Sergei Fedorov (1993-94) vs Alexander Ovechkin (2007-08) vs Jaromir Jagr (1998-99)

[Troubadour]

Look, what Jagr did was great. That season and the ones around it. He was the most consistent offensive force in the league for many years. But his overall impact was not as high as those of Feds (for one year) and Ovy.

Look, we all have our instincts, favorites and tastes. Eye test aside, when objective measures give you something like this (a calender year of 1999 in numbers):

...it really does put things into perspective. In that time span, Jagr outscored the third guy (Paul Kariya) by 59 points.

The Selanne and Kariya punch, arguably the best offensive combo in the league, and their total points combined beat Jagr's point totals by relatively puny fifty points.

It gets even more outrageous when you realize that very often, Selanne assisted on Kariya's goals and vice versa. And to top it off, this was when the league scoring was at its all time low.

The truth is, as long as we have guys like you saying how Ovi's spike year was more impactful than what Jagr was doing at the back end of the nineties, what Jagr was doing in the late nineties is criminally underrated.

EDIT: Maybe nobody else cares about this, but I searched for the best calendar years since 1970 and found out that only four times in history was the highest scoring player beaten by the combined point totals of the two guys behind him by fewer points than Jagr in 1999.

Unsurprisingly, all four occasions took place in the eighties, in all instances, the leader was named Gretzky and he never narrowed the gap below 40 points. On one of those four occasions, it was 49.

What is even more fascinating; if we calculate only even strength points in 1999, Kariya's and Selanne's point totals combined beat Jagr's by a puny 17 ES points. Only Gretzky ever topped that. Twice. In 1981, he trailed by only 10 ES points behind the sum of Stastny's and Dionne's equal strength points. But then again, Gretzky played five more games than Dionne and four more than Stastny. Even better, his ES point total finished just a point behind the combined ES point totals of Lemieux and Kurri in 1986. But again, he had 8 extra games on them.

Another interesting thing I realized was that the peak calendar year stats were perfectly in line with what at least the leading players were capable of amassing during their peak regular regular seasons.

Gretzky peaked at 216, Bernie Nicholls at 150, Ovechkin at 113, Crosby at 126, Malkin at 124, only Lemieux got sort of undersold at "only" 192.

There were and are guys whose peak calendar years are better than any of their peak seasons. Lecavalier in 2007 (115) who beat Crosby 07 by a point. Or Heatley 2007. Or Kucherov 2017.

Jagr had two mammoth calendar years. 1995 (149 points, some of which were influenced by Mario) and 1999 (152 points all of which were influenced by the fact that he was at the very top of his game).


Pretty fascinating.

 

[daver]

If the difference between Ovechkin and Crosby defensively (which you harp on about to no end) is a mole hill, the difference between Jagr and a prime Fedorov in the D zone is Mount Everest by comparison.

OK, I was just pointing out that Federov's season wasn't necessarily Hart-worthy from an offensive production perspective; his Selke helped him win it. Then the question becomes how much value should one put on the contribution Federov made defensively vs. Jagr's clearly superior offensive season. Hyperbole about Jagr's defensive effort does nothing to accomplish this.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

OK, I was just pointing out that Federov's season wasn't necessarily Hart-worthy from an offensive production perspective; his Selke helped him win it.

I disagree. Who wins the Hart that year, if we turn Fedorov into a player who is average defensively with the same scoring totals?

Gretzky wasn’t close in the voting, from memory he wasn’t even a finalist. Fedorov outscored Gretzky by 18 goals, and Gretzky was below average that year in his own zone, posting a career-worst -25. Hasek played less than 60 games, which in those days was considered unimpressive for a Vezina winner, particularly in an 84 game season. Nobody else comes close really.

I maintain Fedorov still wins that Hart on the merits of his play in the offensive zone. When you think about that, and add a Selke to such a season, you start to get an idea of how special it was.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I disagree. Who wins the Hart that year, if we turn Fedorov into a player who is average defensively with the same scoring totals?

Gretzky wasn’t close in the voting, from memory he wasn’t even a finalist. Fedorov outscored Gretzky by 18 goals, and Gretzky was below average that year in his own zone, posting a career-worst -25. Hasek played less than 60 games, which in those days was considered unimpressive for a Vezina winner, particularly in an 84 game season. Nobody else comes close really.

I maintain Fedorov still wins that Hart on the merits of his play in the offensive zone. When you think about that, and add a Selke to such a season, you start to get an idea of how special it was.

John Vanbiesbrouck.

 

[daver]

I disagree. Who wins the Hart that year, if we turn Fedorov into a player who is average defensively with the same scoring totals?

Gretzky wasn’t close in the voting, from memory he wasn’t even a finalist. Fedorov outscored Gretzky by 18 goals, and Gretzky was below average that year in his own zone, posting a career-worst -25. Hasek played less than 60 games, which in those days was considered unimpressive for a Vezina winner, particularly in an 84 game season. Nobody else comes close really.

I maintain Fedorov still wins that Hart on the merits of his play in the offensive zone. When you think about that, and add a Selke to such a season, you start to get an idea of how special it was.

He would certainly lose the Hart to Jagr.

 

[Troubadour]

He would certainly lose the Hart to Jagr.

I wouldn't be thaaat confident about this. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[daver]

I wouldn't be thaaat confident about this. Maybe, maybe not.

If we look at the strength of their Hart wins, Jagr's is more impressive with Fedorov's Selke being front and centre.

 

[Troubadour]

But if they go against one another, the outcome could be completely different.

 

[Orange Dragon]

That 1999 year Jagr's point totals really blew my mind. Those are in Lemieux/Gretzky territory IMHO. 40% more points than player no. 2. and 78% more than no. 10. Just wow.

Edit: Yeah, not really.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

jagr easily and he had worse teammates

 

[psycat]

Jagr
Ovechkin
Fedorov

(In reality Malkin is ahead of Fedorov, and arguably Ovechkin, aswell. Forsberg and Fedorov is pretty much a tie for best season, obviously Foppa was a much better player in general)

 

[Sentinel]

I disagree. Who wins the Hart that year, if we turn Fedorov into a player who is average defensively with the same scoring totals?

Gretzky wasn’t close in the voting, from memory he wasn’t even a finalist.

I maintain Fedorov still wins that Hart on the merits of his play in the offensive zone. When you think about that, and add a Selke to such a season, you start to get an idea of how special it was.

Not only Gretzky wasn't a finalist, he did not receive a SINGLE VOTE. The only time in history for an Art Ross winner.

If offense is all you care about (like daver does, because that's how Penguins played), than yeah, Jagr is significantly ahead. But given that the ice is actually 200 ft. long...

Jagr
Ovechkin
Fedorov

(In reality Malkin is ahead of Fedorov, and arguably Ovechkin, aswell. Forsberg and Fedorov is pretty much a tie for best season, obviously Foppa was a much better player in general)

There is so much wrong with this post, I am not even going to start.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

jagr easily and he had worse teammates

Already shown to be false up thread

The fact that young players on the 2007-08 Capitals would later break out doesn't affect how little help Ovechkin had that particular season.

 

[Troubadour]

Already shown to be false up thread

The fact that young players on the 2007-08 Capitals would later break out doesn't affect how little help Ovechkin had that particular season.

Did you ever check Straka's stats when he was not playing around/along with Jagr? The truth is, he was at least partly Jagr's product. And another simple truth is, Jagr made players around him better to a much greater extent than Ovechkin ever did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Did you ever check Straka's stats when he was not playing around/along with Jagr? The truth is, he was at least partly Jagr's product. And another simple truth is, Jagr made players around him better to a much greater extent than Ovechkin ever did.

Wasn't Straka-Lang-Kovalev the line during Straka's career year?

Anyway, ignore Straka and Jagr's support was a little worse than Ovechkin's.

I absolutely agree with you that Jagr made players better more than Ovechkin did.

But there are numerous players who had their best career seasons with Ovechkin.
.

 

[Troubadour]

Wasn't Straka-Lang-Kovalev the line during Straka's career year?

Anyway, ignore Straka and Jagr's support was a little worse than Ovechkin's.

I absolutely agree with you that Jagr made players better more than Ovechkin did.

But there are numerous players who had their best career seasons with Ovechkin.
.

Oh it was, but I thought we were talking 98/99. And even 00/01 was a bit of a perfect storm, all of them peaking or nearly peaking at the same time, and Jagr, as wretched as he was for a good chunk of the year, still attracting a lot of attention.

Which wasn't meant as a stab at Straka who was great to watch and could step up (as in the 99 play offs). It just hit me that off the Pens / without Jagr around, his numbers suffered. Also, I remember his quote where he said something to the effect of "without Jagr, I most likely would not have made it in the NHL at all." Which probably would have had more to do with his size than skill.

Anyway, I think Ovechkin's and Jagr's supporting casts were fairly similar in terms of shoddiness. Although I would take peak Straka over rookie Backstrom.