Post-Game Talk: Sens @ Bolts 11/10 | Goonies never say die

[Minister of Offence]

That's probably a good comparable. I have no issues with him being here if he keeps getting these minutes. I'd like to see him get some PP minutes parked in front of the net as well, but we already have too many right shooting guys fighting for PP time.

I'm not sure there's a ceiling on what he can work into but I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his way into that slot at some point. Better than Neil.

There's also the whole we don't want to give the 19 year old everything before we try and give the vets a shot.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Lol at people bashing Hoffman. He's probably the forward who has had the best chances so far. Knows where to go, can easily get there with his speed, and he has the shot to finish.

Let him settle in a little bit people...

It's like some people think this is his first stint in the NHL or something.

The hyperbole about Hoffman getting the best chances aside, we all know he's good at knowing where to position himself to get a shot in and is quite speedy. What we haven't seen is any kind of finish. Flashes of brilliance are just that, flashes. A lot of AHL players have skill, but there's always that barrier that they can't get through once they move up to the big league. Hoffman may well be exactly that kind of player: Stellar in the minors, mediocre in the NHL.

This isn't "bashing" or "hating", it's based on facts. He's played plenty of games in Ottawa before this season (26 to be exact), and it's been more of the same. He's turning 25 next month, so it's not like we're talking about a kid here.

 

[Super Cake]

Lazar is already one of MacLean's favourites. The kid earned a spot on the team despite not producing a lick of offense throughout the pre-season. I have to imagine that was because of his tremendous work ethic and attention to the defensive side of things, but where I disagree with you, and perhaps the organization (we'll see after the 9 game mark what constitutes "playing himself off the team"), is in regards to how well he'll develop his offensive game playing primarily defensive minutes with an offensive-anchor of a linemate in Neil, and to a lesser extent Zack Smith as well.



He played a much more significant offensive role for the World Junior team than he has played for the Sens thus far. He was taking key offensive draws and playing a lot of minutes on the powerplay as one of the snipers the more skilled forwards were looking to dish the puck to. I wouldn't be that opposed to Lazar up with the big club if he were playing those important offensive minutes for the team, but up till this point, he has not played on the powerplay and at 5 on 5 he's played in a defensive role.



I think with his goal scoring instincts and great shot he'll have no problem scoring goals at the NHL level, but like I have said before, I'd prefer if this kid spent more time working on his offensive skills so he could become more than a gritty garbage guy. All that is separating him from becoming a Mike Richards-esque player is his hands and passing ability. I want Lazar to become a 60+ point two-way beast, not the Glencross/Fisher type player I know he can become even if he's rushed into the league.

Where we disagree is I think Lazar's offensive skills could improve greatly if he goes back to junior and plays 25 minutes a game as the primary offensive weapon for the Oil Kings, as opposed to playing 10-15 minutes on the 3rd/4th lines playing as a defensive specialist getting minimal powerplay time. That to me seems more like common sense than anything. If the kid gets more time to practice deking out defensemen, making passes off the rush, etc... he'll develop into a better offensive player. I don't think playing the same role that Erik Condra has been playing the past few seasons is particularly conductive for offensive development.



If you watch guys like Bergeron or O'Reilly (the latter I watched extensively in his rookie season) you could tell they had the talent to be top 6 point producers in the NHL. They both had the same attention to detail in the defensive end that Lazar currently possesses, but both Bergeron and O'Reilly have always had very slick hands and great vision/playmaking ability. Lazar is more in the Fisher/Glencross type mold in that he's a grinder with goal scoring ability, but lacks the offensive skills to become anything more than a 50ish point forward.

Again, I think he stands a better chance of becoming a Bergeron/O'Reilly if he develops those offensive skills significantly, and the best way for him to do that would be to play 25+ minutes a game against his peers, not 10+ minutes a game against men trying his best to stick with the team by imitating Erik Condra.

I think you are putting way to put stock in Lazar improving his offensive skills in juniors.

How is he going to learn anything new by playing against vastly inferior players?

 

[WhiteLight*]

Lazar is already one of MacLean's favourites. The kid earned a spot on the team despite not producing a lick of offense throughout the pre-season. I have to imagine that was because of his tremendous work ethic and attention to the defensive side of things, but where I disagree with you, and perhaps the organization (we'll see after the 9 game mark what constitutes "playing himself off the team"), is in regards to how well he'll develop his offensive game playing primarily defensive minutes with an offensive-anchor of a linemate in Neil, and to a lesser extent Zack Smith as well.



He played a much more significant offensive role for the World Junior team than he has played for the Sens thus far. He was taking key offensive draws and playing a lot of minutes on the powerplay as one of the snipers the more skilled forwards were looking to dish the puck to. I wouldn't be that opposed to Lazar up with the big club if he were playing those important offensive minutes for the team, but up till this point, he has not played on the powerplay and at 5 on 5 he's played in a defensive role.



I think with his goal scoring instincts and great shot he'll have no problem scoring goals at the NHL level, but like I have said before, I'd prefer if this kid spent more time working on his offensive skills so he could become more than a gritty garbage guy. All that is separating him from becoming a Mike Richards-esque player is his hands and passing ability. I want Lazar to become a 60+ point two-way beast, not the Glencross/Fisher type player I know he can become even if he's rushed into the league.

Where we disagree is I think Lazar's offensive skills could improve greatly if he goes back to junior and plays 25 minutes a game as the primary offensive weapon for the Oil Kings, as opposed to playing 10-15 minutes on the 3rd/4th lines playing as a defensive specialist getting minimal powerplay time. That to me seems more like common sense than anything. If the kid gets more time to practice deking out defensemen, making passes off the rush, etc... he'll develop into a better offensive player. I don't think playing the same role that Erik Condra has been playing the past few seasons is particularly conductive for offensive development.



If you watch guys like Bergeron or O'Reilly (the latter I watched extensively in his rookie season) you could tell they had the talent to be top 6 point producers in the NHL. They both had the same attention to detail in the defensive end that Lazar currently possesses, but both Bergeron and O'Reilly have always had very slick hands and great vision/playmaking ability. Lazar is more in the Fisher/Glencross type mold in that he's a grinder with goal scoring ability, but lacks the offensive skills to become anything more than a 50ish point forward.

Again, I think he stands a better chance of becoming a Bergeron/O'Reilly if he develops those offensive skills significantly, and the best way for him to do that would be to play 25+ minutes a game against his peers, not 10+ minutes a game against men trying his best to stick with the team by imitating Erik Condra.

But he's never been a playmaker or had great vision at any level. What makes you think another year in junior will allow him to develop this? What makes you think that ability will translate to the NHL?

 

[Super Cake]

Lazar just does not belong in juniors. He belongs in the ahl at best. But since that can't happen, he should just stick with the team.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Just because I dangled some inferior kids at the odr doesn't change the fact that when I try and dangle good players I only get it sometimes.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Lazar is already one of MacLean's favourites. The kid earned a spot on the team despite not producing a lick of offense throughout the pre-season. I have to imagine that was because of his tremendous work ethic and attention to the defensive side of things, but where I disagree with you, and perhaps the organization (we'll see after the 9 game mark what constitutes "playing himself off the team"), is in regards to how well he'll develop his offensive game playing primarily defensive minutes with an offensive-anchor of a linemate in Neil, and to a lesser extent Zack Smith as well.



He played a much more significant offensive role for the World Junior team than he has played for the Sens thus far. He was taking key offensive draws and playing a lot of minutes on the powerplay as one of the snipers the more skilled forwards were looking to dish the puck to. I wouldn't be that opposed to Lazar up with the big club if he were playing those important offensive minutes for the team, but up till this point, he has not played on the powerplay and at 5 on 5 he's played in a defensive role.



I think with his goal scoring instincts and great shot he'll have no problem scoring goals at the NHL level, but like I have said before, I'd prefer if this kid spent more time working on his offensive skills so he could become more than a gritty garbage guy. All that is separating him from becoming a Mike Richards-esque player is his hands and passing ability. I want Lazar to become a 60+ point two-way beast, not the Glencross/Fisher type player I know he can become even if he's rushed into the league.

Where we disagree is I think Lazar's offensive skills could improve greatly if he goes back to junior and plays 25 minutes a game as the primary offensive weapon for the Oil Kings, as opposed to playing 10-15 minutes on the 3rd/4th lines playing as a defensive specialist getting minimal powerplay time. That to me seems more like common sense than anything. If the kid gets more time to practice deking out defensemen, making passes off the rush, etc... he'll develop into a better offensive player. I don't think playing the same role that Erik Condra has been playing the past few seasons is particularly conductive for offensive development.



If you watch guys like Bergeron or O'Reilly (the latter I watched extensively in his rookie season) you could tell they had the talent to be top 6 point producers in the NHL. They both had the same attention to detail in the defensive end that Lazar currently possesses, but both Bergeron and O'Reilly have always had very slick hands and great vision/playmaking ability. Lazar is more in the Fisher/Glencross type mold in that he's a grinder with goal scoring ability, but lacks the offensive skills to become anything more than a 50ish point forward.

Again, I think he stands a better chance of becoming a Bergeron/O'Reilly if he develops those offensive skills significantly, and the best way for him to do that would be to play 25+ minutes a game against his peers, not 10+ minutes a game against men trying his best to stick with the team by imitating Erik Condra.

Posted s long reply to this earlier. Not doing it again. Not now at least.

You think too highly of junior as a skill development league.

Lazar has smarts, that's what will separate him from the mike fisher category.

He's not destined for a career of 3rd line minutes.

You watched oreilly extensively? You've yet to have a chance to watch lazar extensively. Keep watching

But Ya Neil is an offensive anchor....so watch accordingly when he's in his first set of NHL games with a guy that isn't really an NHL player on the ice.

The game could get much more creative for lazar If he played with creative players. I still think he's the guy that goes to the net and does it simple on an offensive line. But lots of guys do that and score. They get the minutes because away from scoring opportunities (ie standing in front of the net and around it) they win battles and move the puck to good places even against top flight opponents. That's the kicker

 

[Cosmix]

With the way Boro and Phillips played I don't know if Cowen dresses when Methots back. Boro makes good passes, his outlet against Nashville to Mac that lead to the Turris goal was great. He takes a second delays and moves the puck its a treat to watch from a lefty on this team.

Boro is mean as hell and makes guys pay, perhaps he can play with Karlsson players may also be weary of taking liberties with EK if Boro is always on the ice with him. A second pairing of Methot Ceci is pretty good. That would give the sens a solid top 4.

Methot with Ceci is probably solid defensively with some offense from Ceci. The Borowiecki - Karlsson combo might be OK, but I want to see it for a quite a few games before saying it is solid. I would prefer a more offensive player with Karlsson.

 

[Micklebot]

Posted s long reply to this earlier. Not doing it again. Not now at least.

You think too highly of junior as a skill development league.

Lazar has smarts, that's what will separate him from the mike fisher category.

He's not destined for a career of 3rd line minutes.

You watched oreilly extensively? You've yet to have a chance to watch lazar extensively. Keep watching

But Ya Neil is an offensive anchor....so watch accordingly when he's in his first set of NHL games with a guy that isn't really an NHL player on the ice.

The game could get much more creative for lazar If he played with creative players. I still think he's the guy that goes to the net and does it simple on an offensive line. But lots of guys do that and score. They get the minutes because away from scoring opportunities (ie standing in front of the net and around it) they win battles and move the puck to good places even against top flight opponents. That's the kicker

Lazar reminds me of Couturier in his rookie year. If he can work his way up the lineup to the point that he's getting top 9 mins, I'm all for him sticking around. If he gets stuck with 4th line mins plus PK, I'd be happier with him playing 25 mins in the CHL.

I don't think either option is wrong, or worse for his development, just the way I see it.

 

[Sensinitis]

Borowiecki-Karlsson
Phillips-Ceci
Cowen-Methot

 

[Super Cake]

Lazar reminds me of Couturier in his rookie year. If he can work his way up the lineup to the point that he's getting top 9 mins, I'm all for him sticking around. If he gets stuck with 4th line mins plus PK, I'd be happier with him playing 25 mins in the CHL.

I don't think either option is wrong, or worse for his development, just the way I see it.

I wish we can make him a year older so he can play in the ahl. He would learn much more playing in the ahl than in juniors.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Boro on the first pairing?

X 1000000

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Ya if a guys ready to play he's ready to round his game out.

He's already proven he can make plays in junior, doing it more cuz he's older now doesn't do anything more for him then learning how to do it faster.

He's 19 and excelling in 3rd line minutes. He will be 22 in top 6 minutes at some point, and points will come.

Junior doesn't turn a 60 point guy into an 80 point guy. It turns a guy who would have gotten crushed in the NHL into the player he could potentially be though. It buys time and teaches fundamentals.

Curt need not of that.

I have no real opinion on whether Lazar should go back to junior this year or stick in the NHL. I'll leave that to the experts, who have shown themselves to be mostly good at deciding how to develop the Sens prospects.

But on the bolded and just to be very realistic -- Lazar's offensive output in junior does not project him to be a 60 point player. Could it happen? Sure, of course. Two other guys mentioned in this thread - Bergeron and O'Reilly - certainly exceeded their offensive projections.

But you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you think that is the "likely" offensive output for Lazar.

I'll be more than happy with a 50 point guy with very high compete and leadership skills.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Boro on the first pairing?

X 1000000

other options include Cowen, Phillips and Wiercioch right now


I think Boro is the best option...



until JC improves his play anyway

 

[Scrub*]

Our left D are horrible!!

 

[WhiteLight*]

Our left D are horrible!!

Ahhhhh the days of Redden Chara Phillips Volchenkov

 

[L'Aveuglette]

other options include Cowen, Phillips and Wiercioch right now


I think Boro is the best option...



until JC improves his play anyway

I prefer every option you listed.

Boro is not nearly good enough to play that much.

 

[WhiteLight*]

I prefer every option you listed.

Boro is not nearly good enough to play that much.

meh. Still early.

He looks fine/good.


Maybe he'd get expose with huge minutes, but we don't really know yet

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I don't think boro will ever be a top 2. He has impressed me with his puck skills though. He's not completely useless in that facet of the game.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Phillips had a good game

 

[Cosmix]

As a team we're still turning it over far too often instead of getting it out or transitioning.

Something that needs to be fixed for longterm success.

The Senators are missing defencemen who can carry the puck up the ice or out of the defensive zone. They only have one or two who can do it. The reat are too slow or poor puckhandlers or both.

Borowiecki-Karlsson
Phillips-Ceci
Cowen-Methot

I am glad to see Methot skated today, or is this a wish?

I think you are putting way to put stock in Lazar improving his offensive skills in juniors.

How is he going to learn anything new by playing against vastly inferior players?

I believe players develop their skills through continuous practice, not in games.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I prefer every option you listed.

Boro is not nearly good enough to play that much.

Boro doesnt have to be good to play with karl imo he just has to be a young volchenkov type players

 

[Minister of Offence]

Lazar reminds me of Couturier in his rookie year. If he can work his way up the lineup to the point that he's getting top 9 mins, I'm all for him sticking around. If he gets stuck with 4th line mins plus PK, I'd be happier with him playing 25 mins in the CHL.

I don't think either option is wrong, or worse for his development, just the way I see it.

At the moment sending him back would be worse for the hockey team right now.

He played quite a bit last night, it was his second game.

He's probably gonna get better faster than every other player on the team.

I feel like in 3 months there's gonna be a lot of people saying "oh all of a sudden he's showing offense - it came out of nowhere". I'll say that if it happens that way it was kinda predictable. He has ability that translates into offense

 

[Minister of Offence]

I have no real opinion on whether Lazar should go back to junior this year or stick in the NHL. I'll leave that to the experts, who have shown themselves to be mostly good at deciding how to develop the Sens prospects.

But on the bolded and just to be very realistic -- Lazar's offensive output in junior does not project him to be a 60 point player. Could it happen? Sure, of course. Two other guys mentioned in this thread - Bergeron and O'Reilly - certainly exceeded their offensive projections.

But you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you think that is the "likely" offensive output for Lazar.

I'll be more than happy with a 50 point guy with very high compete and leadership skills.

I've said a lot hell probably end up regularly in the 50-65 point range.

Junior production isn't somethig you want to rely too heavily on. That method goes wrong quite a bit and sometimes it's predictable.

 

[Laoghaire]

Boro on the first pairing?

X 1000000

Playing with Karlsson is pretty easy I imagine. Take in front of the net, support him on the boards and get the puck to him. A simple player like Boro, or more accurately a guy who knows his role and won't over-step (Cowen), might have an easy time.