Sergei Fedorov (1993-94) vs Alexander Ovechkin (2007-08) vs Jaromir Jagr (1998-99)

Which season is the best?


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Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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Fedorov's season loses some lustre because he was playing like a boss in the first half before finishing the season with a whimper and allowing Gretzky to take the Art Ross trophy. Check the splits: just 43 points in 37 post-all-star games in a very high scoring era.

Jagr's season is good, but he had better ones in '95-96 and '05-06. And yeah, the secondary assists.

Ovechkin-Jagr-Fedorov.
 

The Panther

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Fedorov's season loses some lustre because he was playing like a boss in the first half before finishing the season with a whimper and allowing Gretzky to take the Art Ross trophy. Check the splits: just 43 points in 37 post-all-star games in a very high scoring era.
That's interesting; I hadn't realized that. He was never ahead of Gretzky in 1993-94, though, I don't think. Gretzky also fell off badly during that season (which was unusual in his career to that point). Up to the All-Star game, Gretzky had 82 points in 45 games (pace 153) and after it, he had 48 in 36 (pace 112). But yeah, Gretzky was winding down a useless team-season in L.A. with the owner heading to jail, and Fedorov was on an up and comer with some good players. You'd think he'd have put the pedal to the metal and gone for that Art Ross.
Jagr's season is good, but he had better ones in '95-96 and '05-06. And yeah, the secondary assists.
First of all, calling his 1998-99 season "good" is a massive understatement. It might be the best season by any forward in the past 22 years and it's only "good"? Tough crowd.

I think it's quite debatable whether his 1995-96 was better. That season, the Pens were still stacked with Mario on the (numerous) power-plays for Jagr to play with. The Pens in '96 scored 120 more goals (1.5 per game) than the Pens in '99, yet Jagr dropped only 22 points. So, the team scored 33% fewer goals, while Jagr himself scored only 15% fewer points, despite having no Mario, Francis, Zubov, or Sandstrom to play with.

I agree that Jagr's 2005-06 gets strangely overlooked (it was itself one of the best seasons by anybody in the last 20 years), but I don't think it's on par with 1999 -- not even close, when you consider how many more power-plays there were that season, and when you consider that he ultimately lost the scoring title, but won it by 20 points in '99.
 

Fantomas

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Points this, points that. Let's use another metric: goals created credits Jagr with 47 in '05-06 and 46 in '98-99.

It's close, but Jagr's '98-99 season is a little overrated.
 

Felidae

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What happened to Kurri in '85-'87, Selanne in '93, '97-'99, Hasek in '94 to '99, etc.?

Anyway, of the three you mentioned, I think I'm gonna go with Jagr in 1998-99. There weren't really any other stars on that team, and he won the scoring title by 20 points at the height of the DPE. He led the NHL in assists and could certainly have led in goals if he had been a less well-rounded offensive player (he was only off by 3). He wasn't playing for a powerhouse -- just an average team, really, where a hugely talented player (Alex Kovalev) put up 46 points. He was just at his peak, physically.

Admittedly I didn't really consider other seasons due to how much these 3 seasons have been talked about in terms of greatest seasons by a European forward. So I just made the poll based off seemed to be the consensus

It's debatable whether 93 was Selanne's best. In 1996 and 1998 he was 2nd in points only to Lemieux and Jagr, and arguably his best season competed with Jagr's 127 point season. So I think that omits him.

Jari Kurri's 1984-85 season is more impressive than I thought and seems underrated. With the 4th Selke finish and having a noticeable goal-scoring lead over 3rd place. Comparing his season and Fedorov's individually, Kurri was clearly the better goal scorer, and perhaps that gap being larger than Fedorov's superior defense. But it's impossible to ignore Gretzky. He's obviously still a top 10 point producer and a capable goal scorer (14th goal scoring finish) as evidenced by his 1988 season without Gretzky. But is he still a top 3 point producer and goal scorer without him? I don't know the linemate situation, but if he was, in fact, playing with Gretzky regularly that season then im not sure anyone can know the answer to that question.
 

The Panther

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Jari Kurri's 1984-85 season is more impressive than I thought and seems underrated. With the 4th Selke finish and having a noticeable goal-scoring lead over 3rd place. Comparing his season and Fedorov's individually, Kurri was clearly the better goal scorer, and perhaps that gap being larger than Fedorov's superior defense. But it's impossible to ignore Gretzky. He's obviously still a top 10 point producer and a capable goal scorer (14th goal scoring finish) as evidenced by his 1988 season without Gretzky. But is he still a top 3 point producer and goal scorer without him? I don't know the linemate situation, but if he was, in fact, playing with Gretzky regularly that season then im not sure anyone can know the answer to that question.
It's understandable that Kurri's 1984-85 gets a little overlooked because of the Gretzky-factor. And yes, of course Gretzky & Kurri were linemates. I basically agree that this season doesn't compete with the others listed in the OP... BUT if were to include playoffs, it would, I think. Kurri scored 19 playoff goals in 18 games, giving him 90 goals total on the season in 91 total games (while going +101), while getting a bunch of Selke votes, too. I mean, that's a crazy season. But yeah, Gretzky.


(Comes back after checking stats... a rather arduous procedure, but I was curious.)

So, yeah, I checked all of Kurri's goal during 1984-85. It's almost surprising...

Of Kurri's 71 regular season goals, Gretzky assisted on 56 of them (79%).
Of these 56 assists by Gretzky, 45 were primary assists (63%) and 11 were secondary.

Of Kurri's 19 playoff goals, Gretzky assisted on 15 of them (79%).
Of these 15 assists by Gretzky, 14 were primary assists (74%) and 1 was secondary.

Wow.

In sum, then, Jari Kurri scored 90 goals during the full season and Gretzky assisted on 71 of them (79%). But what's more amazing is that Gretzky had the primary assist on 59 of the 90 goals (66%).
 

bathdog

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Didn't someone (@quoipourquoi? ) show that Jagr got an unusually high number of secondary assists in 1998-99 compared to surrounding seasons? Also, Jagr saw an insane amount of ice time that year in a way that Fedorov and Ovechkin really didn't in their best seasons. Takes a bit of the luster off Jagr's season, which would otherwise look to be #1 at first glance.

People seem to so often overlook this when comparing seasons to their peers. Jagr did see a ton of TOI and I think it definitely plays a role during his peak. But the 3 best seasons of Ovechkin/Malkin they also posted relatively high (not in what Jagr-land) TOI - hardly a coincidence there is a correlation between opportunity and offensive output.


PlayerTOI/GPRank among own seasonsRank total TOI vs fwd peersRank total TOI vs fwd peers SH excludedEdge vs top10 scorers (SH included)
Ovechkin 07/0823:061st2nd1st+11.0%
Malkin 07/0821:192nd8th6th+1.5%
Ovechkin 08/0923:002nd2nd3rd+9.1%
Malkin 08/0922:311st1st1st+11.1%
Ovechkin 09/1021:483rd34th14th-5.6%
Malkin 11/1221:013rd35th17th-5.2%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I was too lazy to deduct SH TOI when comparing to top10 scorers, so they almost certainly saw higher amount of offensive opportunity than the numbers above would suggest since they played relatively little on the PK.

Art Ross winners relative rank among forwards since 2005-lockout:

PlayerRank
Thornton 05/0610th
Crosby 06/0722nd
Ovechkin 07/082nd
Malkin 08/091st
Sedin 09/1023rd
Sedin 10/1140th
Malkin 11/1235th
St Louis 12/132nd
Crosby 13/141st
Benn 14/156th
Kane 15/162nd
McDavid 16/173rd
McDavid 17/183rd
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Beyond telepathic twins, really only Malkin sticks out among winners.

Average relative TOI rank among forwards for top3 in the scoring race since 2005-lockout:

PlayersAvg rank
Thornton (10th) Jagr (3rd), Ovechkin (5th)6th
Crosby (22nd), Thornton (15th) Lecavalier (3rd)13th
Ovechkin (2nd), Malkin (8th), Iginla (5th)5th
Malkin (1st), Ovechkin (2nd), Crosby (13th)5th
Sedin (23rd), Crosby (3rd), Ovechkin (34th)20th
Sedin (40th), St Louis (4th), Perry (1st)15th
Malkin (35th), Stamkos (2nd), Giroux (17th)18th
St Louis (2nd), Stamkos (1st), Ovechkin (7th)3rd
Crosby (1st), Getzlaf (10th), Giroux (8th)6th
Benn (6th), Tavares (1st), Crosby (28th)12th
Kane (2nd), Benn (3rd), Crosby (4th)3rd
McDavid (3rd), Crosby (41st), Kane (1st)15th
McDavid (3rd), Giroux (9th), Kucherov (24th)12th
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Average rank for all these 39 player seasons: 10th.
Median rank for all these 39 player seasons: 5th.

And these rank # are still polluted by players who play a significant amount of SH TOI.

I agree. I think this season deserves to be there too.

Malkin 11/12 and Forsberg 02/03 should in the conversation at least, even if minority opinion, maybe even Selanne/Datsyuk.
 
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quoipourquoi

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I think Peter Forsberg - had he played the full 82 games - would have the best season from a European player, considering just how fruitless teams’ offensive counterattacks were while he was on the ice (42 GA in 75 games; teams scored more against Sakic, 45 GA, in just 58 games). Credit it to teams being singularly focused on stopping Forsberg as opposed to trying to out-punch him offensively, but then it just makes the 116-per-82 pace even more impressive.

Not unexpectedly, teams scored 87 GA in 81 games while Jagr was on the ice, because he was on the ice a lot more. But the Penguins’ opponents also only scored 62 GA in 77 against Kovalev, so the devotion to shutting down Jagr may not have necessarily resulted in fewer offensive opportunities in the other direction.

Harder to get a gauge on the others. Fedorov was 71 GA in 82 games to Yzerman’s 62 GA in 58 games, but it’s probably better than it looks considering how much they overplayed him in Yzerman’s absence. Malkin’s 66 GA in 75 games doesn’t have a great comparison point with Crosby playing just 22 games.

Interesting, however, is the extent to which teams were not scoring while Ovechkin was on the ice in arguably his best year, 2010: just 44 GA in 72 games. I obviously wouldn’t suggest he’s anything in the same ballpark as Fedorov defensively - or even Forsberg, who was a great PKer for Colorado in his early years - but the extent to which he absorbed opponents’ attention and resources while so little happened against Washington is a statistic that caught me off-guard for that season. But it does seem to be more of a team-effect, as you look down the lineup - Morrison seeing 33 GA in 74 games. Kind of a tangent, but why on Earth did they not do something about their penalty kill?!

As for Selanne and Datsyuk, they would fare better in this had they not perfectly overlapped against Jagr and Ovechkin. 107 points in 75 games in the Dead Puck Era is nothing to scoff at, but if someone beats you out, you can’t have the best season overall.
 
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Dingo

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I also think Forsberg’s big season is in this ballpark. Stastny’s 139 pointer is a beauty, but a half step back. Pioneer points?

This thread made me make an account because I want to suggest that you hardcores do a ‘top 100 seasons of all time’ or top however many since ‘world war two’ or a time period where we can actually watch videos, and there was forward passing/semi-modern hockey.

Or whatever, Id love to see a project in that vein, please.
 

Batis

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I have them ranked Jagr 98/99 > Ovechkin 07/08 > Fedorov 93/94. I also do agree that Malkin 11/12 and Forsberg 02/03 are seasons that belong in this top tier of European seasons from forwards. Since the OP asked for the greatest European season from a forward and never specified that it was NHL only I would also nominate some pre-93/94 seasons as well considering that I find it highly unlikely that all of the five greatest European seasons would have happened in the last 25 years. To me it seems very likely that at least some of the top 60´s, 70´s and 80´s European forwards like Firsov, Kharlamov and Makarov etc would have a peak season that fits in this top tier. Considering that international play for the most part was considered the most important part of the season and that the domestic player of the year polls in the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia outside of domestic league performance to a large extent also took international play into account it makes comparing their seasons to great NHL-seasons somewhat problematic though.

One of the top candidates is probably Sergei Makarov´s 84/85 season. Internationally Makarov was voted the best forward at the 1985 WHC and was an all-star at both that WHC and the 1984 Canada Cup early on in the season. At the WHC he led the tournament in both points and goals and at the Canada Cup he led the tournament in goals per game and finished second in goalscoring despite playing two games less than the other top goalscorers. Makarov was also the top Soviet forward when it comes to shorthanded ice time at both the 1984 Canada Cup and the 1985 WHC. And based on the available footage from those two tournaments Makarov was not on the ice for a single powerplay goal against while scoring a shorthanded goal himself over the course of 17 minutes and 11 seconds of shorthanded ice time.

Domestically he won the scoring title in a dominating way (65 points to the runner-up Krutovs 53 points). Makarovs voting share in that years Soviet player of the year voting (0.871) was also one of the strongest in the awards history. While he had some even more statistically dominant seasons domestically (like 80/81 and 83/84) his 84/85 season is probably his strongest season all things considered. Not only was he dominant statistically both domestically and internationally but it also coincided with what very well may have been his absolute peak as a penalty killer. To me this is a season with a very strong case for being a top 5 or even a top 3 season from a European forward. I mean during this season Makarov was clearly the most offensively productive Soviet player both domestically and internationally at the same time as being clearly the most effective penalty killer on the national team.
 

Hockey Outsider

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This thread made me make an account because I want to suggest that you hardcores do a ‘top 100 seasons of all time’ or top however many since ‘world war two’ or a time period where we can actually watch videos, and there was forward passing/semi-modern hockey.

I agree, that would be a fun (but challenging) project. Maybe something to work towards in 2019 or 2020. The two biggest questions would probably be 1) do we accept multiple seasons per player (if so, the big four would probably take up 20-25 spots) and 2) would we just consider the regular season, or playoffs too (as that could significantly change the order).
 

Dingo

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I agree, that would be a fun (but challenging) project. Maybe something to work towards in 2019 or 2020. The two biggest questions would probably be 1) do we accept multiple seasons per player (if so, the big four would probably take up 20-25 spots) and 2) would we just consider the regular season, or playoffs too (as that could significantly change the order).
Those are good questions.
Myself, I would do a smaller list, and only use one season per player. But I know the guys on here enough to know they would love arguing Gretzky’s 4th best vs Mikita, or Hull or whatever.
Playoffs is tough. On one hand I feel that that is the only real hockey ever played. On the other I feel it is just simply unfair to guys on poorer teams. A regular season schedule is much more fair. You guys did best playoff performers (and I feel it is one of those things that needs to be looked at as a career due to sample size), my vote would be for just regular season.
 
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bobholly39

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I agree, that would be a fun (but challenging) project. Maybe something to work towards in 2019 or 2020. The two biggest questions would probably be 1) do we accept multiple seasons per player (if so, the big four would probably take up 20-25 spots) and 2) would we just consider the regular season, or playoffs too (as that could significantly change the order).

I love this idea - and to be honest I think we absolutely MUST do multiple season per players if we ever do it.

There's all these debates of Orr vs Lemieux vs Gretzky vs Howe....actually taking the time to do a big time project ranking each individual season might give us most accurate research ever in differentiating between top players. If we did single season - well we've all already had these discussions before. Whose peak is greater, etc
 
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bobholly39

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Those are good questions.
Myself, I would do a smaller list, and only use one season per player. But I know the guys on here enough to know they would love arguing Gretzky’s 4th best vs Mikita, or Hull or whatever.
Playoffs is tough. On one hand I feel that that is the only real hockey ever played. On the other I feel it is just simply unfair to guys on poorer teams. A regular season schedule is much more fair. You guys did best playoff performers (and I feel it is one of those things that needs to be looked at as a career due to sample size), my vote would be for just regular season.


Just regular season.

Talking about best regular season/payoff combo can be a fun topic here and there - but so few players are lucky enough to be on a contender who goes deep in the playoffs to have their playoffs peak coincide with their regular season peak.
 
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bobholly39

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Initially came back to this thread to post this - making this comparison of these 3 seasons has reminded me of how good Jagr was. His offensive peak is truly amazing, and I believe gets severely underrated at times.

I don't think he's in the ballpark of the big 4 for offensive peak - but I maintain what i've said for years. He might be #5 - both for height of peak, but also length, as he had a few fantastic seasons.

I look forward to our next ranking of all-time players, as I have a feeling i'll be very pro-Jagr when the time comes.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Initially came back to this thread to post this - making this comparison of these 3 seasons has reminded me of how good Jagr was. His offensive peak is truly amazing, and I believe gets severely underrated at times.

I don't think he's in the ballpark of the big 4 for offensive peak - but I maintain what i've said for years. He might be #5 - both for height of peak, but also length, as he had a few fantastic seasons.

I look forward to our next ranking of all-time players, as I have a feeling i'll be very pro-Jagr when the time comes.

Lafleur beats him because he did it for 6 straight years, AND maintained it in the playoffs winning cups and playoffs scoring titles in the process.
 

bobholly39

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Lafleur beats him because he did it for 6 straight years, AND maintained it in the playoffs winning cups and playoffs scoring titles in the process.

Lafleur is another one i've always held very high for peak. In fact if you asked me to name the 2 most likely candidate for 5th peak of all time - those are the 2 names i might have picked myself.

Lafleur definitely better in the playoffs so if that's part of your evaluation he of course beats him. But if you're talking strictly regular season - i'm not so sure. Would definitely be worth looking at more closely.
 

BenchBrawl

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Lafleur is another one i've always held very high for peak. In fact if you asked me to name the 2 most likely candidate for 5th peak of all time - those are the 2 names i might have picked myself.

Lafleur definitely better in the playoffs so if that's part of your evaluation he of course beats him. But if you're talking strictly regular season - i'm not so sure. Would definitely be worth looking at more closely.

They peaked at the same level in the RS, Jagr did it longer.Lafleur peaked both RS and playoffs simultaneously and equally.Take your pick.

Edit: Jagr scored 95 pts in 77 playoffs games between 1995 and 2001, which was his peak before the Washington years (I'm aware he had a great season in NYR, and other good ones, but I excluded this resurgence as it wasn't his real prime).

Lafleur scored 110 pts in 72 playoffs games between 1975 and 1980, which was his 6 years peak.In his era, nobody was even close.In that timeframe he led the playoffs in scoring 3 times, in goals 2 times and in assists 2 times.Four consecutive Stanley Cups.

Ignoring era adjustment (someone can do it if they want, I'm not up to it), this is a significant advantage for Lafleur.
 
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daver

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People seem to so often overlook this when comparing seasons to their peers. Jagr did see a ton of TOI and I think it definitely plays a role during his peak. But the 3 best seasons of Ovechkin/Malkin they also posted relatively high (not in what Jagr-land) TOI - hardly a coincidence there is a correlation between opportunity and offensive output.


PlayerTOI/GPRank among own seasonsRank total TOI vs fwd peersRank total TOI vs fwd peers SH excludedEdge vs top10 scorers (SH included)
Ovechkin 07/0823:061st2nd1st+11.0%
Malkin 07/0821:192nd8th6th+1.5%
Ovechkin 08/0923:002nd2nd3rd+9.1%
Malkin 08/0922:311st1st1st+11.1%
Ovechkin 09/1021:483rd34th14th-5.6%
Malkin 11/1221:013rd35th17th-5.2%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I was too lazy to deduct SH TOI when comparing to top10 scorers, so they almost certainly saw higher amount of offensive opportunity than the numbers above would suggest since they played relatively little on the PK.

Art Ross winners relative rank among forwards since 2005-lockout:

PlayerRank
Thornton 05/0610th
Crosby 06/0722nd
Ovechkin 07/082nd
Malkin 08/091st
Sedin 09/1023rd
Sedin 10/1140th
Malkin 11/1235th
St Louis 12/132nd
Crosby 13/141st
Benn 14/156th
Kane 15/162nd
McDavid 16/173rd
McDavid 17/183rd
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Beyond telepathic twins, really only Malkin sticks out among winners.

I think the fact that Jagr saw less icetime in 97/98 and in 99/00 (when he was even more dominant on a per game basis than 98/99) should temper this perspective. I see no reason to conclude that he only reached those numbers because of his icetime. Malkin's TOI, as noted later in your post, was not as big of an anomaly when SH icetime was removed and he was 2nd in PP icetime. One could point to his lower ES TOI as an indication of the confidence the coach had in him to play in all situations like a Forsberg or Fedorov.

Ironically, some will point to Malkin's league best pts/60 pace since 2012 as a reason why he is the best player.

I think Forsberg's TOI in 02/03 really sticks out. He was 49th in TOI among forwards, 23rd in ES TOI and 33rd in PP TOI. Does this mean we should move his offensive production up to a higher level? IMO, that is always a sketchy proposition but it can certainly serve to as a reason to differentiate himself from similar seasons offensively along with acknowledged defensive play and the amount of support a player got from linemates and teammates.
 

Midnight Judges

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I really don't see how anyone could think Jagr was better in 99 than Ovechkin was in '07-08.

Jagr had 39 secondary assists that year.

Ovechkin had 11.

So in terms of primary points (the ones that aren't arbitrary), Ovechkin had 101 points and Jagr had 88.

League wide scoring was almost identical in those years (2.75 goals per game in 98-99, 2.78 GPG in 07-08 - a 1% difference.

Ovechkin also had 65 goals to Jagr's 44. 2nd best on the Caps was Semin with 26. 2nd best on the Pens was Straka with 35. So Ovechkin had 39 more goals than the next guy on the team - which is pretty nuts. Jagr had 9 more than Straka.

Adjusted for era, Ovechkin's goal scoring that year was the 2nd greatest of all time - better than any goal scoring season by Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Mario Lemieux, etc. That is a legendary achievement.

I just don't see how anything Jagr did compares with that.

Ovechkin also had a better +/- (+28 vs +17). Despite Jagr's inferior +/-, his team had an overall goal differential that was better than the 07-08 Caps (+17 vs +11).

Ovechkin also had a substantially higher point share - which is illustrated through all of the above.

20 years from now, Ovechkin's season will still stand out. Jagr's season will - and already does - have several comparables from the same era (Sakic, Thornton, Malkin, etc.).
 
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billcook

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Even if secondary assists are arbitrary, proclaiming that "primary points" are not is arbitrary.


I agree with that season by Ovechkin was better than Jagr's.
 

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