Management Senators and League Wide Revenue

[Sweatred]

Statista and Forbes have high ends teams like the Rangers bringing in over $250 million US in revenue a year (2018-19).

Forbes Releases 20th Annual List of NHL Team Valuations

The Sens apparently receive about $125 million in combined revenues and in 2018. The Sens may have had a $3 million profit according to Statista in 2018 (paywall/graph is 2018).

NHL teams operating profit | Statista

Toronto, MTL are around $225 million, even VAN is around $168 million in 2018. That year EM spent $74 of the CAP. How much more do we think he should spend based off a $125 revenue stream. I'd be curious to see what the 2019-20 numbers look like. Looking for more data.

MTL spent a few million more last year than our 2018 season on nearly double the revenue.

Click to read more...

 

[dumbdick]

I don't generally trust these numbers but i believe the following to be true:

- On the whole, Melnyk doesn't lose money on the sens. Businessmen don't hang on to bad assets if they can avoid it and he would expect a certain return on his investment.

- Melnyk would invest more in player salaries if he thought it would make him more money. The fact that he doesn't probably says it isn't worth the investment.

- The fundamentals of this business wouldn't be dramatically different under another owner.

- I think the recent fate of the sens is due to the following, in order: (1) losing team; (2) competition from redblacks; (3) the "circus".


I don't know if I'd trust it, but it would be interesting to see the difference between team revenues at the bottom of the standings vs after they climb up. That would be kind of like the ROI on investing in your roster.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I don’t care what he does anymore I’m just waiting for him to sell the team. I’ve been done with him since he threatened to relocate the team at the Winter Classic, that was unforgivable for me. I never asked him to spend more than he was able to, all I wanted was for him to run the team like the other budget teams were run and stay out of hockey operations and not embarrass the franchise with scandals.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Statista and Forbes have high ends teams like the Rangers bringing in over $250 million US in revenue a year (2018-19).

Forbes Releases 20th Annual List of NHL Team Valuations

The Sens apparently receive about $125 million in combined revenues and in 2018. The Sens may have had a $3 million profit according to Statista in 2018 (paywall/graph is 2018).

NHL teams operating profit | Statista

Toronto, MTL are around $225 million, even VAN is around $168 million in 2018. That year EM spent $74 of the CAP. How much more do we think he should spend based off a $125 revenue stream. I'd be curious to see what the 2019-20 numbers look like. Looking for more data.

MTL spent a few million more last year than our 2018 season on nearly double the revenue.

Why are you comparing the Ottawa Senators to the Montreal Canadians?? LOL. Based on one year where he had a cap hit (not necessarily actual spending)?

The habs are a top 5 biggest hockey market in the NHL. Based on value and income we are close to Colorado, Nashville, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. How about we compare expenditures across the board over the last 5 season to those teams?

Spoiler alert: It won't reflect well on Eugene Melnyk.

And while we're at it we can compare on ice performance.

Spoiler alert 2.0: Outside of Buffalo it doesn't look too good either.

 

[Sweatred]

Why are you comparing the Ottawa Senators to the Montreal Canadians?? LOL. Based on one year where he had a cap hit (not necessarily actual spending)?

The habs are a top 5 biggest hockey market in the NHL. Based on value and income we are close to Colorado, Nashville, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. How about we compare expenditures across the board over the last 5 season to those teams?

Spoiler alert: It won't reflect well on Eugene Melnyk.

And while we're at it we can compare on ice performance.

Spoiler alert 2.0: Outside of Buffalo it doesn't look too good either.

For the most part last season isn’t representative of his spending history. The best data that I can find shows him making about $3 million a year - I’m not sure how that deals with debt payments or a new $5 million score board.

He’s not an owner that is going to willingly loose $15 million a year.... is that what you want him to be ?

The habs are pocketing over $100 million a year more than Ottawa and their community provides them with $125 more than ours.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

For the most part last season isn’t representative of his spending history. The best data that I can find shows him making about $3 million a year - I’m not sure how that deals with debt payments or a new $5 million score board.

He’s not an owner that is going to willingly loose $15 million a year.... is that what you want him to be ?

The habs are pocketing over $100 million a year more than Ottawa and their community provides them with $125 more than ours.

I never said I wanted us to be Montreal. On any level. Why do you keep bringing them up? Nor did I say I wanted him to lose $15M a year, although that's actually pretty realistic for NHL ownership.

I'd like him to spend somewhere in the same range as Colorado, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. Those are our comparable teams based on revenue. Melnyk doesn't do that. And the on ice product is reflecting that. Which, along with Eugene's general asshattery, is making fans leery of shelling money for tickets/merchandise. Which reduces revenue. Which causes Melnyk to reduce costs. Which reduces on ice capabilities. Which reduces fan interest. Which reduces...well you can take it from there.

Where we end is a cesspool of fan/owner toxicity. The buck stops with the owner. Period. If it takes a couple of years of losing money then he better do it or lose more money in the long run.

 

[Sweatred]

I never said I wanted us to be Montreal. On any level. Why do you keep bringing them up? Nor did I say I wanted him to lose $15M a year, although that's actually pretty realistic for NHL ownership.

I'd like him to spend somewhere in the same range as Colorado, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. Those are our comparable teams based on revenue. Melnyk doesn't do that. And the on ice product is reflecting that. Which, along with Eugene's general asshattery, is making fans leery of shelling money for tickets/merchandise. Which reduces revenue. Which causes Melnyk to reduce costs. Which reduces on ice capabilities. Which reduces fan interest. Which reduces...well you can take it from there.

Where we end is a cesspool of fan/owner toxicity. The buck stops with the owner. Period. If it takes a couple of years of losing money then he better do it or lose more money in the long run.

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion with you when you start every posts with a FFS or insulting GIF...

Let’s move on .. your right. Fans are great, owner sucks.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion with you when you start every posts with a FFS or insulting GIF...

Let’s move on .. your right. Fans are great, owner sucks.

What is your goal here though?

People have told you how they feel and you aren't interested or tell them they're wrong, so what then. Are you trying to change minds? Are you open to having yours changed?

 

[jhutter]

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion with you when you start every posts with a FFS or insulting GIF...

Let’s move on .. your right. Fans are great, owner sucks.

There's exactly one team in the NHL that could maintain high attendance after experiencing what has happened in Ottawa over the last few years. Are the fans of those other 30 teams "bad fans"? Are "good fans" simply fools who continue to pay money for a godawful product?

What happened to Ottawa's fans that caused the team to go from one of the best attended clubs to the worst? Was it some kind of psychological aberration, or was it ownership-induced malaise?

I'm not sure if you're just being argumentative for the sake of it, but you're in such an extreme minority that I don't believe you're coming from a place of good faith.

 

[Sweatred]

What is your goal here though?

People have told you how they feel and you aren't interested or tell them they're wrong, so what then. Are you trying to change minds? Are you open to having yours changed?

Happy to discuss the issue - I just don’t feel like weeding through all the FFS. There is lots of community knowledge on revenue related to the team. It’s a relative unknown.

 

[Leafmealone11]

I never said I wanted us to be Montreal. On any level. Why do you keep bringing them up? Nor did I say I wanted him to lose $15M a year, although that's actually pretty realistic for NHL ownership.

I'd like him to spend somewhere in the same range as Colorado, Tampa, Carolina, Buffalo and Winnipeg. Those are our comparable teams based on revenue. Melnyk doesn't do that. And the on ice product is reflecting that. Which, along with Eugene's general asshattery, is making fans leery of shelling money for tickets/merchandise. Which reduces revenue. Which causes Melnyk to reduce costs. Which reduces on ice capabilities. Which reduces fan interest. Which reduces...well you can take it from there.

Where we end is a cesspool of fan/owner toxicity. The buck stops with the owner. Period. If it takes a couple of years of losing money then he better do it or lose more money in the long run.

Tampa makes 10+ million more Colorado makes around the same but has no debt so the sens are spending about where they should be spending.
He has been loosing money for years on end, you demanding someone “better lose money” is a joke

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Happy to discuss the issue - I just don’t feel like weeding through all the FFS. There is lots of community knowledge on revenue related to the team. It’s a relative unknown.

I guess you are willing to discuss financials, but that's the divide, you're being told it was beyond that and it was before the time you feel it was and that increasing revenues was something he should have prioritized and done better himself. It just seems like I read a lot of pretty decently articulated responses with their views and the why, etc. and they're just waved away and brought back to the chicken and egg revenue game.

 

[Sweatred]

I guess you are willing to discuss financials, but that's the divide, you're being told it was beyond that and it was before the time you feel it was. It just seems like I read a lot of pretty decently articulated responses with their views and the why, etc. and they're just waved away and brought back to the chicken and egg revenue game.

You are right- I disregard most of the excuse stuff like Alfy, cold, far, expensive etc. Those are reasons but they are also excuses and it’s impossible to filter them apart from one another because the nature of an excuse is the person probably believes it to be true when it often isn’t.

Where does the Alfy thing go ? Does it last 5 years ? 10 ? Eternity ? It’s to slippery, vague and intertwined with excuses that people will never admit or acknowledge like being lazy or frugal. It’s a lot like exercise, people say they don’t have time or what ever.

I am interested in how much revenue this team has vs how much they spend. Somewhere in there is a number that would provide some insight about how much revenue our owner spends relative to other teams. For example in 2018-19 he had around $125 of revenue and spent around $75 on salaries. The Canadian spent around $78 and had $235. I don’t know how debt, his own decisions, levies etc impact those numbers but I would like too.

For example, it may be possible that our owner spends (top 5-10) the highest proportion of revenue on team salaries. Maybe he doesn’t? But there is more to it than the Sens 2019-20 tear down payroll and 15 stale Scrooge comments a day.

 

[Leafmealone11]

The sens just need a big time money bags to buy the team like what happened in Arizona...

 

[Alf Silfversson]

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion with you when you start every posts with a FFS or insulting GIF...

Let’s move on .. your right. Fans are great, owner sucks.

It's not a discussion when you flat out ignore what other people say, and return to your invalidated point.

So you have a great day imagining Eugene Melnyk riding roughshod over Colin White on a purple unicorn to bring in fans that STILL won't pay for such a quality product.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You are right- I disregard most of the excuse stuff like Alfy, cold, far, expensive etc. Those are reasons but they are also excuses and it’s impossible to filter them apart from one another because the nature of an excuse is the person probably believes it to be true when it often isn’t.

Where does the Alfy thing go ? Does it last 5 years ? 10 ? Eternity ? It’s to slippery, vague and intertwined with excuses that people will never admit or acknowledge like being lazy or frugal. It’s a lot like exercise, people say they don’t have time or what ever.

I am interested in how much revenue this team has vs how much they spend. Somewhere in there is a number that would provide some insight about how much revenue our owner spends relative to other teams. For example in 2018-19 he had around $125 of revenue and spent around $75 on salaries. The Canadian spent around $78 and had $235. I don’t know how debt, his own decisions, levies etc impact those numbers but I would like too.

For example, it may be possible that our owner spends (top 5-10) the highest proportion of revenue on team salaries. Maybe he doesn’t? But there is more to it than the Sens 2019-20 tear down payroll and 15 stale Scrooge comments a day.

I see where you stand and i respectfully disagree. I just think you are incapable of connecting that things can matter to sports fans beyond what just happens out on the ice. The numbers reflect it and can't be disputed imo.

It goes on because it was a microcosm for how the organization has been run. It's Eugene's oligarchy and everyone else can either bend over or gtfo. He's demonstrated that like a 100 times now. He's also incapable of listening to valid criticism as we know and he just fires them off in to the sun or cuts off access to the media.

I hear you on the financials, that can be an interesting subject in itself.

It's just being realistic as a Sens fan. Everyone knows they aren't adding shit and the GM spent last summer focused almost solely on saving cash, so every discussion does get neutered with knowing things aren't realistic. Also, the guy has been exposed as a pretty terrible person who treats people poorly, so who cares if he's insulted on the internet. I know I hope that line jumping pos gets his karma one day.

 

[Sweatred]

I see where you stand and i respectfully disagree. I just think you are incapable of connecting that things can matter to sports fans beyond what just happens out on the ice.

It goes on because it was a microcosm for how the organization has been run. It's Eugene's oligarchy and everyone else can either bend over or gtfo. He's demonstrated that like a 100 times now. He's also incapable of listening to valid criticism as we know and he just fires them off in to the sun or cuts off access to the media.

I hear you on the financials, that can be an interesting subject in itself.

It's just being realistic as a Sens fan. Everyone knows they aren't adding shit and the GM spent last summer focused almost solely on saving cash, so every discussion does get neutered with knowing things aren't realistic. Also, the guy has been exposed as a pretty terrible person who treats people poorly, so who cares if he's insulted on the internet. I know I hope that line jumping pos gets his karma one day.

Fair enough ... I understand that the issues annoy people and limit attendance. I also know we will have attendance issues in the future when these issues go away - so somewhere in there are a combination of real issues and useless excuses. There isn’t really any point to try to split those hairs. I don’t like EM, I know people who worked for him - I get it.

Let’s say we found out that EM spends the 6th highest percentage of available revenue on team salaries in the league? How would that influence your view of how cheap he is ? Let’s say the Rangers spend the least amount of revenue on team salaries ? How generous does they make them look ? There are lots of ways of looking at this other than dollars below the cap.

 

[Blotto71]

That year EM spent $74 of the CAP.

Please clarify this statement - I don't want to assume anything.

 

[Spartachat]

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion with you when you start every posts with a FFS or insulting GIF...

Let’s move on .. your right. Fans are great, owner sucks.

Well you do know the old saying "the customer is always right". You didn't see Bill Gates calling out customers when they didn't like Window 7. They adapt and change their product until consumers are satisfied and will consume their product. Melnyk is selling a sub-par product and customers have a right to complain.

 

[Sweatred]

Please clarify this statement - I don't want to assume anything.

I can’t remember if we spent $74-76 million in 2018 (The ECF year)

 

[Blotto71]

I can’t remember if we spent $74-76 million in 2018 (The ECF year)

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Sweatred]

Well you do know the old saying "the customer is always right". You didn't see Bill Gates calling out customers when they didn't like Window 7. They adapt and change their product until consumers are satisfied and will consume their product. Melnyk is selling a sub-par product and customers have a right to complain.

I hardly call a team playing in the ECF “sub par”.

 

[Spartachat]

I hardly call a team in the ECF “sub par”.

The product right now is sub-par. I don't recall a large backlash from fans when the Sens were in the ECF. The team was probably profitable at the time too.

 

[Sweatred]

The product right now is sub-par. I don't recall a large backlash from fans when the Sens were in the ECF. The team was probably profitable at the time too.

The playoff games were not sold out ... the lack of attendance carried into next season and EM went off at the outdoor classic and things were in a full burn.

I think what we saw last year was close to rock bottom for tearing this down. Even if we kept MS his cap hit would be hard to work around in 3-4 years when this team might start to peak.

There really isn’t a lot of money to buy our way out of problems ... so limiting negative value has to be a priority

 

[Wondercarrot]

You are right- I disregard most of the excuse stuff like Alfy, cold, far, expensive etc. Those are reasons but they are also excuses and it’s impossible to filter them apart from one another because the nature of an excuse is the person probably believes it to be true when it often isn’t.

Where does the Alfy thing go ? Does it last 5 years ? 10 ? Eternity ? It’s to slippery, vague and intertwined with excuses that people will never admit or acknowledge like being lazy or frugal. It’s a lot like exercise, people say they don’t have time or what ever.

I am interested in how much revenue this team has vs how much they spend. Somewhere in there is a number that would provide some insight about how much revenue our owner spends relative to other teams. For example in 2018-19 he had around $125 of revenue and spent around $75 on salaries. The Canadian spent around $78 and had $235. I don’t know how debt, his own decisions, levies etc impact those numbers but I would like too.

For example, it may be possible that our owner spends (top 5-10) the highest proportion of revenue on team salaries. Maybe he doesn’t? But there is more to it than the Sens 2019-20 tear down payroll and 15 stale Scrooge comments a day.

you keep saying a lot of inaccurate things, and discounting the actual attachment fans have to players. Also, it’s not just Alfie (twice), it’s the manner in which the organization has conducted itself in the handling so many things; players, scouts, coaches, office staff, executives, business community, charitable foundation, the media etc.
Also with respect to money spent vs cap etc. You keep saying they spent $73 million in 2017. They did not, the spent $65 with LTIR contracts factored in. Here are the two year previous:

2018-2019
Cap Spread in millions $61-80
Actual spend $43 million

At the end of 2018-2019 the sens had the most cap space available at over $20 million.
$63,530,833 against the cap and $43,637,500 in real dollars.
The next closest team (cap space) was Winnipeg and their actual spend was $65 million, the rest of the bottom feeders were $63+ million

2017-2018 (ECF year)
Cap spread $55-75
Actual Spend $65
- this was the year they “went for it”

and lest you think it’s just whiny fans who don’t spend who think this state of affairs is normal:

The Senators are violating the spirit of the CBA

Also on a personal level (since it seems super important that everyone has spent as much as you see fit before they can complain), I’ve spent a fortune on this team over 25 years, and as stated before Menlyk is the only reason I canceled my tickets last year, which I’ve had since the team came back to Ottawa.
He’s a terrible owner, and worse person.