Dreger: Seguin extension getting close to completion

[DanM]

This just 100% shows you dont watch Dallas play. Seguin is very very underrated defensively. Honestly probably Dallas 2nd best defensive forward after Faksa. He isnt Bergeron/Kopitar level but he is well above average

I 100% watch Dallas play. I will admit Seguin has been better as of late with his defensive play, but I still think he is average. Mind you both players played on teams who are not great defensively.

I still take JT for his overall game, including defence.

Also, have you seen the players JT dragged around lol he turned them into legitimate players, and still had 84 points himself.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Ok fair

Seguin in dallas

384 points in 387games =.99

JT

372 points in 378=.98

playoffs

Seguin

3 points in 7 games=.42

JT

17 points in 18 games=.94

That has been Seguin has been in Dallas. I still believe you can count their careers, they were both young players, and both had to go through growing pains and learn scoring at the NHL level. However, if people want to only use the time since Seguin broke out (not JT's fault he was better sooner, and played a larger role) that's the numbers.

Waitttt a second. I thought that one playoff series does not matter? That is the excuse I get about Matthews.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

I 100% watch Dallas play. I will admit Seguin has been better as of late with his defensive play, but I still think he is average. Mind you both players played on teams who are not great defensively.

I still take JT for his overall game, including defence.

Also, have you seen the players JT dragged around lol he turned them into legitimate players, and still had 84 points himself.

Sure you do sir.

 

[DanM]

Waitttt a second. I thought that one playoff series does not matter? That is the excuse I get about Matthews.

It doesn't

You guys didn't want me to include all the playoffs. I originally had them all, but you wanted only his time in Dallas, so that is what I did.

He still doesn't produce better regardless

 

[DanM]

Sure you do sir.

Riiigghhtt

Because you know what I do watch and don't watch. You don't even know what I do for a living with numbers, and how I break down a players game.

I literally don't care if you prefer Seguin, he is a great player. If all you want to do is insult, that's your own business as well.

 

[LT]

It doesn't

You guys didn't want me to include all the playoffs. I originally had them all, but you wanted only his time in Dallas, so that is what I did.

He still doesn't produce better regardless

Why bother to look at whole careers and not the last five years? What relevance do seasons from 7-8 years ago have on who's better now? Does this mean Backstrom, Getzlaf, and even Martin St. Louis are all better than Tavares?

We've been round and round with the playoff argument too. Sample size, the conditions, etc. It's just not a good argument to use for Seguin until we see what he can do when healthy and on his current team.

 

[DanM]

Why bother to look at whole careers and not the last five years? What relevance do seasons from 7-8 years ago have on who's better now? Does this mean Backstrom, Getzlaf, and even Martin St. Louis are all better than Tavares?

We've been round and round with the playoff argument too. Sample size, the conditions, etc. It's just not a good argument to use for Seguin until we see what he can do when healthy and on his current team.

Again, it was responding to a poster who was going on about careers.

I also did the numbers for the years he was only in Dallas (as that was what the last poster wanted) or I can just do last year where he was still outscoring him.

I mean what does it take for people to not just blurt out a response about who is better? the numbers, over whatever sample size, are not in Seguins favour, which is fine lol they are both fantastic players.

And I do agree with what you are saying btw, I just hate when people say moronic things like "X player is better AINEC" when they have zero idea, or at least come off that way.

I also feel like on HF boards, it's very trendy to discount many stats when it does not suit exactly what you want. Whatever sample size I use won't matter, because they will wait until the one year that maybe JT falters, and Seguin dominates, and they will use that sample, and basically ignore every other year he was not better. It is silly.

Very selective on here.

 

[Dustin]

Good news for Dallas. It's hard to replace guys like Seguin.

 

[LT]

Again, it was responding to a poster who was going on about careers.

I also did the numbers for the years he was only in Dallas (as that was what the last poster wanted) or I can just do last year where he was still outscoring him.

I mean what does it take for people to not just blurt out a response about who is better? the numbers, over whatever sample size, are not in Seguins favour, which is fine lol they are both fantastic players.

And I do agree with what you are saying btw, I just hate when people say moronic things like "X player is better AINEC" when they have zero idea, or at least come off that way.

Just as many people have been saying the opposite as well, though. Why not take a stab at arguing with them too?

Their numbers since Seguin got to Dallas are pretty much exactly the same statistically (again ignoring playoffs for reasons stated above). I think everyone can agree that at worst, they are very similar offensively and production wise. They have different strengths (Seguin's speed and shot, Tavares' ability to boost his teammates), but both are highly productive and top 10 centers offensively.

Defensively is where the disagreement seems to comes from. Neither are going to ever contend for the Selke, but both are respectable. Seguin improved dramatically under Hitchcock, to the point where I would give him the edge defensively based on last year. I need to see him maintain that without Hitchcock around, though.

Honestly it's really just a meaningless argument at the end of the day. Both are top tier franchise centers and every team in the league would love to have either. I'm sure they'll end up with nearly similar contracts, as well.

 

[DanM]

Just as many people have been saying the opposite as well, though. Why not take a stab at arguing with them too?

Their numbers since Seguin got to Dallas are pretty much exactly the same statistically (again ignoring playoffs for reasons stated above). I think everyone can agree that at worst, they are very similar offensively and production wise. They have different strengths (Seguin's speed and shot, Tavares' ability to boost his teammates), but both are highly productive and top 10 centers offensively.

Defensively is where the disagreement seems to comes from. Neither are going to ever contend for the Selke, but both are respectable. Seguin improved dramatically under Hitchcock, to the point where I would give him the edge defensively based on last year. I need to see him maintain that without Hitchcock around, though.

Honestly it's really just a meaningless argument at the end of the day. Both are top tier franchise centers and every team in the league would love to have either. I'm sure they'll end up with nearly similar contracts, as well.

Not a bad way to look at it.

I just get sick of posters just DUMPING on players because they prefer them over another. Also, yes it maybe a little useless to compare 7-8 years, but they are games still played in a career, and at the end of the day will count. However, I agree with what you said.

The one thing I will say, I do like JT's shot better. I really think many people underrate it, and I am not sure why. His power and accuracy, not to mention hand eye from Lacrosse, is pretty lethal.

With reference to the playoffs, yes Seguin could use a larger sample size, but has still played more playoff games overall in their careers. You have to admit, going almost a PPG in the playoffs counts for something, and just because somebody else (since Dallas) has a smaller sample size, JT has been very very impressive.

But yes, I believe Seguin will improve in this area with more time.

 

[LT]

Not a bad way to look at it.

I just get sick of posters just DUMPING on players because they prefer them over another. Also, yes it maybe a little useless to compare 7-8 years, but they are games still played in a career, and at the end of the day will count. However, I agree with what you said.

The one thing I will say, I do like JT's shot better. I really think many people underrate it, and I am not sure why. His power and accuracy, not to mention hand eye from Lacrosse, is pretty lethal.

Haven't really watched Tavares for his shot much, but I believe it.

Benn, on the otherhand... He's got one of the best shots in the league.

 

[Saidin]

This thread needs some /60 stats.

 

[DanM]

Haven't really watched Tavares for his shot much, but I believe it.

Benn, on the otherhand... He's got one of the best shots in the league.

Benn is unreal, one of my fav players in the league TBH

 

[WhatWhat]

Ok fair

Seguin in dallas

384 points in 387games =.99

JT

372 points in 378=.98

playoffs

Seguin

3 points in 7 games=.42

JT

17 points in 18 games=.94

That has been Seguin has been in Dallas. I still believe you can count their careers, they were both young players, and both had to go through growing pains and learn scoring at the NHL level. However, if people want to only use the time since Seguin broke out (not JT's fault he was better sooner, and played a larger role) that's the numbers.

While that is true that has zero meaning for answering the question "Who is better today". Taking point totals from 7 years back for talking about a skill today give no predictive power. Player go through ups and downs and you have to look at their most recent years. Players like Mark Sheifele, been a top tier C for 2 years now. If im comparing players to him to see who will be the best today im sure as hell not counting his years scoring < 60 points because he is simply twice the player now than he was at the time.

You are acting like its debatable between the time frame you offered to start and the time frame that starts in Dallas. There is no debate between those 2. Sure you could use maybe the last 3 years vs the last 5 if you have an argument for why 3 might be better than 5 but to use years when they were 19 to prove who is better at 27 is just dumb.

 

[DanM]

This thread needs some /60 stats.

JT had 54points/1240.1x60=2.61/60 even strength
84points/1634x60=3.08/60 total

Seguin 51points/1329.7x60=2.30/60 even strength
78points/1715x60=2.72/60 total
I multiplied each players TOI at even strength by games. I then took the total production even strength/TOI even strength x60.

I am pretty sure that's how it works. I also remember JT had a crazy slump to end the season.

Maybe I am still looking at it wrong, but this was from last year. I still don't see the argument

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This again? No he is not, Dallas without Seguin is far worse than the Islanders without Tavares.

Everybody will find out quick, fast and in a hurry come October that your statement is false

 

[thadd]

8 years... times......... 1 billion dollars!

 

[Phil Kessels Hot Dog]

Seguin and Tavares are on the same tier. He should get the same money, add 7 Mil for the 8th year to bring the aav down to 10.5

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Ofcourse he will re sign there

Itll be around 10ish.. Would get more on open market but 10ish in Dallas is a crap load compared to many places so its kinda a discount he takes... Like the Tampa boys and stuff

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Shocker that JT/Leafs talk has littered yet another thread.

Cmon

 

[DanM]

Shocker that JT/Leafs talk has littered yet another thread.

Cmon

You are right, my apologies. Sometimes it's hard to not take the bait in certain conversations.

But you are 100% correct

 

[Cleetus]

Shocker that JT/Leafs talk has littered yet another thread.

Cmon

more like other fan bases throwing there 2 cents in that he is better than Tavares...... thats how it started. no one wants to see one of there star players get pi$$ed on for no reason at all.

 

[DanM]

more like other fan bases throwing there 2 cents in that he is better than Tavares...... thats how it started. no one wants to see one of there star players get pi$$ed on for no reason at all.

Yeah, that hockeyguy1967 or whatever his handle is, he likes to stir the pot. I am also at fault for biting.

 

[Satan]

Tavares couldn't even tie up Seguin's skates.

Total bum. Look at how NYI did with him as the captain. What a great leader lmao

 

[JC0720]

Do you think Dallas will want to pay him more than Benn? I'd like to think that Benn wouldn't care seeing how he's paid a tidy sum vs a contentious contract where he's only 6-7m or something like that... but sometimes things like this matter more than we'd like to think they do.

I would think Benn wouldn't sweat the money because he cant buy a Stanley Cup with the difference. If paying Seguin more to lock him up brings you a step closer to winning, why would it matter?