OT: Sens Lounge LXXXVI | Poutine on the Ritz

[Busboy]

I dunno. There is something to be said for the ability to recall someone from office, even for reasons of public image.

Ford clearly goes above and beyond Trudeau (DUIs, crack, becoming caught in a criminal investigation on gang activities on top of smoking pot is a bit harsher than just smoking pot).

The DUI came before being elected. Crack and Pot are the same in the eyes of the law in Canada. I certainly understand the difference but I still don't think one time usage of a drug should be enough to remove someone from public office and any recourse needs to be consistent according to current laws. So saying one should lead to being removed from office and the other should not is motivated by ideology, and some would argue classism (the racist undertones associated with discussion of crack is very prevalent).

The criminal investigation never led to any charges and is the product of Rob Ford being extorted/blackmailed by a group of criminals.

I'm in no way defending Rob Ford or a supporter of his. But the reality is he showed up to work sober and put in more hours than most councillors. What happens in his personal life should not discredit what he does in his professional life unless there is clear evidence that it is prohibiting him from effectively carrying out the will of the voters. considering the fact he still had a shockingly high approval rate there's no basis for removing him from office within a democratic society. But that's my opinion and I recognize its an unpopular one. I simply think it's unpopular because of who Rob Ford was perceived to be before his alleged activity.

 

[Benjamin]

Putting aside the condescending characterization, I'm assuming you are in Lanark Frontenac then?

Kingston and Islands has been liberal since 1988.

Leeds and Grenville and Prince Edward-Hastings were both liberal from 1988-2004.

With the exception of Kingston they mirror national voting trends.

In this election Lanark and Kingston have been tweaked a bit... so it shall be interesting to see if the city hipsters or the rural rednecks prevail I guess for you.

Leeds and Grenville. It's 90% dumb rednecks. I say forever but its just been that since I've been there.

 

[Micklebot]

An ongoing process of course, but at present I can't help but feel my options are limited.. and may force me to vote for the Conservatives with reservations.

That debate was about what I expected, ear bleed inducing responses from all of them on various topics, and valid points by all of thrm on various topics.

The NDPs positions on economic and foreign policy appear ruinous for the country to me. Mulcair is clearly a man on intellect and substance, I'm just not convinced of the value of some of his admittedly well developed policy positions. At any rate, I think the NDP are the actual alternative option in ideology to the Conservatives , so I understand the support.

The Green Party is an intriguing 3rd party, starting to act as the conscience of Parliament, and while Elizabeth May is a an excellent debater, I have seen some erratic statements and behaviours that have started to become a pattern and turn me off.

I consider the Liberals to be Conservative-lite at this point, which I would actually find appealing. I appreciate many of their policy positions on foreign policy and economics as being more grounded in the "real world" than the NDP, but I remain convinced that Trudeau is a creation of his handlers, and doesn't have the intellectual heft to him of the other leaders. What Im struggling with is if I can accept thats he's just the popular front man and hope his team can keep things on track.

My major issue with the Conservatives is their environmental policy is terrible.

So let me get this right; you're torn between a (perceived) weak leader that is aiming towards policies you like, vs a strong leader with policies you don't?

One of the biggest problems I have with the Conservative party isn't about their policies, but rather about the way they go about things. Committees are held with expert witnesses brought in from across the country but the decisions have already been made, the MPs on the committees have their speaking points given to them by the party whips, and are under order to follow them. No matter what the experts recommend, since party line has already been decided, it has no effect. The whole point of the process is circumvented the way things are being done these days, and while I don't know if that will change with another gov't in place, I do know it's at the worst it's been in a long time, and the only way I can hold members accountable is by not supporting them come election time.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

The DUI came before being elected. Crack and Pot are the same in the eyes of the law in Canada. I certainly understand the difference but I still don't think one time usage of a drug should be enough to remove someone from public office and any recourse needs to be consistent according to current laws. So saying one should lead to being removed from office and the other should not is motivated by ideology, and some would argue classism (the racist undertones associated with discussion of crack is very prevalent).

The criminal investigation never led to any charges and is the product of Rob Ford being extorted/blackmailed by a group of criminals.

I'm in no way defending Rob Ford or a supporter of his. But the reality is he showed up to work sober and put in more hours than most councillors. What happens in his personal life should not discredit what he does in his professional life unless there is clear evidence that it is prohibiting him from effectively carrying out the will of the voters. considering the fact he still had a shockingly high approval rate there's no basis for removing him from office within a democratic society. But that's my opinion and I recognize its an unpopular one. I simply think it's unpopular because of who Rob Ford was perceived to be before his alleged activity.

I agree.

Besides, people would probably be shocked to learn how many politicians have a bad drinking habit and enjoy a dose of the white gold more often then they should.

 

[Busboy]

I agree.

Besides, people would probably be shocked to learn how many politicians have a bad drinking habit and enjoy a dose of the white gold more often then they should.

Yup. Every industry will have high functioning and very successful individuals with drug habits.

If Rob Ford was caught smoking crack in city hall then it would be a different story. But he was allegedly smoking crack in a... crack house! At 3AM or something like that.

Is it the type of behaviour I want to see from political leaders? Nope. Should it cost them their careers? Let the public decide when the next election rolls around, we live in a democratic society.

 

[The Lewler]

So let me get this right; you're torn between a (perceived) weak leader that is aiming towards policies you like, vs a strong leader with policies you don't?

One of the biggest problems I have with the Conservative party isn't about their policies, but rather about the way they go about things. Committees are held with expert witnesses brought in from across the country but the decisions have already been made, the MPs on the committees have their speaking points given to them by the party whips, and are under order to follow them. No matter what the experts recommend, since party line has already been decided, it has no effect. The whole point of the process is circumvented the way things are being done these days, and while I don't know if that will change with another gov't in place, I do know it's at the worst it's been in a long time, and the only way I can hold members accountable is by not supporting them come election time.

No that's not really 'right', it should be apparent it is not that simple.

With options as is, you are always left to pick and choose the least worst option.

For example, elements found in the Conservative platform that I feel are important would be things like:

-Trying to keep taxes as low as possible
-Strong foreign policy , support for Israel, military force against ISIS
-Immigration enforcement, attempts to clean up that broken system.
-Support for gun owners, with evidenced based laws instead of on a whim or on fear.
-Energy independence and development

Things found in conservative platform I don't care for:
-Environmental policies and record
-social conservatism positions on same sex marriage / abortion / marijuana.
-Union busting and 'race to the bottom' type arguments, while enriching the upper class.


So you look to different parties for options, and you see it's obviously a game of "which principle do you want to trade on" ?

 

[DylanSensFan]

Best antivirus anybody?

people are saying Panda... I used NOD32... I forget the company. It was pretty good. If you want free that pretty much takes care of everything go Malwarebytes.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Fantastic Four is JUST as bad as the reviews say it is. It could honestly be the worst superhero film ever. And that's including Batman & Robin and Catwoman...

A complete mess of a film.

This makes me a sad panda... why does Marvel keep doing this? Oh wait, it is fox...

 

[DylanSensFan]

I heard the director of the movie itself said his movie sucked because of FOX? Not sure if this is accurate. Didn't do any research on it. But yeah, didn't wanna waste my money on it. Kinda feel bad for this unknown cast they had. These guys were hoping for this to be their ticket into stardom.

Really can't wait for Star Wars.

Now you are talking.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Yup, I had similar feelings about the Rob Ford saga. The man was elected and it was already obvious he had substance abuse/behavioural issue. I voted in that election and I was as upset as anyone that Ford became mayor but you can't remove someone from office because you disagree with decisions in his personal lives, especially when his voters more or less knew about those issues before and after the election and didn't care. Trudeau got applause when he admitted to smoking weed while in office (obviously different from crack) and meanwhile the whole country was excited to pay a group of gangsters to extort a public politician so that they could parade him in front of his voters and say "see! We told you that you were all dumb idiots for voting him as mayor!"

Politics suck...

When we have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new Canadians in our country every year, it is easy to sway the vote. These people come from some countries where they are not even allowed to vote, much less be educated about the right to vote. The Temporary Foreign Worker program is a good example of how the federal government has been doing it, thanks to both the Liberals and the Conservatives. Somebody like Rob Ford kisses a Filipino baby and bam, he has 400,000 new constituents. Harper gives a reprieve on TFW being deported because their contract is up and all of the sudden he gets more votes. Funny thing now a days is... my sister who has lived in Canada for her entire life, yet has lived in Austria for 5 years has less of a right to vote than a political refugee who just obtained citizenship. I will be frank and clear here. Some of you might like the conservatives, but I do not. They have made a mockery of our democracy -- you want a reason to vote any other party but conservative this election? Two words: Larry Miller.

 

[Micklebot]

No that's not really 'right', it should be apparent it is not that simple.

With options as is, you are always left to pick and choose the least worst option.

For example, elements found in the Conservative platform that I feel are important would be things like:

-Trying to keep taxes as low as possible
-Strong foreign policy , support for Israel, military force against ISIS
-Immigration enforcement, attempts to clean up that broken system.
-Support for gun owners, with evidenced based laws instead of on a whim or on fear.
-Energy independence and development

Things found in conservative platform I don't care for:
-Environmental policies and record
-social conservatism positions on same sex marriage / abortion / marijuana.
-Union busting and 'race to the bottom' type arguments, while enriching the upper class.


So you look to different parties for options, and you see it's obviously a game of "which principle do you want to trade on" ?

Sure, but from the original post it seemed like you preferred the Liberal policies, on a whole, but it was the leader that made you hesitant. If you find each parties policies close to a wash, I can see this being a tiebreaker I guess but I think I just misinterpreted how you felt about the two parties.

Obviously no party is going to align perfectly with you, so it will always be a case of picking the closest fit.

 

[BonkTastic]

-Support for gun owners

Making it easier for Canadians to get guns is quite literally the last political issue I care about.

 

[Busboy]

When we have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new Canadians in our country every year, it is easy to sway the vote. These people come from some countries where they are not even allowed to vote, much less be educated about the right to vote. The Temporary Foreign Worker program is a good example of how the federal government has been doing it, thanks to both the Liberals and the Conservatives. Somebody like Rob Ford kisses a Filipino baby and bam, he has 400,000 new constituents. Harper gives a reprieve on TFW being deported because their contract is up and all of the sudden he gets more votes. Funny thing now a days is... my sister who has lived in Canada for her entire life, yet has lived in Austria for 5 years has less of a right to vote than a political refugee who just obtained citizenship. I will be frank and clear here. Some of you might like the conservatives, but I do not. They have made a mockery of our democracy -- you want a reason to vote any other party but conservative this election? Two words: Larry Miller.

I don't know how this relates to me or why you're responding to my post. The CPC ranks at the bottom of my preference for political parties and I did not vote for Rob Ford.

I think you're a bit off base about on your reasons for why Ford was elected too. The poor believed he was one of them (a man of the people), and the rich liked his plans to reduce taxes and services.

There's also the issue of amalgamated Toronto. Ford had almost no support in the city core. His supporters were suburbanites who felt their tax dollars were funding a city that they despise and avoid going to for anything but work. Suburbanites in GTA are anti-transit, anti-libraries, and anti-services because they never use them,mand this was everything Ford stood for.

 

[Busboy]

Making it easier for Canadians to get guns is quite literally the last political issue I care about.

Netflix tax!

Although I'm only half joking because I do care more about taxing my entertainment then pandering to gun owners and enthusiasts.

 

[DylanSensFan]

No that's not really 'right', it should be apparent it is not that simple.

With options as is, you are always left to pick and choose the least worst option.

For example, elements found in the Conservative platform that I feel are important would be things like:

-Trying to keep taxes as low as possible
This is a fallacy... in fact it is a fallacy in the US too. Reagan had a higher corporate tax than Clinton and since Clinton the corporate tax has not changed: It has been at 35% for years and years. Which is 20% higher than Canada. I do not see companies like Tesla having problems down there. Meanwhile we are made to fear a raise of 2% here in Alberta
-Strong foreign policy , support for Israel, military force against ISIS
Strong Foreign policy is not charging off to war. Canada should not be in Iraq. As Noam Chomsky and Libertarian Ron Paul have both said, leave the Muslims to fight their own fights and figure it out for themselves. They are goating us because they want us there. They want to kill Americans and Canadians as apart of their fake caliphate. Do not even get my started on Israel. I have family there. My cousin is married to an Israeli and she says the problem is Netanyahu and the far right. Netanyahu used racism in the last election in order to scare up the far right vote. You can look up Ron Paul and Chomsky to see what their views on Israel are.
-Immigration enforcement, attempts to clean up that broken system.
This right here is the biggest joke I've ever seen. You honestly believe that the Conservatives are enforcing any sort of immigration policy? Take a look at the oil patch in Alberta. Take a look at Husky Sunrise. There are camps full of Filipinos. In fact just down the road from me in Calgary there is a company called Mango cleaners and they have just put a sign up suggesting they can get people permanent residency here.
-Support for gun owners, with evidenced based laws instead of on a whim or on fear.
I am a gun owner, but this is a ridiculous reason to vote conservative. The main reason to vote for a party is to see how they can help society overall. As in creating incentive for job creation, new business, etc etc etc. Not gun control. I thought the long gun registry was a fallacy, but I agree regarding pistols
-Energy independence and development
We are at the beck and call of the US, all of our oil goes to them and then is refined and sent back to us as gasoline. Please tell me how it is possible with oil at $44/barrel USD why Canadian's are paying between $1.11 and $1.20/liter? Is that energy independence?

Things found in conservative platform I don't care for:
-Environmental policies and record
-social conservatism positions on same sex marriage / abortion / marijuana.
-Union busting and 'race to the bottom' type arguments, while enriching the upper class.
This is humane

So you look to different parties for options, and you see it's obviously a game of "which principle do you want to trade on" ?

I have answered in bold.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I don't know how this relates to me or why you're responding to my post. The CPC ranks at the bottom of my preference for political parties and I did not vote for Rob Ford.

I think you're a bit off base about on your reasons for why Ford was elected too. The poor believed he was one of them (a man of the people), and the rich liked his plans to reduce taxes and services.

There's also the issue of amalgamated Toronto. Ford had almost no support in the city core. His supporters were suburbanites who felt their tax dollars were funding a city that they despise and avoid going to for anything but work. Suburbanites in GTA are anti-transit, anti-libraries, and anti-services because they never use them,mand this was everything Ford stood for.

I was using hyperbole to create an example. It may or may not be necessarily true. It was more of a joke. The conclusion was not. I was not aiming at how you vote. I am just trying to educate the broader HF. I guess I am also sort of wearing my heart on my sleeve here.

 

[Benjamin]

I am a gun owner, but this is a ridiculous reason to vote conservative. The main reason to vote for a party is to see how they can help society overall. As in creating incentive for job creation, new business, etc etc etc. Not gun control. I thought the long gun registry was a fallacy, but I agree regarding pistols

This. Seriously. My dad is voting 100% based on the abortion views of the conservatives. No other reason. He's a moron.

 

[DylanSensFan]

This. Seriously. My dad is voting 100% based on the abortion views of the conservatives. No other reason. He's a moron.

You just cannot change some peoples minds... it has been too long for them. I did vote conservative in one election and now I see it as one of my biggest mistakes choice wise. As somebody who is a sculptor, and has a BFA. I need to look at the bigger picture. For me the bigger picture is growing the middle class. The middle class has the purchasing power. That is good for me, and it is good for business in general. The current policies are just not helping in that regard.

 

[The Lewler]

I have answered in bold.

"
-Trying to keep taxes as low as possible
This is a fallacy... in fact it is a fallacy in the US too. Reagan had a higher corporate tax than Clinton and since Clinton the corporate tax has not changed: It has been at 35% for years and years. Which is 20% higher than Canada. I do not see companies like Tesla having problems down there. Meanwhile we are made to fear a raise of 2% here in Alberta

It's not a fallacy. I simply stated keeping taxes as low as possible. What that level is was never defined. The premise that I want the least amount of taxes taken from me as possible is not logically inconsistent.

The only fallacy I see is positing that because the US corporate tax is at 35%, and Tesla and Apple are profitable, therefore Canada can raise corporate tax to 35%, no problem. Two different economies, two different regulatory structures, payroll taxes currency valuations, product sectors, etc etc.

-Strong foreign policy , support for Israel, military force against ISIS
Strong Foreign policy is not charging off to war. Canada should not be in Iraq. As Noam Chomsky and Libertarian Ron Paul have both said, leave the Muslims to fight their own fights and figure it out for themselves. They are goating us because they want us there. They want to kill Americans and Canadians as apart of their fake caliphate. Do not even get my started on Israel. I have family there. My cousin is married to an Israeli and she says the problem is Netanyahu and the far right. Netanyahu used racism in the last election in order to scare up the far right vote. You can look up Ron Paul and Chomsky to see what their views on Israel are.

Non-interventionist isolationism is a valid position to take. I just don't agree with it.
Libertarians may advocate a withdrawal from the world stage in favour of strong national sovereignty, with the caveat they will strongly defend their own nation and noone else. I get the position. I just don't agree with where they draw their line

What exactly is the "problem" with Israel? Other than they have a 'far right' government?

I believe Ron Paul has always been in favour of letting Israel do what it has to do.

My position is if belligerent non-democratic nation(s) want to wipe a democratic country off the map, that's a problem that has global ripples, and hurts Canada's interests.

.

-Immigration enforcement, attempts to clean up that broken system.
This right here is the biggest joke I've ever seen. You honestly believe that the Conservatives are enforcing any sort of immigration policy? Take a look at the oil patch in Alberta. Take a look at Husky Sunrise. There are camps full of Filipinos. In fact just down the road from me in Calgary there is a company called Mango cleaners and they have just put a sign up suggesting they can get people permanent residency here.

[I]Actually yes , yes I do. The system was massively broken prior to the Conservative's taking power, now it's just broken.

The temporary foreign worker program expansion and gong show can and should be laid squarely at the feet of the Conservative government.

What can also be attributed to them is a far greater removal rate of people found to be inadmissible, expansion of migration integrity offices to disrupt organised smuggling attempts before they hit Canadian soil, imposition of visas, biometrics (finally) on countries that were flooding our system with refugee claims that were overwhelmingly abandoned or denied, and other concrete steps taken to try and stop the abuse of the refugee system.

Is it fixed ? No.

Do the other parties have any plans to fix it? No.

This isn't some partisan slam fest, I don't care if they were called the Tennis Racket party. I care about the ideas whomever is espousing.

[/I]

-Support for gun owners, with evidenced based laws instead of on a whim or on fear.
I am a gun owner, but this is a ridiculous reason to vote conservative. The main reason to vote for a party is to see how they can help society overall. As in creating incentive for job creation, new business, etc etc etc. Not gun control. I thought the long gun registry was a fallacy, but I agree regarding pistols


You may claim it's a ridiculous reason, but it's a valid reason to consider voting for them if it affects you. Gun control programs that can not be shown to increase public safety do not make better society overall, and resources should not be devoted to them.

I sense an implied note that by saying support for gun owners means I support the farthest extremes of what that could possibly imply.

Licensing gun owners should be and is mandatory. Excellent.

Registering firearms has had zero demonstrable affect on firearms crimes , or public safety as a whole. Authority to Transport forms needed to move handguns from house to range or gunsmith? Zero evidence to support how this increases public safety.

RCMP banning legally owned and acquired firearms without being able to explain how they came to the determinations they did, other than the cosmetic looks of said firearms? Unacceptable. That's a power that should rest in elected officials.

The long gun registry is gone, and there has been no increase in long gun firearm crimes.

There is no reason to believe an elimination of the handgun registry would have any affect on gun crime rates either. However, that isn't on the table for discussion either at present.

These are all issues that were addressed by Conversatives, and for the better in my opinion.

USA style concealed carry and open carry is not happening, despite some hysterics from gun control circles.

I should be able to target shoot with my handgun in the vast acreage of my property just like I can target shoot , or shoot clays on my own property. I am responsible for safe use under the Criminal Code at all times already anyway for the other firearms.

Noone can provide a case as to why handguns should be limited to target shooting at a government approved range, other than to make it bothersome.

There is no evidence that increased gun control will stop the unlicensed, unregistered persons from committing firearms offences. So why bother bringing it up? Who is pandering to who?

Properly licensed people got some personal freedom back, and it is not detrimental to the public good.

-Energy independence and development
We are at the beck and call of the US, all of our oil goes to them and then is refined and sent back to us as gasoline. Please tell me how it is possible with oil at $44/barrel USD why Canadian's are paying between $1.11 and $1.20/liter? Is that energy independence?


So which parties alternative policy do you propose I consider?
Can you point to a country in the world that has energy independence than I can consider?
How would an increase in carbon/fuel taxes make that situation better?
Is it economically and environmentally possible to open up new refineries? If not, is the position that the government should nationalize the production of gasoline?
The cost of gas is (to me) linked to 3 things: #1. Taxes #2. Currency Strength #3. Collusion/Lack of Competition.
How do we get out of that situation?


Things found in conservative platform I don't care for:
-Environmental policies and record
-social conservatism positions on same sex marriage / abortion / marijuana.
-Union busting and 'race to the bottom' type arguments, while enriching the upper class.

This is humane

What is humane? All of those positions I seem to favour in regards to those issues, or busting unions and enriching the upper class is humane? I'm pretty sure it's the former based on the rest of your post, but just positing the query for clarity.

I'd say you more or less lectured me, which is fine in the marketplace of ideas.

I've added italics.

 

[DrEasy]

The DUI came before being elected. Crack and Pot are the same in the eyes of the law in Canada. I certainly understand the difference but I still don't think one time usage of a drug should be enough to remove someone from public office and any recourse needs to be consistent according to current laws. So saying one should lead to being removed from office and the other should not is motivated by ideology, and some would argue classism (the racist undertones associated with discussion of crack is very prevalent).

The criminal investigation never led to any charges and is the product of Rob Ford being extorted/blackmailed by a group of criminals.

I'm in no way defending Rob Ford or a supporter of his. But the reality is he showed up to work sober and put in more hours than most councillors. What happens in his personal life should not discredit what he does in his professional life unless there is clear evidence that it is prohibiting him from effectively carrying out the will of the voters. considering the fact he still had a shockingly high approval rate there's no basis for removing him from office within a democratic society. But that's my opinion and I recognize its an unpopular one. I simply think it's unpopular because of who Rob Ford was perceived to be before his alleged activity.

I thought I was the only person on the planet thinking like this. Very well put.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I have answered in bold.

Harper and the PCs are destroying this country. All they do is pander to Alberta and their black gold....which is quickly turning into fools gold.

Since the US started widespread fracking and Obama allowed more drilling in more areas, the US has become the biggest producer in the world. They no longer need our oil. And now the Middle East, with their monster supply, can dump their oil at any price and drive Alberta out of business (since it is massively expensive to get our crude out of the ground). So now we have a situation where our smaller oil companies are no longer profitable and are being bought by foreign interests. Heck, we are losing most of our natural resources to foreign buyers who are gobbling up so much of our land, it's crazy.

Tying most of our economy to Alberta might have saved us from the recession in 2008, but it's going to sink us in the very near future. We need to re-invest in the manufacturing sector and other energy sources before it's too late. But Harper won't do that, because all he cares about is the Alberta vote and his cronies out west.

And the environment....living an hour and a half east of Ottawa, right along the Ottawa River definitely gives one hell of a perspective of what we're doing to our country in that regard. In the last 20 years, the river has gone from a decent place to fish and occasionally swim, to toxic swill. And so much of the forests and countryside I spent years enjoying are disappearing. Not only logging, but abandonment of farms, cookie-cutter cheap disgusting housing, and just dumps.

And as a person without a university degree and working in a warehouse, I've been seeing my paycheck increases from year to year unable to cover the increases in the hydro bill...let alone the increases in food, rent, clothing, etc. The blue collar working class like myself are slowly drowning...and no one cares. It's all about tax breaks for the top half of the middle class and the upper class.

A couple of generations from now, we won't have any natural resources, or a blue collar/lower middle class. Just a bunch of folks at the poverty line....a huge gap and a small middle class and elites.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I'd say you more or less lectured me, which is fine in the marketplace of ideas.

I've added italics.

I am not going to go point for point here. Firstly regarding Israel. The country is not a democracy. When you have streets that Jews are allowed to walk on, but not Palestinians or Christians, who are both Israeli citizens, then that is not a democracy. That is what the civil rights movement was fought over in the US. We fought, specifically my Opa fought and liberated Bergen Belsun... one of the worst interment camps produced by the Nazi's during WWII. The Nazi's took Jewish properties and sold them, they murdered the Jews and yet if we look at Israel, their is no sense that they learned anything from that. In 1967 after the 6 day war, Israel occupied land that it did not own and still does not own. Right now it is illegally settling that land under the leadership of Netanyahu. That land is Palestinian and belongs to them. The land sold to Israel in 1944 is theirs, but otherwise they should give back the rest. You think only simply about this matter. In fact you've argued some facts about gun control that I actually agree with, but regarding Israel you seem quite ignorant. Netanyahu will not allow for peace or for Palestinian freedom. As much as you and I might dislike Hamas, they were democratically elected by the Palestinian people. They didn't just come to power, rather they were voted in. The Palestinians are made up of not only Muslims, but also Christians.

So what you are telling me is that it is okay for Netanyahu to bomb the hell out of Palestine. To kill thousands of innocents, including children and women, because a few Hamas missiles made it past the iron dome? The question really becomes, who fired first. Then the question becomes, who has the stronger military, the more technologically advanced weaponry and nukes. As Noam Chomsky said:

I concluded with the fact that some of what you stated was humane, because you were actually thinking about other people instead of just yourself.

Tell me... were you taxed higher under the Liberals? Did you even earn enough to be in a tax bracket that was higher? How much have the conservatives actually cut regarding taxes? Here in Alberta I know people who land in a tax bracket that means they will be taxed more under the new NDP government. The do not care, because they realizes it is a privilege to earn what the do. When you start earning over $200,000+ a year... then paying a little more in taxes, is actually giving the middle and lower classes a tax break. I also wonder what people think regarding owning a home, having sewage, electricity, roads, etc etc etc and then not wanting to pay the taxes for upkeep on all the infrastructure or the healthcare, or education.

Here is the reality of Harper's tax cuts:

According to figures supplied by the PBO, the top 20 per cent of income earners got $10.9 billion, or 36 per cent of the total, while the bottom 20 per cent got $1.9 billion, or only six per cent.

“That’s a huge amount and who has got that money? Most of that in dollar amounts has gone to upper-income Canadians,†said Howlett.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1356467/tax-cuts-since-2005-net-canadians-30b-pbo/

Back to Israel... Ron Paul wants to stop funding Israel and stop helping them policy wise. Paul wants them to go it alone.






Immigration is still massively broken. If you are stating that the abusive TFW program being used by corporations to drive down wages is not a problem pertaining to immigration, then you need to give your head a shake. This is basically making it legal to bring in people from various foreign countries who earn half as much as our trained trades people, who are less trained and less qualified, in order that these multi billion dollar corporations can siphon out a little more profit from our country and its resources. In a country like Germany, where they still manufacture, they would likely look upon our country and its economic policies as a joke. If you need evidence of the problems regarding the TFW program, take a look at Chinese owned Nexen who just spilled millions of litres of oil into the Northern Alberta wilderness, because their pipes were not fitted properly.

If you need more evidence of the problems being faced by blue collar Canadians have a look at Nac Mac Feegles post. This is the doing of the conservative government. Gun control is not a big enough thing for me to vote conservative ever again.


Sorry to everybody else... time to move this thread in a different direction.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Yeah I'd say this lounge hasn't been the most relaxing place these last few days.

Let's get some martinis goin' in here.

 

[BonkTastic]

Yeah I'd say this lounge hasn't been the most relaxing place these last few days.

Let's get some martinis goin' in here.

Yeah. I could go for a couple of stiff drinks right about now.

 

[Busboy]

Yeah. I could go for a couple of stiff drinks right about now.

Sunday morning cocktails? Now we're getting somewhere.