GDT: Semifinal • Jan. 3 • United States 1, Canada 4 • Part 2

[cska78]

You don't own a business do you? I love altruistic people get when it isn't their own dime.

it's a World Championship, but that is like cherry pikcing, mostly the upstate americans should be blamed for sitting on their ***** and not supporting their nation.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

The outdoor facility notion is bunk. How much development is done that way? Elite players will find a way to get what they need when it comes to ice time (indoors), coaching, and equipment in both countries.

I agree, the outdoor scenario is romantic, but it isn't what drives the system.

What drives the system is something that can't be replicated with any amount of money, facilities, or programs.

What drives hockey in Canada is a pure love of the game, born into us at birth. When I think of my top ten moments as a kid, they all involve hockey. A goal I scored to win a tournament, a big Provincials win. When I went to the library to get a book when I was 8, it was always a hockey book. I learned to read by reading the Hockey News - that's no lie.

My heroes as a kid were Ken Dryden, Wayne Gretzky, and Yvon Lambert (I know, Lambert...but it's true).

It's like I imagine football in most of the states to be. I like football, but I could live without it. I seriously would fall into a deep depression if you took hockey away from me.

No organization is going to be able to create that in any short span (50 years or less) amount of time. It's cultural, not just a sport or a game.

Canada can put money into an Olympic sport like skiing, for example, and maybe pull off a gold medal. But it'll never be the same here as it is in Austria. Same for other countries putting their efforts and funds into hockey.

I am not saying this to be arrogant at all, just to explain why these kids don't just want to win, they have to win. It's a lot of pressure, but what goes with it if they do win is becoming household names in Canada for the rest of their lives.

John Slaney, anyone?

 

[missinthejets]

The outdoor facility notion is bunk. How much development is done that way? Elite players will find a way to get what they need when it comes to ice time (indoors), coaching, and equipment in both countries.

what situation is easier to teach a kid how to skate, taking him down the block to the outdoor rink whenever you want or trying to find an indoor facility that's free to try teaching your kid how to skate? That's where the big difference comes in, Canadian kids can play the game very young outside and if they show aptitude at it can then move onto to more of the higher end development spectrum, that's something you just aren't going to see in places that don't get ice and don't have an abundance of facilities for the public to use

 

[Rabid Ranger]

what situation is easier to teach a kid how to skate, taking him down the block to the outdoor rink whenever you want or trying to find an indoor facility that's free to try teaching your kid how to skate? That's where the big difference comes in, Canadian kids can play the game very young outside and if they show aptitude at it can then move onto to more of the higher end development spectrum, that's something you just aren't going to see in places that don't get ice and don't have an abundance of facilities for the public to use

I don't deny that on average, Canadians as a whole have an easier time finding ways to play the game affordably. That being said, IMO, those opportunites are not that significant in the development of a kid wired to play the sport. Once that's discovered, the shinny days are a blip on the radar.

 

[Frank the Tank]

The outdoor facility notion is bunk. How much development is done that way? Elite players will find a way to get what they need when it comes to ice time (indoors), coaching, and equipment in both countries.

I think you underestimate how much non-organized practice/play has on the impact of a player developing a) the base skills required to become elite one day and b) an intense 24/7 passion for the sport. In addition to elite natural talent (i.e., genetics), one needs the opportunities to accumulate the thousands of practice hours it takes to become an elite player. An easily available outdoor ice surface allows young players to practice almost whenever they want compared to an indoor facility, which is only available a relatively limited amount of time. Moreover, easy access to a sheet of ice exposes more kids in the neighborhood to the sport of hockey, which then funnels more players into an organized system that will turn the ones with natural talent into elite player.

I know growing up in a small town in Canada, I played hockey outside with my friends about 2-3x as much the amount of time I spent playing organized hockey all the way until I graduated high school. We did not need our parents to drive us to the rink or rent the ice time, we just knew there was a pick-up game at the local outdoor rink after school and another one after dinner. So you grabbed your skates, gloves, and stick and trekked down to local rink and played for hours at a time.

 

[therealdeal]

Probably because the whole "humble Canadian" persona is at best a myth and at worst a farce.

I would say the humble Canadian persona is true in person, and not regarding hockey. I would say the average Team Canada hockey fan is arrogant, at least the ones that post on here.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I would say the humble Canadian persona is true in person, and not regarding hockey. I would say the average Team Canada hockey fan is arrogant, at least the ones that post on here.

How do you think fans from other teams would be if they had Canadas record?

That may make the Canadians look humble and quiet.

 

[therealdeal]

How do you think fans from other teams would be if they had Canadas record?

That may make the Canadians look humble and quiet.

Fans in general are pretty stupid, and a winning record doesn't help that, I agree. But it doesn't change the initial post.

 

[Roughneck]

The outdoor facility notion is bunk. How much development is done that way? Elite players will find a way to get what they need when it comes to ice time (indoors), coaching, and equipment in both countries.

Bunk? Please. This is like saying that promoting education from within the home is bunk because elite students will find everything they need at school. Ignoring the advantages a large amount of outdoor facilities provides is ignoring most development that occurs away from the arena, and if you ask any pro hockey player, that's a lot of development. Sure some players can achieve without it, but it makes it that much harder.

In addition to simply providing an effectively unlimited amount of individual practice time, more outdoor rinks help grow a hockey culture, which in turn helps produce better hockey players. A greater hockey culture leads to more people playing, more people volunteering, more people donating equipment etc. which eliminates obstacles young players can face.

 

[CarlWinslow]

The outdoor facility notion is bunk. How much development is done that way? Elite players will find a way to get what they need when it comes to ice time (indoors), coaching, and equipment in both countries.

It's not the development side of things. The outdoor facilities help promote interest. In Canada, there are outdoor rinks almost by the block. This presents an opportunity for young kids to play the game and develop a real interest before their parents have to decide to sink a boat load of money into it.

Like I said, do you really think American families are going to throw their savings into hockey gear before a kid ever even has a chance to play? Sure, some will but not enough to push that program to a Canadian level.

In Canada, any small town of moderate size has its own indoor and outdoor rinks. It's just an atmosphere that the US cannot duplicate.

 

[CarlWinslow]

Probably because the whole "humble Canadian" persona is at best a myth and at worst a farce.

I think the humble Canadian persona disappears on these boards because a lot of posters from different nationalities aren't humble either. It works every which way.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

It's not the development side of things. The outdoor facilities help promote interest. In Canada, there are outdoor rinks almost by the block. This presents an opportunity for young kids to play the game and develop a real interest before their parents have to decide to sink a boat load of money into it.

Like I said, do you really think American families are going to throw their savings into hockey gear before a kid ever even has a chance to play? Sure, some will but not enough to push that program to a Canadian level.

In Canada, any small town of moderate size has its own indoor and outdoor rinks. It's just an atmosphere that the US cannot duplicate.

Not even moderate in size. The town next to mine has fewer than 100 people and about 15 of them are kids, but they just put a new roof on their rink last year, at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars. They did it because they want those kids to have the opportunity to skate every day after school.

This is borderline insane, but does a lot to explain the passion for hockey.

 

[CarlWinslow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCreary,_Manitoba

This place and every other town like it has an indoor rink. What do you think the main attraction for the kids of this town is?

So, the point is, hockey is such a part of Canadian culture that you can't duplicate it with money or programs. Every kid from this town and every town like it will probably play and skate that rink because that's what we do.

 

[wbaker]

Mr Johnson and Norm talk CAN USA Semi-final.

In preparation for a USA victory over Canada in the 2011 IIHF World Junior Championships, Mr Johnson seeks PR advice from Norm, the office hockey guy.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCreary,_Manitoba

This place and every other town like it has an indoor rink. What do you think the main attraction for the kids of this town is?

So, the point is, hockey is such a part of Canadian culture that you can't duplicate it with money or programs. Every kid from this town and every town like it will probably play and skate that rink because that's what we do.

This village has an indoor rink, and still uses it almost daily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duval,_Saskatchewan

 

[CarlWinslow]

This village has an indoor rink, and still uses it almost daily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duval,_Saskatchewan

Exactly. And people wonder why we are so nuts about hockey. If you look at a satellite map of Winnipeg, it is full of outdoor rinks. I could conceivably walk from my apartment to 4 outdoor rinks and an indoor rink in 10 minutes or less.

 

[sbkbghockey]

The tournament was played in Buffalo, Ontario

The tournament is a much larger event in Canada than in the US. Hopefully one day it'll get that same exposure in the US but until then even if the tournament was played in Miami, Florida we'd still see a 70-30 split in the crowd in favor of Canadian fans.

 

[Pattypred]

I agree, the outdoor scenario is romantic, but it isn't what drives the system.

What drives the system is something that can't be replicated with any amount of money, facilities, or programs.

What drives hockey in Canada is a pure love of the game, born into us at birth. When I think of my top ten moments as a kid, they all involve hockey. A goal I scored to win a tournament, a big Provincials win. When I went to the library to get a book when I was 8, it was always a hockey book. I learned to read by reading the Hockey News - that's no lie.

My heroes as a kid were Ken Dryden, Wayne Gretzky, and Yvon Lambert (I know, Lambert...but it's true).

It's like I imagine football in most of the states to be. I like football, but I could live without it. I seriously would fall into a deep depression if you took hockey away from me.

No organization is going to be able to create that in any short span (50 years or less) amount of time. It's cultural, not just a sport or a game.

Canada can put money into an Olympic sport like skiing, for example, and maybe pull off a gold medal. But it'll never be the same here as it is in Austria. Same for other countries putting their efforts and funds into hockey.

I am not saying this to be arrogant at all, just to explain why these kids don't just want to win, they have to win. It's a lot of pressure, but what goes with it if they do win is becoming household names in Canada for the rest of their lives.

John Slaney, anyone?

That sir is one of the best explanations I have ever read.

While I only found hockey recently (1998), I can understand a little of the passion for the game. I cannot skate a lick but find the sport thrilling to watch. I watch on television, internet, single A hockey games, pick-up games, kids games, whatever I can find.

Thank you for putting into words how you feel about hockey. I, for one, truly appreciate it.

PattyPred
Southern gal who loves hockey (especially the Predators) and Canadian Captain Ryan Ellis

 

[Roughneck]

Canada can put money into an Olympic sport like skiing, for example, and maybe pull off a gold medal. But it'll never be the same here as it is in Austria. Same for other countries putting their efforts and funds into hockey.

Most of Canada's top athletes' first love was probably hockey anyway. Alex Bilodeau wanted to be a hockey player but his mom made him take up skiing so they could spend more time together as a family (because of his brother). The only reason Cindy Klassen got into speed skating was because she was cut from the women's national team (Christine Nesbitt didn't make it that far but also turned to speed skating only after a future in hockey stagnated).

I imagine New Zealand's sports teams are also full of people who's dream as a youngin was to play for the All Blacks before they searched for success in other sports. And its that sort of attitude and culture is why they have such success year in and year out (and while their performances at the World Cups helps to keep the arrogance to a minimum, rugby fans around the world generally take an 'anybody but NZ' attitude because the last thing anybody wants is All Black fans to have validation of their superiority in the sport, which they'll always bring up because the sport means so much to them. It sounds familiar...

 

[Evil Doctor]

According to Wikipedia there is almost 500,000 Canadian registered players, which is 1.5% of our population.

The US has almost 466,000, which is .15%.

If they had even .5% that would be 1,500,000 players. Three times what we would have.

You can't be that naive to think we would dominate under those circumstances.

Well, lets see, 20% of the NHL is American and only .15% of Americans play hockey.

Just over 52% of NHL players are Canadian and 1.5% of Canadians play hockey.

With those numbers, seems to be more quality coming out of the USA.

0.15/20 = 0.0075

1.5/52 = 0.02885

Lol what?

10 times as many Canadians as a % play hockey.

20% of the league is American
52% is Canadian.

What can't you grasp here?

Okay, if people are going slag one another using faulty logic over numbers, lets start with the correct numbers...

Population of Canada: 33,759,742
No.of registered hockey players: 577,077

Population of United States: 310,232,863
No. of registered hockey players: 474,592

Of note, Canada is one NINTH the population of the US, not one tenth. It should also be noted that these are the only two countries in the world that have more than 100,000 registered hockey players. Now slag away....

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think you underestimate how much non-organized practice/play has on the impact of a player developing a) the base skills required to become elite one day and b) an intense 24/7 passion for the sport. In addition to elite natural talent (i.e., genetics), one needs the opportunities to accumulate the thousands of practice hours it takes to become an elite player. An easily available outdoor ice surface allows young players to practice almost whenever they want compared to an indoor facility, which is only available a relatively limited amount of time. Moreover, easy access to a sheet of ice exposes more kids in the neighborhood to the sport of hockey, which then funnels more players into an organized system that will turn the ones with natural talent into elite player.

I know growing up in a small town in Canada, I played hockey outside with my friends about 2-3x as much the amount of time I spent playing organized hockey all the way until I graduated high school. We did not need our parents to drive us to the rink or rent the ice time, we just knew there was a pick-up game at the local outdoor rink after school and another one after dinner. So you grabbed your skates, gloves, and stick and trekked down to local rink and played for hours at a time.

I love outdoor rinks and pick-up hockey also, and your post reminded me of a certain time in my life (man do I feel old posting that!) BUT we should take a look at how many good players are coming out of Vancouver, Vancouver Island, etc Coastal B.C. areas. Heck include the Okanagan and Kamloops in that because there's a significant lack of outdoor rinks in this area as well.

The players coming out of this area do so because of resources (coaching, no. of indoor rinks, etc) and as much as love of the game might be the reason, as per puckguys great post, it's still almost entirely money driven. Look closely and you won't find many elite level players from poor families. 1 area Hockey Canada, and Hockey BC in particular, need to do a better job getting kids playing. If Money wasn't a limiting factor I believe Canada would win almost every competition, at every level, almost every year. There's many thousands of kids, some of them great athletes, who grow up loving hockey and NOT playing hockey because of money. I grew up with a few of those kids.

 

[SMoneyMonkey]

Well, lets see, 20% of the NHL is American and only .15% of Americans play hockey.

Just over 52% of NHL players are Canadian and 1.5% of Canadians play hockey.

With those numbers, seems to be more quality coming out of the USA.

Because those aren't the numbers you should be using... The No. of registered players is all the matters, and those are rather close in both countries but Canada as over twice as many players in the NHL.

With your ... odd mathematics then the World would probably end up being better than either of the US or Canada.

 

[Scotty Malone]

I love outdoor rinks and pick-up hockey also, and your post reminded me of a certain time in my life (man do I feel old posting that!) BUT we should take a look at how many good players are coming out of Vancouver, Vancouver Island, etc Coastal B.C. areas. Heck include the Okanagan and Kamloops in that because there's a significant lack of outdoor rinks in this area as well.

The players coming out of this area do so because of resources (coaching, no. of indoor rinks, etc) and as much as love of the game might be the reason, as per puckguys great post, it's still almost entirely money driven. Look closely and you won't find many elite level players from poor families. 1 area Hockey Canada, and Hockey BC in particular, need to do a better job getting kids playing. If Money wasn't a limiting factor I believe Canada would win almost every competition, at every level, almost every year. There's many thousands of kids, some of them great athletes, who grow up loving hockey and NOT playing hockey because of money. I grew up with a few of those kids.

I totally agree here. There are 1000's of kids in Canada right now with pure raw skill, that dont ever get to live up to their full potential. To play hockey in Canada you have to have parents with a lot of money.

It's a little late now. But I made the cut for every team I tried out for. Not once could my parents afford for me to play.

 

[doakacola*]

If you want to rate quality over quantity, it should be based on the total number of hockey players, which means 52% compared to 20 % of 500 000 compared to 466 000... in that case, it's not even a contest, there is much better quality coming out of Canada.

As for the idea that the US would dominate if Hockey was as important as in Canada, it's total BS... with this train of thought, China would dominate every sport, including basketball.

Don't be insane, if all things are equal between the two countries (interest and infrastructure) the US would dominate any matchups based on player pool size alone. Note I said dominate not win every game played.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I totally agree here. There are 1000's of kids in Canada right now with pure raw skill, that dont ever get to live up to their full potential. To play hockey in Canada you have to have parents with a lot of money.

It's a little late now. But I made the cut for every team I tried out for. Not once could my parents afford for me to play.

I respectfully disagree. As someone who has been involved in Hockey Canada, I know there are ways for a kid to get subsidized and receive financial assistance if they need it. No kid would get left out if he wants to play.

If you are good enough, you will be found.

That's my experience, but I do come from a pretty small town, I admit.