Management Senators and League Wide Revenue

[GCK]

Simple truth is that a better product should bring better revenues, if it doesn’t it won’t matter who the owner is.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Yes, we all have reason to dislike Melnyk. He's embarrassed the team and city. But it's irrelevant. He's here to stay. He bought the team fair and square and it's his to do what he likes.

Fans either support the team or don't. If they don't, the team's days are numbered. And that's what Eugene said at the winter classic and fans were morally outraged. But all he said was if fans don't fill the building, there will come a day that he finds a new city where fans do fill the building.

It happened with the Expos. Fans hated the owner, justifiably, and didn't go to games. Sure enough, the Expos left.

That's all my point is. Your hatred of Melnyk is justifiable but it doesn't accomplish anything. And not going to games only weakens the payroll and increases the chances the organization leaves.

 

[Sweatred]

Yes, we all have reason to dislike Melnyk. He's embarrassed the team and city. But it's irrelevant. He's here to stay. He bought the team fair and square and it's his to do what he likes.

Fans either support the team or don't. If they don't, the team's days are numbered. And that's what Eugene said at the winter classic and fans were morally outraged. But all he said was if fans don't fill the building, there will come a day that he finds a new city where fans do fill the building.

It happened with the Expos. Fans hated the owner, justifiably, and didn't go to games. Sure enough, the Expos left.

That's all my point is. Your hatred of Melnyk is justifiable but it doesn't accomplish anything. And not going to games only weakens the payroll and increases the chances the organization leaves.

Well said.

 

[Spartachat]

Yes, we all have reason to dislike Melnyk. He's embarrassed the team and city. But it's irrelevant. He's here to stay. He bought the team fair and square and it's his to do what he likes.

Fans either support the team or don't. If they don't, the team's days are numbered. And that's what Eugene said at the winter classic and fans were morally outraged. But all he said was if fans don't fill the building, there will come a day that he finds a new city where fans do fill the building.

It happened with the Expos. Fans hated the owner, justifiably, and didn't go to games. Sure enough, the Expos left.

That's all my point is. Your hatred of Melnyk is justifiable but it doesn't accomplish anything. And not going to games only weakens the payroll and increases the chances the organization leaves.

You do know the NHL would have to approve a move and would likely charge a hefty fee as well. Do you think Melnyk would have much better luck in Kansas City? A lot of American teams are losing money. The NHL would most likely make him exhaust all other options, such as trying to sell the team, before they would approve a move.

 

[PatrickEaves]

Yes, we all have reason to dislike Melnyk. He's embarrassed the team and city. But it's irrelevant. He's here to stay. He bought the team fair and square and it's his to do what he likes.

Fans either support the team or don't. If they don't, the team's days are numbered. And that's what Eugene said at the winter classic and fans were morally outraged. But all he said was if fans don't fill the building, there will come a day that he finds a new city where fans do fill the building.

It happened with the Expos. Fans hated the owner, justifiably, and didn't go to games. Sure enough, the Expos left.

That's all my point is. Your hatred of Melnyk is justifiable but it doesn't accomplish anything. And not going to games only weakens the payroll and increases the chances the organization leaves.

Question: Why are people obligated to financially support someone they don't like?

 

[Sweatred]

Also on a personal level (since it seems super important that everyone has spent as much as you see fit before they can complain), I’ve spent a fortune on this team over 25 years, and as stated before Menlyk is the only reason I canceled my tickets last year, which I’ve had since the team came back to Ottawa.
He’s a terrible owner, and worse person.

I’m skipping over a bunch of your points - the cap spending is all on cap friendly - all teams have a variance between cap and money out etc. Cleary we’ve been very frugal lately.

I respect anyone who’s been buying tickets and stepped back recently -

 

[Wondercarrot]

I’m skipping over a bunch of your points - the cap spending is all on cap friendly - all teams have a variance between cap and money out etc. Cleary we’ve been very frugal lately.

I respect anyone who’s been buying tickets and stepped back recently -

Yes there is a variance with all teams, cap friendly is where I pulled the info, and I’m pointing out that no team has had a greater variance than Ottawa, by a massive margin. You keep stressing cap hit in specific years and that’s not anywhere near the actual money being spent, which is what counts.

 

[Sweatred]

Yes there is a variance with all teams, cap friendly is where I pulled the info, and I’m pointing out that no team has had a greater variance than Ottawa, by a massive margin. You keep stressing cap hit in specific years and that’s not anywhere near the actual money being spent, which is what counts.

Yes . I understand that. We need to recognize that post 2018 the Sens started a full tear down with a surgical type precession to limit negative value and cap negative contacts going forward (White was about as risky as they would go).

what they’ve done is ensured they don’t have to pay an useless 32 year old MD and EK $18 million while trying to find money to extend Brady, Norris, Brannstrom , or who ever emerges.

 

[JD1]

I never said I wanted us to be Montreal. On any level. Why do you keep bringing them up? Nor did I say I wanted him to lose $15M a year, although that's actually pretty realistic for NHL ownership.

I'd like him to spend somewhere in the same range as Colorado, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. Those are our comparable teams based on revenue. Melnyk doesn't do that. And the on ice product is reflecting that. Which, along with Eugene's general asshattery, is making fans leery of shelling money for tickets/merchandise. Which reduces revenue. Which causes Melnyk to reduce costs. Which reduces on ice capabilities. Which reduces fan interest. Which reduces...well you can take it from there.

Where we end is a cesspool of fan/owner toxicity. The buck stops with the owner. Period. If it takes a couple of years of losing money then he better do it or lose more money in the long run.

You know Winnipeg is financially backed by Canada's wealthiest individual right? And by far the wealthiest owner in the NHL.

In 18 19, both teams had the same revenue according to Forbes. But the difference in revenue sources is quite interesting. Winnipeg generated 20M more gate revenue. think about that. It's a much smaller city with lower incomes than this city.

If Ottawa generated the same gate revenue of the next lowest Canadian team, things would be different i presume.

 

[Sweatred]

You know Winnipeg is financially backed by Canada's wealthiest individual right? And by far the wealthiest owner in the NHL.

In 18 19, both teams had the same revenue according to Forbes. But the difference in revenue sources is quite interesting. Winnipeg generated 20M more gate revenue. think about that. It's a much smaller city with lower incomes than this city.

If Ottawa generated the same gate revenue of the next lowest Canadian team, things would be different i presume.

Ottawa is full of fans that are too tired or too busy to go to a game ... it’s like one big version of “basic income” for the NHL.... as it is with life ... the mouths that spend the least want the most.

 

[JD1]

Yes there is a variance with all teams, cap friendly is where I pulled the info, and I’m pointing out that no team has had a greater variance than Ottawa, by a massive margin. You keep stressing cap hit in specific years and that’s not anywhere near the actual money being spent, which is what counts.

In fairness, that's only been the story of the past couple of seasons and they were pretty open about tearing it down and building it back up. The cap games / ltir followed the tear down, financially motivated or not. If that situation persists moving forward it's pretty valid, but not so much the past 2 years and this one coming. By 2021 22 we should be seeing upward movements in payroll to pay to keep the young guys. If the attendance and revenues and spending commitments aren't there in 2021 22 it's going to get really ugly.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I am interested in how much revenue this team has vs how much they spend. Somewhere in there is a number that would provide some insight about how much revenue our owner spends relative to other teams. For example in 2018-19 he had around $125 of revenue and spent around $75 on salaries. The Canadian spent around $78 and had $235. I don’t know how debt, his own decisions, levies etc impact those numbers but I would like too.

For example, it may be possible that our owner spends (top 5-10) the highest proportion of revenue on team salaries. Maybe he doesn’t? But there is more to it than the Sens 2019-20 tear down payroll and 15 stale Scrooge comments a day.

This is a really good point. This is what it all boils down to; How much the owner spends on team payroll in relation to total revenue.

I would think Ottawa has one of the lowest revenue streams in the league: low ticket prices, low attendance, low merchandise sales etc. And fans don't understand why Melnyk can't afford to give 11M to Karlsson for the next eight years.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Fair enough ... I understand that the issues annoy people and limit attendance. I also know we will have attendance issues in the future when these issues go away - so somewhere in there are a combination of real issues and useless excuses. There isn’t really any point to try to split those hairs. I don’t like EM, I know people who worked for him - I get it.

Let’s say we found out that EM spends the 6th highest percentage of available revenue on team salaries in the league? How would that influence your view of how cheap he is ? Let’s say the Rangers spend the least amount of revenue on team salaries ? How generous does they make them look ? There are lots of ways of looking at this other than dollars below the cap.

That's probably part of why we don't see the same path forward in your first paragraph. I don't think those issues ever go away under Melnyk. Even if he were capable of some personal reflection, humility and letting his employees do their jobs, I just think the ship has sailed for him in Ottawa. There are former fans, businesses, and corporate support that will only be back if he's gone, if not they will permanently move on with their lives to other things, simple as that. I believe the media will never write another good article about him and continue to paint the Senators in a light that handicaps them. So much blame gets put on the fans, but lets not forget who really made the guy a villain to North America, the media did. Essentially, I believe that under Melnyk, even if he started doing things right, the franchise will always be hamstrung by the damage already done and he does not have the opportunity to get back enough of what he's lost. The only way to truly change the situation and give the franchise the proper opportunity to rebuild its foothold in Ottawa is with a new owner.

Phrased in the way you put it, I would be fine with it. Honestly, I worry the least about his "cheapness" as I do about everything else. To me, the franchise is in this situation because of his handling of it, not because of how much money they spent.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yes . I understand that. We need to recognize that post 2018 the Sens started a full tear down with a surgical type precession to limit negative value and cap negative contacts going forward (White was about as risky as they would go).

what they’ve done is ensured they don’t have to pay an useless 32 year old MD and EK $18 million while trying to find money to extend Brady, Norris, Brannstrom , or who ever emerges.

You are right that in hindsight the rebuild looks like the best and only route given finances, especially with covid now, but that is a big time moment of epic failure at a time he was already so fragile with the fanbase and media. They were absolutely grilled for their handling and the timeline on it all. Granted a lot of that was on Dorion and Rutkowski, not Melnyk, but who got the blame right, the figurehead everyone hates and the media paints as the villain.

They had a golden opportunity to try to get fans on their side, but instead they felt the need to put a blanket over everything and just keep saying they were confident about signing everyone and hosting town halls to communicate that message and talk about it instead of going full bore with the rebuild and the "realities" that come along with it. I don't think that is a small thing in itself and did a ton of damage. Fans were upset that they were reassured right up until the bottom fell out and they were painted as liars once again. The rumored offers all coming out with hometown discounts and concessions on things being offered elsewhere like trade protection and the players taking backhanded shots on their way out just made it all so much worse, since nobody seriously believed they were genuine. If they'd come out and faced it all, I think they wouldn't have faced nearly the revolt they did, but instead everyone looked at it like more of the same coming from Melnyk and the Senators.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don't know how to computer apparently, Delete

 

[JD1]

This is a really good point. This is what it all boils down to; How much the owner spends on team payroll in relation to total revenue.

I would think Ottawa has one of the lowest revenue streams in the league: low ticket prices, low attendance, low merchandise sales etc. And fans don't understand why Melnyk can't afford to give 11M to Karlsson for the next eight years.

Between cap friendly and forbes you can sort that out

 

[Sweatred]

Between cap friendly and forbes you can sort that out

In 2017-18 I see the Sens earning about $125 and spending about $75 or 60% of the revenue on salaries.

I only glanced at the data (it goes behind a paywall) but it looked like the Sens salary spending/revenue was one of the top 6-10 highest in the league.

There are 20+ other teams who pocket a lot more money than our owner and spend less available revenue than he does.

 

[JD1]

In 2017-18 I see the Sens earning about $125 and spending about $75 or 60% of the revenue on salaries.

I only glanced at the data (it goes behind a paywall) but it looked like the Sens salary spending/revenue was one of the top 6-10 highest in the league.

There are 20+ other teams who pocket a lot more money than our owner and spend less available revenue than he does.

You don't need to go behind a paywall.... it's all public facing, it'd just take a bit of work. Couole of hours to do the entire league

But do yourself a favour....if you do the work, back out the LTIR data or the boys will justifiably crucify you

 

[Sweatred]

You don't need to go behind a paywall.... it's all public facing, it'd just take a bit of work. Couole of hours to do the entire league

But do yourself a favour....if you do the work, back out the LTIR data or the boys will justifiably crucify you

I understand the implications , but I don’t think there is any value is assessing (beyond curiosity) the 2019-20 season. That was an epic finical tear down and the EM hatred probably peaked in the summer of 2019. The sentiment that he was cheap mostly stems from how he treated Alfy, EK, MS, MD, RD etc. (And employees)

In the meantime our crappy owner spends toward the upper 25% of teams available revenue in the league on player salaries. There are not many owners making less, who spend more.

It’s not realistic to expect much more spending without an increase in revenue.

 

[Sweatred]

Question: Why are people obligated to financially support someone they don't like?

They aren’t. However, if these fans wants to complain about spending they should look in the mirror realize that “Sens fans” contribute some of the leagues lowest revenues. An easy solution to increase spending would be to increase revenue.

 

[Spartachat]

This thread feels like the Yelp review page of a restaurant with stunning reviews, but with food that tastes like cardboard.

 

[The Grey Wizard]

In 2017-18 I see the Sens earning about $125 and spending about $75 or 60% of the revenue on salaries.

I only glanced at the data (it goes behind a paywall) but it looked like the Sens salary spending/revenue was one of the top 6-10 highest in the league.

There are 20+ other teams who pocket a lot more money than our owner and spend less available revenue than he does.

This argument is flawed tho. no matter how much money the big team make they can’t spend more than the cap, even if they wanted to spend 60% of 500m. It works they other around too, the sens can’t spend less than the cap floor forcing them to spend more rate off of their revenue.

 

[Sweatred]

This argument is flawed tho. no matter how much money the big team make they can’t spend more than the cap, even if they wanted to spend 60% of 500m. It works they other around too, the sens can’t spend less than the cap floor forcing them to spend more rate off of their revenue.

Whats flawed ? The Sens are directing a greater percentage of their revenue to player salaries than other clubs ... at the very least the should deserve some push back for that against all the Cheepo/Scrooge chatter. They are literally stringing things together. They take a lot of abuse here for cutting player salaries , operating costs , management fees etc.

If Sens fans want to see more revenue go to salaries they should provide more revenue to the club.

If the Sens had $145 million of revenue and held payroll I’d call them cheap.

 

[Micklebot]

Between cap friendly and forbes you can sort that out

Forbes actaully has an estimate of player salaries that includes benefits. They may already be pulling out insured portions, but idk for sure.

 

[DaveMatthew]

You know Winnipeg is financially backed by Canada's wealthiest individual right? And by far the wealthiest owner in the NHL.

In 18 19, both teams had the same revenue according to Forbes. But the difference in revenue sources is quite interesting. Winnipeg generated 20M more gate revenue. think about that. It's a much smaller city with lower incomes than this city.

If Ottawa generated the same gate revenue of the next lowest Canadian team, things would be different i presume.

In 18-19, Winnipeg put up 99 points and was a top contender for the Cup.
In 18-19, Ottawa finished with 64 points and was 8 points worse than any other team.

The two situations are not even close to the same.

I know it's hard for some on this board to grasp, but the majority of people in Ottawa do not care that much about the Senators. They are not die-hards, nor should they be. People have lives, responsibilities, and limited time and income. THAT'S TRUE IN EVERY SINGLE MARKET.

No one, in any given city, is obligated to support a professional sports team.

It's for-profit entertainment business. Not life and death. Not a civic duty.

People will go to games when it's fun to go to games. It's fun to go to games when the team has a chance to win and is entertaining. Until then, keep calling people "bad fans".

If you divorce yourself from the situation, it's actually quite amazing. Billionaire owners have managed to convince a subset of regular, working class people to criticize each other for not giving them more money.