. Especially if they tried to step up and play physical in the neutral zone or around their defensive blue-line. In those situations Makarov would often just use his agility, skating and stickhandling to avoid them and instead move in on the net. I would also say that out of the great defencemen that Makarov played against during his prime Larry Robinson and especially Denis Potvin were definitely among the ones who had the most struggles containing him. Two top-10 defencemen of all time who both played very physical but their styles of play were seemingly a terrible fit against Makarovs style.

While it is a small sample size the numbers also support that Makarov did very well against them. Head-to-head against Potvin (Challenge Cup 79, Canada Cup 81 and WHC 86) Makarov scored 12 points in 6 games and against Robinson (Challenge Cup 79, WHC 81, Canada Cup 81 and 84, Super Series 79/80 and 85/86) Makarov scored 14 points in 11 games. He did of course not directly beat them on all of those points but in the case of Potvin that is actually not that far from the truth.

Just to be clear this is not meant as some kind of slight towards Potvin or Robinson but rather to point out that two top-10 defencemen of all time with physical styles of play had a very hard time playing against Makarov which in my opinion suggests that physical play may not have been that effective when defending against him.

 

[Big Phil]

The thing is, we saw what Stastny could and did do. He was definitely the face of the Nordiques. We are guessing with Makarov. Yes he probably is elite the entire 1980s as well as we know he put up an 86 point season in 1990. I would say from the snippets of games we saw with Makarov that Stastny just wasn't that dangerous and strong on the puck with Makarov. Of all the Canada Cups he scared the heck out of me. I can watch old tapes of those games, know the result, and I still get nervous when Makarov has the puck.

Makarov is one of those players I would love to see in an alternate universe in the 1980s in the NHL. Could he be like Stastny and be 2nd behind Gretzky in points that decade? We'll never know, but I would say that he could have.

 

[Merya]

Stastny adapted so perfectly, that it's almost a sin to make whatif comparisons with other warsawpact players. In ideal adaptation, Makarov would've continues what Bossy left and more. OTOH in Ideal situation Larionov would've been better than Oates, and Krutov better than Neely at least.
--
In the Soviet team, Makarov looked better than Bobby Hull or any Canadian winger ever since. He prolly was better too. But you need to remember, that this was 80s when PEDs were rampant. NHL was still such a pithy place, that players mostly used cocaine and efedrine, not systematic doping, except for enforcers who used anabolic steroids. (as far as we know for sure)
--
Since 90s and going on to this day, NHL teams feed at least questionable drugs to their players. Couple stars have been caught, but no real punishment has ever been given. The fact still is, that weak 18 year olds suddenly gain 10 kilos and develop a weirdly thick chin in the process. This coupled with laughable control and punishments makes NHL, like all American proleagues, more of a circus than real sport.
Money talks and bullshit walks. Some of us would still like a WADA controlled league tho!!!
--
Alpo Suhonen for one has verified that there was cocaine and PEDs widely available spread over tables in the lockerrooms.
--
Maybe a new topic. HF can't keep its zerotolerance anymore when illegal druguse has been raised by so many players.

 

[Fantomas]

I'm going to go with Stastny. In a scenario where Makarov comes to the NHL in 1980, I just don't see him putting up seven 100+ point seasons. The NHL in the 80s was a very physical league for starters and I'm not sure how Makarov would have handled that. I would like to know just how tall he was though as I've seen Makarov listed at anywhere from 5'9 to 5'11. Of course it would also depend what team he played for and if he had a center even half as talented as Stastny.

Even my grandmother had a couple of 100-point seasons in the 80s. Everyone did.

 

[The Panther]

Even my grandmother had a couple of 100-point seasons in the 80s. Everyone did.

Now, you're being silly. You're sort-of undermining your credibility as you obviously can't be objective about that era.

I'd say there was a period there -- probably c.1978 to 1982 or something -- where "100 point seasons" were more achievable to lower-order players than at any time before or since. I'm thinking of players like Blaine Stoughton in 1979-80 and (esp.) Mike Rodgers in 1979-1982, who had three 100-point seasons in a row (albeit barely) on an otherwise forgettable team with generally poor players. That would have been impossible even five years later. Dennis Maruk is another with 'inflated' numbers at that brief, start-of-the-80s, period. Those kinds of guys weren't big, didn't have longevity as stars, and weren't on good teams, yet had 100-point seasons because of a higher-scoring era and because they got huge minutes playing one-way hockey on their not-very-good teams, where responsible two-play wasn't a priority (Washington, however, did a 180-degree turn starting in about 1982, suddenly becoming a defensive powerhouse that would rival today's numbers).

But that was a brief blip. Basically, a 100-point season was a very big deal from 1983 to 1990. There were only seven 100-point players in 1986-87, which is 1/3 as many as in 1993 and the same number as in 2006 and 2007. Tim Kerr, Lanny McDonald, Brian Propp, Pat Lafontaine, Cam Neely, Ray Bourque, Joe Nieuwendyk are all elite-players of that era who never had a single 100-point season in the 1980s (Lafontaine did starting in 1990). Mike Gartner barely did it once in his entire career.

Getting back to Makarov, I don't think there's any doubt he could have been one of, say, the top-5 elite forwards of the 1980s in the NHL, if not the number two. But, "could have" isn't even the same as "probably would have". There's a lot of factors to consider there. Would he have enjoyed the North American game back then and adapted quickly? The results from the early-90s were sort-of mixed. A lot would have depended on what kind of team he ended up on, what kind of system, etc. The earlier in time you go back, the harder it would have been for European-born players to adapt to North America -- which is much to Stastny's credit. He seemed to do that very easily, which a lot of players -- even well after him -- couldn't.

Based on skill and ability, Makarov was the better player. But I would hesitate to state that Makarov "would have" done this or that in the NHL, because there are a lot of factors to take into account.

 

[Fantomas]

Now, you're being silly. You're sort-of undermining your credibility as you obviously can't be objective about that era.

I'd say there was a period there -- probably c.1978 to 1982 or something -- where "100 point seasons" were more achievable to lower-order players than at any time before or since. I'm thinking of players like Blaine Stoughton in 1979-80 and (esp.) Mike Rodgers in 1979-1982, who had three 100-point seasons in a row (albeit barely) on an otherwise forgettable team with generally poor players. That would have been impossible even five years later. Dennis Maruk is another with 'inflated' numbers at that brief, start-of-the-80s, period. Those kinds of guys weren't big, didn't have longevity as stars, and weren't on good teams, yet had 100-point seasons because of a higher-scoring era and because they got huge minutes playing one-way hockey on their not-very-good teams, where responsible two-play wasn't a priority (Washington, however, did a 180-degree turn starting in about 1982, suddenly becoming a defensive powerhouse that would rival today's numbers).

But that was a brief blip. Basically, a 100-point season was a very big deal from 1983 to 1990. There were only seven 100-point players in 1986-87, which is 1/3 as many as in 1993 and the same number as in 2006 and 2007. Tim Kerr, Lanny McDonald, Brian Propp, Pat Lafontaine, Cam Neely, Ray Bourque, Joe Nieuwendyk are all elite-players of that era who never had a single 100-point season in the 1980s (Lafontaine did starting in 1990). Mike Gartner barely did it once in his entire career.

Getting back to Makarov, I don't think there's any doubt he could have been one of, say, the top-5 elite forwards of the 1980s in the NHL, if not the number two. But, "could have" isn't even the same as "probably would have". There's a lot of factors to consider there. Would he have enjoyed the North American game back then and adapted quickly? The results from the early-90s were sort-of mixed. A lot would have depended on what kind of team he ended up on, what kind of system, etc. The earlier in time you go back, the harder it would have been for European-born players to adapt to North America -- which is much to Stastny's credit. He seemed to do that very easily, which a lot of players -- even well after him -- couldn't.

Based on skill and ability, Makarov was the better player. But I would hesitate to state that Makarov "would have" done this or that in the NHL, because there are a lot of factors to take into account.

Wow so many words over my little hyperbole. FF's post was silly and you know it.

 

[Neonmile]

Since it's might be relevant to this thread I tought i'd share an exercise I made a couple of summers back when Makarov was inducted to the hall of fame.

I got really curious about what Makarov's stats would like had he played his entire career in the NHL and decide to take on the task of finding. Now a warning, this is a very crude exercise given how hard it is to compare the NHL to the pre USSR fall Russian league, but I did the best I could.

I decide that the most accurate way of seeing how productive he might have been, was to compare him to other elite player who were in theirs 30s when he was in the NHL, and find out by what margin they were more productive in their 20s and apply the result to Makarov.

Makarov played in the NHL from 1989-90 to 1996-97, those were his age 31 to 38 season. So on hockey-reference play index, I search for every fowards that during this time span, played at least 250 games as 31-38 years old, and maintained a ppg average of 0.75 or more.

The resulting list was quite short. 11 players, two of whom are Makarov and Larionov, so that leave us with only 9 players to sample. Those players were, conveniently, Stastny, as well as Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Oates, Nicholls, Mullen, Cicarelli and Gartner. I look at the total points that those 9 players produce during their own age 31-38 seasons, regardless if those season fell within the 89-97 time span, and then added it all together. Then did the same for theirs age 19-30 seasons.

All in all, these nine players were collectively 41.878% more productive in theirs youngers years. For Makarov that means an average of 0.905 points per game from 89-90 to 96-97 become an average of 1.284 from 77-78 to 88-89.

Now the question was, over how many games? Given that the Russian League seasons were generally between 40-50 games and varied yearly. I decided that every game missed in Russia in a given season would count as 2 i the NHL. Turns out, Makarov was quite ironman, he miss 1 game in 81-82 and 14 in 82-83. Apart from those two seasons, he gets 80 games across the board. With the exception of 77-78 because I couldn't find how many games were player in the Russian league that season. It look like it was 36 but couldn't be certain. So to be conservative I arbitrarily mark 75 games for that year. I discounted the 76-77 season because he only played 11 games with a single point. It's irrelevant.

All of this amount to 925 games, at 1.284 pace that means 1,188 points. Splitting those points in the same goal-to-assist ratio he had back home means 539 goals and 649 assist. Add those up to his actual NHL totals and Makarov hypothetically concluded his career with 673 goals and 899 assist for 1,572 points over 1,349 games played.

Now, how do that split up for every year? Well this is the clumsiest part. I multiply by 12 the 1.284 ppg average for a total of 15.408. Then I added his yearly ppg in his age 19-30 season back in Russia for another total. I look what % of the grand total each season owned and attribute the same % from 15.408 to the same year in the NHL and converted in points Then I round-out the goal-to-assist ratio to match as closely as possible the actual one. (Look, I know, I said it was crude and clumsy)

This is the year by year result:

Season	GP	G	A	PTS
1977-78	75	35	25	60
1978-79	80	30	35	65
1979-80	80	49	66	115
1980-81	80	63	56	119
1981-82	78	50	67	117
1982-83	52	40	27	67
1983-84	80	61	62	123
1984-85	80	48	72	120
1985-86	80	56	59	115
1986-87	80	39	59	98
1987-88	80	33	65	98
1988-89	80	35	56	91

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Obviously nobody in their right mind will or should take these numbers at face value, but it's at least a little something. To uncover what we have here:

-I doubt very much that he would have topped off at ''only'' 123 points. Likewise, as constant as he was thorough his peak I don't think his 6 best seasons would be clustered within 8 points.
-The tail end of that stretch, however, fit nicely with the actual numbers he did put up in his first few year in the NHL.
-He has finish of 2, 2, 4, 8, 10, 10 in goals, his best are in 81 and 84
-He has finish of 4, 6, 7, 9, 9 in assist, his best is in 80
-He has finish of 3, 4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8 in points, his best come in 84
-He has finish of 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9 in points per game, his highest ame in 80 and 82

So to circle back to that Stastny comparison, that leave Makarov with (hypothetically) 948 points in 690 games, from 80-81 to 88-89. Statsny had 986 in 675. So a 1.46 ppg vs 1.37 for Makarov. So theoretically the Slovakian is more productive, but they are in the same tier. I guess Makarov would have been considered a slam dunk top 5 foward in the world for most of the decade, so was Stastny. That's a small part of the debate, and a oh, so speculative one of course.​

 

[The Panther]

The numbers above are probably about what I would have expected for Makarov in the 1980s on an average NHL team, given health and fairly high motivation.

As long as he didn't get into the donuts too soon, like Krutov, he's have been fine.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Besides Bossy, not too long before Stastny and Makarov we had Marcel Dionne piling up peak Stastny seasons. So yes, Makarov could have scored 150+ points and filled up the rest of the decade with 100+ ones.

 

[Batis]

Since it's might be relevant to this thread I tought i'd share an exercise I made a couple of summers back when Makarov was inducted to the hall of fame.

I got really curious about what Makarov's stats would like had he played his entire career in the NHL and decide to take on the task of finding. Now a warning, this is a very crude exercise given how hard it is to compare the NHL to the pre USSR fall Russian league, but I did the best I could.

I decide that the most accurate way of seeing how productive he might have been, was to compare him to other elite player who were in theirs 30s when he was in the NHL, and find out by what margin they were more productive in their 20s and apply the result to Makarov.

Makarov played in the NHL from 1989-90 to 1996-97, those were his age 31 to 38 season. So on hockey-reference play index, I search for every fowards that during this time span, played at least 250 games as 31-38 years old, and maintained a ppg average of 0.75 or more.

The resulting list was quite short. 11 players, two of whom are Makarov and Larionov, so that leave us with only 9 players to sample. Those players were, conveniently, Stastny, as well as Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Oates, Nicholls, Mullen, Cicarelli and Gartner. I look at the total points that those 9 players produce during their own age 31-38 seasons, regardless if those season fell within the 89-97 time span, and then added it all together. Then did the same for theirs age 19-30 seasons.

All in all, these nine players were collectively 41.878% more productive in theirs youngers years. For Makarov that means an average of 0.905 points per game from 89-90 to 96-97 become an average of 1.284 from 77-78 to 88-89.

Now the question was, over how many games? Given that the Russian League seasons were generally between 40-50 games and varied yearly. I decided that every game missed in Russia in a given season would count as 2 i the NHL. Turns out, Makarov was quite ironman, he miss 1 game in 81-82 and 14 in 82-83. Apart from those two seasons, he gets 80 games across the board. With the exception of 77-78 because I couldn't find how many games were player in the Russian league that season. It look like it was 36 but couldn't be certain. So to be conservative I arbitrarily mark 75 games for that year. I discounted the 76-77 season because he only played 11 games with a single point. It's irrelevant.

All of this amount to 925 games, at 1.284 pace that means 1,188 points. Splitting those points in the same goal-to-assist ratio he had back home means 539 goals and 649 assist. Add those up to his actual NHL totals and Makarov hypothetically concluded his career with 673 goals and 899 assist for 1,572 points over 1,349 games played.

Now, how do that split up for every year? Well this is the clumsiest part. I multiply by 12 the 1.284 ppg average for a total of 15.408. Then I added his yearly ppg in his age 19-30 season back in Russia for another total. I look what % of the grand total each season owned and attribute the same % from 15.408 to the same year in the NHL and converted in points Then I round-out the goal-to-assist ratio to match as closely as possible the actual one. (Look, I know, I said it was crude and clumsy)

This is the year by year result:

Season	GP	G	A	PTS
1977-78	75	35	25	60
1978-79	80	30	35	65
1979-80	80	49	66	115
1980-81	80	63	56	119
1981-82	78	50	67	117
1982-83	52	40	27	67
1983-84	80	61	62	123
1984-85	80	48	72	120
1985-86	80	56	59	115
1986-87	80	39	59	98
1987-88	80	33	65	98
1988-89	80	35	56	91

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Obviously nobody in their right mind will or should take these numbers at face value, but it's at least a little something. To uncover what we have here:

-I doubt very much that he would have topped off at ''only'' 123 points. Likewise, as constant as he was thorough his peak I don't think his 6 best seasons would be clustered within 8 points.
-The tail end of that stretch, however, fit nicely with the actual numbers he did put up in his first few year in the NHL.
-He has finish of 2, 2, 4, 8, 10, 10 in goals, his best are in 81 and 84
-He has finish of 4, 6, 7, 9, 9 in assist, his best is in 80
-He has finish of 3, 4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8 in points, his best come in 84
-He has finish of 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9 in points per game, his highest ame in 80 and 82

So to circle back to that Stastny comparison, that leave Makarov with (hypothetically) 948 points in 690 games, from 80-81 to 88-89. Statsny had 986 in 675. So a 1.46 ppg vs 1.37 for Makarov. So theoretically the Slovakian is more productive, but they are in the same tier. I guess Makarov would have been considered a slam dunk top 5 foward in the world for most of the decade, so was Stastny. That's a small part of the debate, and a oh, so speculative one of course.​

While I applaud and thank you for your effort I would strongly disagree with the notion "that the most accurate way of seeing how productive he might have been, was to compare him to other elite player who were in theirs 30s when he was in the NHL". The two main problems with this approach are in my opinion these.

1. It fails to take into account one very important part of the equation namely that Makarov had to adjust to a completely new culture of both playing hockey and living life at an advanced age for doing so. Something none of the other players in your study had to endure at that age. Had they needed to do so the drop-off of the quality of their play from their 20´s to their 30´s would most likely have been somewhat more steep. This excellent post from Theokritos gives a good picture how much more difficult it seemingly was to make these adjustments at an advanced age compared to earlier on in your career. https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/139252511/

2. When compared to NHL players the Soviet players generally declined at an earlier age. This has most often been explained by that the Soviet players were "ridden like rented mules" during their primes. Additionally a number of the NHL players in your study were relatively late bloomers when it comes to prime performance which means that their drop-off would be much smaller than the average. As a comparison look at the drop-off of great players like Bryan Trottier and Guy Lafleur for example. If their post-31 years old performances would have been the only thing we had to go on no one would believe that they would have had as dominant primes as they in fact had.

In my opinion a more fair and accurate way of speculating on how Makarov could/would have done in the NHL during his prime is looking at how Makarovs statistical dominance over his Soviet peers compares to modern Russian NHL players dominance over their Russian peers. When it comes to point production compared to their peers the only one who comes close to Makarovs dominance over time is a certain Alexander Ovechkin. To put this into perpective for this thread Ovechkins 7-year VsX is 98.4 which is clearly higher than Stastnys 7-year VsX of 88.4. So based on how much Makarov dominated his Soviet peers statistically during his prime I would say that he most likely was a clearly more productive player than Stastny.

 

[Sentinel]

I would also add that Makarov was far more defensively responsible than a typical 80s forward (yes, even more than Kurri and Messier), which, of course, hindered his production. To me Makarov was like a more consistent Fedorov.

 

[Batis]

I would also add that Makarov was far more defensively responsible than a typical 80s forward (yes, even more than Kurri and Messier), which, of course, hindered his production. To me Makarov was like a more consistent Fedorov.

While I do think that Makarovs abilities away from the puck have been somewhat overlooked here earlier I personally think that saying he was more defensively responsible than Kurri and Messier is taking it a bit far. Of course you are entitled to that opinion and yes during his prime Makarovs level of penalty killing could measure up to pretty much anyone but at even strenght I don´t view him as more than an above average player defensively. While Makarov was an incredible fore- and back-checker and he definitely was defensively responsible at even strenght as well I would still say that he mainly was a offensively minded player there and I personally don´t think that his offensive production at even strenght was that hindered by his defensive responsibilities. Anyway that is of course only my opinion as well. Still I would say that the fact that he played so much on the penalty kill during most of his prime probably can have at least somewhat hindered his overall production even if he was great when it comes to producing offensively when playing shorthanded.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Mike Gartner barely did it once in his entire career.

Wow.....this really kinda blows me away....not to diss Gardner at all....as he hit 30 goals all those times....but without looking I would've bet the house that he would've had at least ONE 100 point season.....sheesh!

 

[The Panther]

Wow.....this really kinda blows me away....not to diss Gardner at all....as he hit 30 goals all those times....but without looking I would've bet the house that he would've had at least ONE 100 point season.....sheesh!

He had one in 1984-85, but with 102. That was it.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

He had one in 1984-85, but with 102. That was it.

ah, ok *thumbs up*

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

There's probably no comparison between Makarov and Stastny. Using VsX applied to the Soviet league, and using Gabriel Desjardins' "league equivalencies" (here) to adjust for league strength:

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS)
1980	68	53	#3 (Shalimov)	128.3
1981	79	61	#2 (Kasputin)	129.5
1982	75	71	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	105.6
1983	42	57	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	73.7
1984	73	51	#3 (Drozdetzky)	143.1
1985	65	53	#2 (Krutov)	122.6
1986	62	45	Top 6	137.8
1987	53	50	#2 (Krutov)	106.0
1988	68	51	#3 (Sukhanov)	133.3
1989	54	41	#2 (Krutov)	131.7
7-year VsX				132.3
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				120.4
10-year VsX				121.2
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				110.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

One problem that I noticed was that Makarov was significantly more durable than many of his peers, which may somewhat inflate these VsX scores (since most top of the NHL's top scorers also tend to play near-full seasons). As such, I also did a VsX for points per game:

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS/GP)
1980	1.55	1.22	#3 (Mikhailov)	127.0
1981	1.61	1.39	#2 (Kasputin)	115.8
1982	1.63	1.51	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	107.9
1983	1.4	1.4	#2 (Makarov)	100.0
1984	1.66	1.28	Top 6	129.7
1985	1.63	1.33	#2 (Krutov)	122.6
1986	1.55	1.3	#2 (Larionov)	119.2
1987	1.33	1.28	#2 (Krutov)	103.9
1988	1.33	1.19	#2 (Sukhanov)	111.8
1989	1.23	0.93	#3 (Chistyakov)	132.3
7-year VsX				122.6
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				111.6
10-year VsX				117.0
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				106.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

From Hockey Outsider's VsX summaries:

Rank	Player	7-year VsX		10-year VsX
1	Wayne Gretzky	155.6	Wayne Gretzky	144.7
2	Phil Esposito	130.4	Gordie Howe	118.1
3	Gordie Howe	125.5	Phil Esposito	117.6
4	Mario Lemieux	119.8	Mario Lemieux	112.0
5	Bobby Orr	114.8	Sergei Makarov (est.)	106.5
6	Jaromir Jagr	114.2	Jaromir Jagr	105.9
7	Sergei Makarov (est.)	111.6	Stan Mikita	102.5
8	Bobby Hull	108.3	Bobby Hull	101.8
9	Stan Mikita	107.8	Jean Beliveau	100.0
10	Jean Beliveau	105.7	Sidney Crosby	99.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think that given how much Makarov dominated the Soviet league in the 80's, seeing him around Jagr's ballpark offensively makes sense. The biggest question mark is the league adjustment factor of 0.91. Given that Desjardins derived the number from the 90's, I feel that it might be a bit of an underestimate for the Soviet league of the 70's and 80's.

EDIT (July 23, 2018): I noticed an anomaly for 1988-89 where the VsX benchmark would have gone to #3 (0.93 PTS/GP) under standard VsX rules, but it's such a drop that I decided to go "fudge it" (or something that sounds vaguely like that) leave the benchmark as #2. It's pretty unlikely that Makarov had his best season when it was his actual weakest season in the Soviet league.

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS/GP)	VsX adj.	Adj. GP	NHL PTS (est.)
1980	1.55	1.22	#3 (Mikhailov)	127.0	115.6	80	138
1981	1.61	1.39	#2 (Kasputin)	115.8	105.4	80	142
1982	1.63	1.51	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	107.9	98.2	78	141
1983	1.4	1.4	#2 (Makarov)	100.0	91.0	55	85
1984	1.66	1.28	Top 6	129.7	118.0	80	143
1985	1.63	1.33	#2 (Krutov)	122.6	111.5	80	151
1986	1.55	1.3	#2 (Larionov)	119.2	108.5	80	153
1987	1.33	1.28	#2 (Krutov)	103.9	94.6	80	102
1988	1.33	1.19	#2 (Sukhanov)	111.8	101.7	80	133
1989	1.23	1.17	#2 (Krutov, *fudge*)	105.1	95.7	80	133
TOTALS						773	1321
7-year VsX				119.2
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				108.4
10-year VsX				114.3
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				104.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, how does it look with the fudge?

Rank	Player	7-year VsX		10-year VsX
1	Wayne Gretzky	155.6	Wayne Gretzky	144.7
2	Phil Esposito	130.4	Gordie Howe	118.1
3	Gordie Howe	125.5	Phil Esposito	117.6
4	Mario Lemieux	119.8	Mario Lemieux	112.0
5	Bobby Orr	114.8	Jaromir Jagr	105.9
6	Jaromir Jagr	114.2	Sergei Makarov (est.)	104.0
7	Sergei Makarov (est.)	108.4	Stan Mikita	102.5
8	Bobby Hull	108.3	Bobby Hull	101.8
9	Stan Mikita	107.8	Jean Beliveau	100.0
10	Jean Beliveau	105.7	Sidney Crosby	99.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With the fudge, with a somewhat pessimistic league equivalency, Makarov falls somewhere between Hull/Mikita and Jagr, which is still incredible, IMHO.

 

[blogofmike]

As long as he didn't get into the donuts too soon, like Krutov, he's have been fine.

Is that the chin growth Merya was talking about?

 

[blogofmike]

There's probably no comparison between Makarov and Stastny. Using VsX applied to the Soviet league, and using Gabriel Desjardins' "league equivalencies" (here) to adjust for league strength:

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS)
1980	68	53	#3 (Shalimov)	128.3
1981	79	61	#2 (Kasputin)	129.5
1982	75	71	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	105.6
1983	42	57	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	73.7
1984	73	51	#3 (Drozdetzky)	143.1
1985	65	53	#2 (Krutov)	122.6
1986	62	45	Top 6	137.8
1987	53	50	#2 (Krutov)	106.0
1988	68	51	#3 (Sukhanov)	133.3
1989	54	41	#2 (Krutov)	131.7
7-year VsX				132.3
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				120.4
10-year VsX				121.2
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				110.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

One problem that I noticed was that Makarov was significantly more durable than many of his peers, which may somewhat inflate these VsX scores (since most top of the NHL's top scorers also tend to play near-full seasons). As such, I also did a VsX for points per game:

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS/GP)
1980	1.55	1.22	#3 (Mikhailov)	127.0
1981	1.61	1.39	#2 (Kasputin)	115.8
1982	1.63	1.51	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	107.9
1983	1.4	1.4	#2 (Makarov)	100.0
1984	1.66	1.28	Top 6	129.7
1985	1.63	1.33	#2 (Krutov)	122.6
1986	1.55	1.3	#2 (Larionov)	119.2
1987	1.33	1.28	#2 (Krutov)	103.9
1988	1.33	1.19	#2 (Sukhanov)	111.8
1989	1.23	0.93	#3 (Chistyakov)	132.3
7-year VsX				122.6
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				111.6
10-year VsX				117.0
w/ league adj. (x0.91)				106.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

From Hockey Outsider's VsX summaries:

Rank	Player	7-year VsX		10-year VsX
1	Wayne Gretzky	155.6	Wayne Gretzky	144.7
2	Phil Esposito	130.4	Gordie Howe	118.1
3	Gordie Howe	125.5	Phil Esposito	117.6
4	Mario Lemieux	119.8	Mario Lemieux	112.0
5	Bobby Orr	114.8	Sergei Makarov (est.)	106.5
6	Jaromir Jagr	114.2	Jaromir Jagr	105.9
7	Sergei Makarov (est.)	111.6	Stan Mikita	102.5
8	Bobby Hull	108.3	Bobby Hull	101.8
9	Stan Mikita	107.8	Jean Beliveau	100.0
10	Jean Beliveau	105.7	Sidney Crosby	99.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think that given how much Makarov dominated the Soviet league in the 80's, seeing him around Jagr's ballpark offensively makes sense. The biggest question mark is the league adjustment factor of 0.91. Given that Desjardins derived the number from the 90's, I feel that it might be a bit of an underestimate for the Soviet league of the 70's and 80's.

That is very impressive. Would that not still be indicative of how Makarov could have done if the Red Army came with him? He did join a championship team in Calgary and did not score like that. In part due to the style of play and Crisp and Makarov being unable or unwilling to change.

 

[Pominville Knows]

That is very impressive. Would that not still be indicative of how Makarov could have done if the Red Army came with him? He did join a championship team in Calgary and did not score like that. In part due to the style of play and Crisp and Makarov being unable or unwilling to change.

I'm not the first one in this thread to point out, although maybe in a bit of a new way, that what if Makarov never knew the KLM-line and went straight into an average NHL one at age 20? WHA at 18 or earlier works wonders as well.
Now he had to do it at 31 after only ever knowing about one line, probably to some extent burnt out CCCP-style as well.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

That is very impressive. Would that not still be indicative of how Makarov could have done if the Red Army came with him? He did join a championship team in Calgary and did not score like that. In part due to the style of play and Crisp and Makarov being unable or unwilling to change.

I suspect that we've been underestimating the difficulty of transitioning from Europe to North America once a player has reached a certain age. I looked up the points of every player since the O6 era who had their first NHL season at age 29 or older on H-R.com, sorted by adjusted points. The results were surprising (at least to me).

Rk	Player	Adj. PTS	Tm	Lg.	Pos	Season	Age	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	Benchmark	VsX (points)
1	Sergei Makarov*	72	CGY	NHL	RW	1989-90	31	80	24	62	86	33	129	66.7
2	Marian Stastny	65	QUE	NHL	RW	1981-82	29	74	35	54	89	-5	147	60.5
3	Ivan Hlinka	44	VAN	NHL	C	1981-82	32	72	23	37	60	21	147	40.8
4	Ed Hoekstra	39	PHI	NHL	C	1967-68	30	70	15	21	36	5	84	42.9
5	Milan Novy	38	WSH	NHL	C	1982-83	31	73	18	30	48	4	124	38.7
6	Igor Larionov*	37	VAN	NHL	C	1989-90	29	74	17	27	44	-5	129	34.1
7	Lubomir Sekeras	37	MIN	NHL	D	2000-01	32	80	11	23	34	-8	96	35.4
8	Viacheslav Fetisov*	35	NJD	NHL	D	1989-90	31	72	8	34	42	9	129	32.6
9	Gene Ubriaco	35	PIT	NHL	C	1967-68	30	65	18	15	33	-11	84	39.3
10	Bob Barlow	33	MNS	NHL	C	1969-70	34	70	16	17	33	-4	86	38.4
11	Jiri Dopita	31	PHI	NHL	C	2001-02	33	52	11	16	27	9	90	30.0
12	Bill Sutherland	31	PHI	NHL	LW	1967-68	33	60	20	9	29	1	84	34.5
13	Miroslav Dvorak	30	PHI	NHL	D	1982-83	31	80	4	33	37	28	124	29.8
14	Jaroslav Hlinka	30	COL	NHL	LW	2007-08	31	63	8	20	28	6	106	26.4
15	Lars-Erik Sjoberg	29	WIN	NHL	D	1979-80	35	79	7	27	34	-33	119	28.6
16	Vladimir Krutov	28	VAN	NHL	LW	1989-90	29	61	11	23	34	-5	129	26.4
17	Cliff Schmautz	28	TOT	NHL	RW	1970-71	31	57	13	19	32	-8	90	35.6
18	Jaroslav Pouzar	27	EDM	NHL	LW	1982-83	31	74	15	18	33	18	124	26.6
19	Bob Fitchner	26	QUE	NHL	C	1979-80	29	70	11	20	31	-24	119	26.1
20	Ilja Byakin	25	EDM	NHL	D	1993-94	30	44	8	20	28	-3	120	23.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Only Marian Stastny (former Czech league scoring champion) had more raw points. Marian Stastny and Sergei Makarov were the only age 29+ first season players who scored more than 60 points. Makarov had the best VsX score and best +/- of any age 29+ first season players.

 

[Merya]

Is that the chin growth Merya was talking about?

Don't be a derp. Check Selänne year before NHL and two years after. Check Saku Koivu 1995, check him three years later.
Krutov had his own vice tho, hungry man could eat as much as he could for first time in his life.

It's clear that at least in 2014, one player got very publicly caught. (but wasn't punished, which is hilarious and tragic) It's also clear to anyone who isn't totally naiive, that players who play or aspire to play in the pro circus leagues will sometimes take shortcuts.

 

[Troubadour]

Don't be a derp. Check Selänne year before NHL and two years after. Check Saku Koivu 1995, check him three years later.
Krutov had his own vice tho, hungry man could eat as much as he could for first time in his life.

It's clear that at least in 2014, one player got very publicly caught. (but wasn't punished, which is hilarious and tragic) It's also clear to anyone who isn't totally naiive, that players who play or aspire to play in the pro circus leagues will sometimes take shortcuts.

Hey man, I checked, only to find no visible difference:

Teemu in 1992:

This is probably even older:

With the Ducks:

I honestly can't see any changes in his facial structure that would hint at anything fishy. He just matured and aged.