Proposal: Senators glut of middle 6 forwards

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Yeah, the Stone, Hoffman and Karlsson trades were okay to you?

Hoffman was garbage, but SJ didn't get a great return either, relative to his on ice skill.

For one year of EK, who was clearly not going to sign here, it wasn't an awful return. Balcers has some good potential, as does Norris. Tierney has performed above expected and could be traded for a second +. Plus a first and a second. Plus Demelo who has been fine. You're never happy trading all stars, but there's a lot of potential in that trade.

For a guy who was free to leave in 3 months, getting a blue chipper is all we could hope for. Again, never happy trading stars, but the return was ok.

The Dzingel and Brassard sell offs were fantastic for us.

If Pageau is healthy all of next year and gets dealt, he's not going for less than the value of a second rounder.

 

[ottawa]

Jesus, you're in denial...check the trade threads on your own board for a reality check.

For a guy who was free to leave in 3 months, getting a blue chipper is all we could hope for. Again, never happy trading stars, but the return was ok.

You traded a signed Stone (the trade was made on the basis of a pre-negotiated deal as per reports)...a 7 year Stone is easily worth far more than what he actually got (again, see the trade thread on your own board if you disagree with me, it'll entertain you)

For one year of EK, who was clearly not going to sign here, it wasn't an awful return. Balcers has some good potential, as does Norris. Tierney has performed above expected and could be traded for a second +. Plus a first and a second. Plus Demelo who has been fine. You're never happy trading all stars, but there's a lot of potential in that trade.

Might I remind you that Karlsson is a generational defensemen (sens fans seem to forget that bit now that he's no longer a senator, hell a lot of sens fans are saying he is overrated too now).

Hoffman was garbage, but SJ didn't get a great return either, relative to his on ice skill.

Hoffman trade was just putrid, no need prop up Dorions return by using San Jose's return as a crutch. San Jose got an easy return on their investments literally within minutes by flipping him elsewhere. Sens could have easily cut the middle man here.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Jesus, you're in denial...check the trade threads on your own board for a reality check.



You traded a signed Stone (the trade was made on the basis of a pre-negotiated deal as per reports)...a 7 year Stone is easily worth far more than what he actually got (again, see the trade thread on your own board if you disagree with me, it'll entertain you)



Might I remind you that Karlsson is a generational defensemen (sens fans seem to forget that bit now that he's no longer a senator, hell a lot of sens fans are saying he is overrated too now).





Hoffman trade was just putrid, no need prop up Dorions return by using San Jose's return as a crutch. San Jose got an easy return on their investments literally within minutes by flipping him elsewhere. Sens could have easily cut the middle man here.

Am I happy with those returns? No. I'm never happy trading stars for pieces. Yes, we got duped on the Hoffman trade. Most sensible fans still love EK, you'll never be satisfied with that return, but there are some pieces there. Stone agreed to sign with Vegas, not us... We traded someone with 3 months left. We were lucky Stone agreed with Vegas, otherwise we'd have gotten a ton less. We got acceptable value given the circumstance here.

Dzingel just got us 2 seconds and Duclair who has been a huge hit so far. Zuccarello only returned a guaranteed second and third. Brassard just got traded with a 6th for a 3rd. We returned a good goaltending prospect, a 1st, and 3rd only a year ago.

Anyways, if you think your 4th Rd pick gets Pageau, you're in Dreamland... Regardless of who our GM is.

 

[ottawa]

Am I happy with those returns? No. I'm never happy trading stars for pieces. Yes, we got duped on the Hoffman trade. Most sensible fans still love EK, you'll never be satisfied with that return, but there are some pieces there. Stone agreed to sign with Vegas, not us... We traded someone with 3 months left. We were lucky Stone agreed with Vegas, otherwise we'd have gotten a ton less. We got acceptable value given the circumstance here.

Dzingel just got us 2 seconds and Duclair who has been a huge hit so far. Zuccarello only returned a guaranteed second and third. Brassard just got traded with a 6th for a 3rd. We returned a good goaltending prospect, a 1st, and 3rd only a year ago.

Anyways, if you think your 4th Rd pick gets Pageau, you're in Dreamland... Regardless of who our GM is.

Yeah, I guess Dorion is better at trading bottom/middle 6 players than he is at trading top liners so maybe he might get a better return on Pageau.

 

[Fourier]

I dunno..the flip side to your theory would be that he got to play with some good players early on (Stone) and it gave him confidence and experience going against opposing teams front line players. He and Brady are both still scoring post trade deadline, btw.

And then you could also say that hes actually going to get a great opportunity over the next few years in Ottawa. Hes going to get prime minutes, and a chance to play with some of the organizations most talented wingers like Tkachuk (already building great chemistry together) and Batherson. I'll compare it to Horvat in Vancouver's situation.

Until he takes a step back, like you seem to be implying that he will, Im going to assume that he keeps progressing forward.

At this point his 82 game pace would put him at 45 points. That's a very good rookie year even for a 21/22 year old. That is a far cry from being a consistent 60 point let alone adding a solid 2 way game. So I am not suggesting he will regress. My point was that the player you described would actually be a legitimate #1C or at least top 30 depending on how you define #1C. Maybe this changes with the new higher scoring NHL if this trend continues.

The Horvat reference is an interesting one. The two players are quite different. I know you were only comparing their situations rather than them as players but Horvat has a few things going for him that White will never have. In particular Horvat is a flat out bull. At ES he drives the play regardless of his wingers and his goal scoring helps him a lot. He also has a magician in Petersson to work with on the pp. White is more of a pass first playmaker to my eyes. This means he will need more help from his wingers and defense to put up numbers in the 60 point range, He's going to have to average nearly 40 assists per year which would agin put him in the top 20 or so range for centers.

 

[BurgoShark]

So back to the OP... the question was basically “which Senators roster of fringe roster players could they trade in the off season and actually get a useful return, excluding the young core?”

Pageau - no - keep until TDL at least
Tierney - no - keep until RFA
Duclair - give him a full year to prove himself
Smith, Boro, Ryan, Boedker - nope

Ceci is really the only veteran guy. Maybe Harpur or one of the younger fringe guys (e.g. Chlapik) could be moved too if they need to make room.

 

[Samsquanch]

At this point his 82 game pace would put him at 45 points. That's a very good rookie year even for a 21/22 year old. That is a far cry from being a consistent 60 point let alone adding a solid 2 way game. So I am not suggesting he will regress. My point was that the player you described would actually be a legitimate #1C or at least top 30 depending on how you define #1C. Maybe this changes with the new higher scoring NHL if this trend continues.

The Horvat reference is an interesting one. The two players are quite different. I know you were only comparing their situations rather than them as players but Horvat has a few things going for him that White will never have. In particular Horvat is a flat out bull. At ES he drives the play regardless of his wingers and his goal scoring helps him a lot. He also has a magician in Petersson to work with on the pp. White is more of a pass first playmaker to my eyes. This means he will need more help from his wingers and defense to put up numbers in the 60 point range, He's going to have to average nearly 40 assists per year which would agin put him in the top 20 or so range for centers.

Well FWIW, 39pts/67gp puts him at almost a 48pt pace (47.7).. But anyways yes I do agree that its very good rookie year for a guy who just turned 22 at the end of January. Lets not pretend like this is an old prospect here, he's basically right on track for development of a typical mid/late 1st round pick that played 2 years of college hockey.

Yes the Horvat reference was about their current situations, which are definitely similar, and I was not comparing their play styles at all. But lets go with that for a minute since you took it a bit further.

I agree with you that Horvat is likely a notch above White, but I really do feel like White is constantly undersold around here. Hes got all of the tools and pedigree to be a solid 50-60pt second line center. He was a teenage star in college (freshman year 43pts in 37gp +24) and at the WJC, twice (15pts in 14gp +10). Those are star numbers.

There is a reason why USA hockey just LOVES this kid, and its not apparent if all you do is watch the score sheets. Hes a coaches dream, and he plays the game in the same mold as a Patrice Bergeron, who doesnt need to be a Horvat sized bull to get the job done defensively.

But anyways, I think your taking the initial 60pt projection I put out there a wee bit too literal - so I will adjust that thought. I understand that he might not hit 60pts every single year. Yes thats a huge accomplishment for any center in this league, and would put him in some very elite company.

But I can see him at that number (or exceeding it) a few times during his prime years. And based on this first full season of his, as per my original post, I think we have a good chance of seeing that happening.